Miss California USA sparks controversy over gay marriage pageant question.

[Kaosaur]

semantics....

deist=god/something greater than humans/universe creator

About the only thing that term describes, is that he didn't ascribe to any particular dogma.

Deist "free thinkers" of the time pretty much believe that God created the Universe and that's IT. No other interaction with any of it other than its creation.

 

[freakchylde]

Deist "free thinkers" of the time pretty much believe that God created the Universe and that's IT. No other interaction with any of it other than its creation.

Not arguing this. But the fact is, regardless what you (as an individual) refer to it as, the reference is to something greater than us, minus the dogma of a particular religion.

Just getting annoying to see a circular argument over a semantical difference, in a discussion that I'd normally enjoy seeing.

 

[edgeofthorns]

Who exactly, do you believe the Founding Fathers to be? As I pointed out, Washington was a Deist (by appearance and perhaps an atheist at heart), Jefferson hated the Clergy, though was perhaps a Deist, and Franklin was a well documented Atheist.

I'm pretty certain these were the 3 most influential "Founding Fathers". Yes, there were some pretty important people who believed in God, like Sam Adams, but he does have a pretty good Beer.

Nailz, I don't know what kind of books, websites, etc. that you've been reading, but I'm not buying for one minute that George Washington was an atheist.

~Brian~

 

[edgeofthorns]

Here's part of my collection of quotes from some of our founding fathers:

“If we will not be governed by God, we must be governed by tyrants.”
William Penn

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."
Thomas Jefferson

“Natural liberty is a gift of the beneficent Creator to the whole human race, and…civil liberty is founded in that; and cannot be wrested from any people, without the most manifest violation of justice.”
Alexander Hamilton

“In the supposed state of nature, all men are equally bound by the laws of nature, or to speak more properly, the laws of the Creator.”
Samuel Adams

“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.”
John Adams

“Therefore let us choose life, that we and our seed may live, by obeying His voice and cleaving to Him, for He is our life and our prosperity.”
John Winthrop

“Religion in a family is at once its brightest ornament & its best security.”
Samuel Adams

“All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?”
Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention

“It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.”
John Adams

“It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.”
James Madison

“[E]very man, conduction himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.”
George Washington

I'm sorry guys, but these men don't sound like "athiest" to me.

Also, refer to the link below.

http://http://www.thisnation.com/library/washington-thanksgiving.html

~Brian~

 

[lady_space]

Nailz, I don't know what kind of books, websites, etc. that you've been reading, but I'm not buying for one minute that George Washington was an atheist.

But why not? Is there evidence that points to another conclusion?

Shaye

 

[edgeofthorns]

But why not? Is there evidence that points to another conclusion?

Shaye

Well, I'm trying to give some examples above.

~Brian~

 

[lady_space]

Well, I'm trying to give some examples above.

I was just making the point that you should do just that.

The fact of the matter is that there is 'evidence" to support many different conclusions. Were all of the "founding fathers" atheists as we define that term today? It doesn't look like it. But to claim they were all Christians is preposterous.

Personally, I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't demand I live by their beliefs, which sadly is not what most people seem to think should happen.

 

[edgeofthorns]

I was just making the point that you should do just that.

The fact of the matter is that there is 'evidence" to support many different conclusions. Were all of the "founding fathers" atheists as we define that term today? It doesn't look like it. But to claim they were all Christians is preposterous.

Personally, I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't demand I live by their beliefs, which sadly is not what most people seem to think should happen.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

~Brian~

 

[bowflexin]

I dont think this is a big deal at all he asked the question, so if he didnt want to hear the truth maybe he shouldnt have asked. He only asked cuz he thought she was just gonna say she thought gay marriage was acceptable, and that doesnt make her ignorant, stupid or anything else.

 

[jaimek]

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson (letter to his nephew)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
Thomas Jefferson

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Thomas Jefferson, Treaty of Tripoli

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (this is where "separation of church and state" comes from.)

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."
Benjamin Franklin

Ben Franklin's mother, Abiah Folger, was born into a Puritan family that was among the first Pilgrims to flee to Massachusetts for religious freedom, when King Charles I of England began persecuting Protestants.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

"Adam, if ever there was such a man, was created a Deist; but in the mean time, let every man follow, as he has a right to do, the religion and worship he prefers."
Thomas Paine - Age of Reason


Etc, etc. Point being, most of them did believe in *a* god - just not necessarily the Christian one. Some certainly were Christians, but the biggest players were not, and they were pretty explicit with that part about "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." (the original text as proposed by Madison was 'The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'). The Constitution was not written by Christians for Christians. Most of them were recently British and well aware of the perils of a state religion and sanctioned persecution. It was set up so that you can participate in whatever religion floats your boat without oppression OR preferential treatment, and sadly some people selfishly mistake lack of the latter for the former.

 

[nailz]

It was set up so that you can participate in whatever religion or lack thereof that floats your boat without oppression OR preferential treatment, and sadly some people selfishly mistake lack of the latter for the former.

Fixed that for you.