Mixing session done - band refuses to pay

[tgs]

*adding to info section on site*

PLEASE NOTE: We will only work with bands that have more than 5000 myspace friends, accumulated over a period of no more than two years. Please attach proof of friend count (signed and stamped) with your interest request.

 

[006]

Lol this is too funny

 

[BLOODROOT]

If I wanted to ridicule them, all I have to do is solo some of the vocal parts.

EDIT: Oh sorry, I completely forgot about this of course:
"the track is copyrighted and all rights reserved by us"

hahah yea that too. I highly doubt they could afford to copyright them correctly since they aren't paying you either. They probably think mailing yourself a copy is legit or something rediculous.

I'd copyright their music under your name. Once it goes through, send them a cease and desist letter to stop playing "your" music.

That would be the best revenge ever unless you do the parody website. Or better yet. do both.

 

[TravisW]

Can I put down a deposit of 1100 MySpace friends, and then submit the balance after the mixing is done? I swear, I have a ton of them just sitting in my notification queue.

 

[Jind]

Can I put down a deposit of 1100 MySpace friends, and then submit the balance after the mixing is done? I swear, I have a ton of them just sitting in my notification queue.

Is there someplace to look up the daily conversion rate for Facebook to Myspace friends - I have a ton of Facebook friends I'd like to convert, but I'm affraid I'm going to lose out in the conversion - damn Facebook value keep going down. Maybe I should convert them to Gold for long term security for my golden years? Or perhaps roll them over into my 401K plan - too many options these days, maybe my MySpace Roth IRA.

 

[poidaobi]

aside from the fact of every single speaking point you mentioned in your posts, coming late as you have to this discussion, having already been covered to death in the first several pages of the thread, including the one i'm about to mention... again..... is it so terribly obtuse of Tore to assume that the band, having given their blessing... and files... to move forward with the job , had already spotted his prices on his site, where they are very conspicuously listed under the link "Prices"?

seriously.. this has been tread and re-tread in this thread. please, no more late-hitters that haven't read the entire thread.

i would have done the same, and every working engineer that's commented in this thing has basically taken Tore's side in the matter... sure, he got a bit harsh, and is partly to blame for the problem, by his own admission... but this in no way absolves the band of their obligation to pay for the work they commissioned, or their responsibility to their budget to simply look at "the menu", where it lies, in the open, for all to see.

I knew I would get a reply like this. So please no more people making assumptons. Disagree with tgs not giving an estimate therefore I must be in agreeance with the band? I think the band handled it poorly too. They knew tgs would be dedicating his time to the mixing and I bet their exact train of thought was 'lets hope because he didn't give an original estimate he's nice and cheap'.I've got no idea whether they need to pay I'm not a lawyer (clearly ) but if you guys who have experience in these things say he does then I'll go with you. I was simply saying that he should've given an estimate to the band. Not whether they should pay or not. I can tell you I'd take my business elsewhere if I was ignored and not provided with a quote. But I also wouldn't give the go ahead with being fully informed on all charges.

 

[PhilR]

I'd copyright their music under your name. Once it goes through, send them a cease and desist letter to stop playing "your" music.

I'd suggest you learn what copyright actually means. What you're suggesting is impossible.

 

[BLOODROOT]

I'd suggest you learn what copyright actually means. What you're suggesting is impossible.

Don't be so serious and act like you are the end all of legal information. I was adding some humor to the thread.
I would thing one could get away with it though. Copyright someones elses material. Bands been fighting for years over ownership of songs long after the money is made and have broken up. I think Axel Rose and Slash have been fighting over publishing for 20 years now. I could probably take one your uncopyrighted songs and pay to have it copyrighted and call it mine. I dunno though. Theres a huge lawsuit going on in Canada as we speak over copyrights of material. Perhaps its a different topic though. I wasnt posting to start an argument though. I just wanted to be funny.

 

[lilhermiejobo]

At what point does Intellectual Property come into consideration in regard to copyright laws? Is it simply a monetary thing and whoever can afford to buy ownership claims the right to it?
Surely something as basic as time/datestamps on the original recorded files would have to mean something if it were to go to court (not this particular thread topic, but more generally speaking).

Back, OT... One by one, systematically abduct the members of the band and hold them at an undisclosed location while recording every minute of their capture. After some time passes and they realize the error of their ways, you could edit the hostage footage to one of their songs and release it as a viral video. The attention gained by doing so would catapult both the band and yourself into the limelight and because every ending is a happy one, when you unshackled and released the band members they wouldn't turn you into the police once they realize they're already famous giving everyone well deserved recognition and potential for monetary gain.
And THEN you should use your earnings to buy the copyrights to their songs. Or not, you know. Just saying.

 

[PhilR]

Don't be so serious and act like you are the end all of legal information. I was adding some humor to the thread.
I would thing one could get away with it though. Copyright someones elses material. Bands been fighting for years over ownership of songs long after the money is made and have broken up. I think Axel Rose and Slash have been fighting over publishing for 20 years now. I could probably take one your uncopyrighted songs and pay to have it copyrighted and call it mine. I dunno though. Theres a huge lawsuit going on in Canada as we speak over copyrights of material. Perhaps its a different topic though. I wasnt posting to start an argument though. I just wanted to be funny.

Don't go getting snippy because you get called out on statements of ignorance. You could not "copyright" any of my songs because copyright exists the moment a creative work is set down in fixed form. All i would need is a timestamp from ANY recording that predates your claim. The moment any part of a song I wrote is set down in any fixed form the copyright belongs to me. I don't have to do anything to assert this.

Publishing rights on the other hand are an entirely different matter because these are set as a matter of legal contract. Axel Rose may be fighting over the rights to use his songs because he signed away the publishing rights to such, but nobody can contest his ownership of them. He held copyright to those songs as soon as he wrote them down.

 

[smy1]

Oh man ... not saying that the band has any right to their claims, but after 10 years of being a "pro producer" shit like this still happens to you???

I can't say I have any sympathy or pity for you cause in an industry that consists 95% of cheap-asses and moronic liars - this is what you had coming for you the way you handled the communication. Which leads me to the whole point of my post (because all of the above has been said a few times already):

If you are booked solid for a year in advance and still have trouble paying the rent, you really need to look into your client contact and accounting practices. I do realize that this is very often the hardest part for us "creative types" but it's also extremely important. If your accounting/financial management is as terrible as your email ethic, I really wonder how you made it through the last 10 years.

You seem to have a solid client base due to your technical skills, so maybe it's time to use this incident as motivation to polish up on your communication/accounting skills!?

 

[BLOODROOT]

Don't go getting snippy because you get called out on statements of ignorance. You could not "copyright" any of my songs because copyright exists the moment a creative work is set down in fixed form. All i would need is a timestamp from ANY recording that predates your claim. The moment any part of a song I wrote is set down in any fixed form the copyright belongs to me. I don't have to do anything to assert this.

Publishing rights on the other hand are an entirely different matter because these are set as a matter of legal contract. Axel Rose may be fighting over the rights to use his songs because he signed away the publishing rights to such, but nobody can contest his ownership of them. He held copyright to those songs as soon as he wrote them down.

Nah I can admit I was wrong in regards to the copyright thing, but come on. It was funny.

 

[James Murphy]

Oh man ... not saying that the band has any right to their claims, but after 10 years of being a "pro producer" shit like this still happens to you???

I can't say I have any sympathy or pity for you cause in an industry that consists 95% of cheap-asses and moronic liars - this is what you had coming for you the way you handled the communication. Which leads me to the whole point of my post (because all of the above has been said a few times already):

If you are booked solid for a year in advance and still have trouble paying the rent, you really need to look into your client contact and accounting practices. I do realize that this is very often the hardest part for us "creative types" but it's also extremely important. If your accounting/financial management is as terrible as your email ethic, I really wonder how you made it through the last 10 years.

You seem to have a solid client base due to your technical skills, so maybe it's time to use this incident as motivation to polish up on your communication/accounting skills!?

look, i don't have "pity" for him either.. but i do totally understand his side of things... as has pretty much every other working engineer on here so far that's commented in this thread.. learn something by reading those comments or don't, but you're not going to impose your "sense" of how things should be onto the reality of how things actually are. yes, in a perfect world, he should have been more on top of his correspondence... but he is NOT totally responsible, as his rates are CLEARLY posted under the link "PRICES" on his site. for fuxsake.

point of fact, it's quite possible to be booked for a year in advance and still find yourself having short-term, "in the red" moments, because... and this has been said over and over again in this thread, and totally negates your premise.... because LABELS OFTEN TAKE UP TO 90 DAYS OR MORE BEFORE PAYING OUTSTANDING INVOICES. get it? don't believe me or Tore?.. ask Andy. full stop, end of that line of argument.

 

[PhilR]

LABELS OFTEN TAKE UP TO 90 DAYS OR MORE BEFORE PAYING OUTSTANDING INVOICES.

90 if you're lucky. I used to do web design for a small UK label, it took them nearly a year to pay off one outstanding invoice. And by the time I finally cut any ties they still owed me. Small record labels are more than likely always running either close to or in the red.

 

[paladin shredder]

You website clearly states an approximate price for mixing. Regardless of whether you told them the estimated price in the email, the fact that they won't even pay you the mastering fee amount (which is what they thought you were doing, even though it wasn't) is completely wrong. They should have known what they were getting into by simply checking the website.

 

[smy1]

look, i don't have "pity" for him either.. but i do totally understand his side of things... as has pretty much every other working engineer on here so far that's commented in this thread.. learn something by reading those comments or don't, but you're not going to impose your "sense" of how things should be onto the reality of how things actually are. yes, in a perfect world, he should have been more on top of his correspondence... but he is NOT totally responsible, as his rates are CLEARLY posted under the link "PRICES" on his site. for fuxsake.

point of fact, it's quite possible to be booked for a year in advance and still find yourself having short-term, "in the red" moments, because... and this has been said over and over again in this thread, and totally negates your premise.... because LABELS OFTEN TAKE UP TO 90 DAYS OR MORE BEFORE PAYING OUTSTANDING INVOICES. get it? don't believe me or Tore?.. ask Andy. full stop, end of that line of argument.

James, I am aware of all of this. It makes him look even less professional to conduct himself in this manner DESPITE the fact that he knows all of the circumstances in the industry. Don't get me started on financing/accounting, I've been self-employed for years and don't have financial problems - despite additionally running my own record label (aka "bottomless moneypit").

The world is full of people who don't think or act like you/Tore/I expect them to think or act. Even if you/him/me are right.

Get your business manners right and you will have less idiots like this band to deal with.

And that was my point.

 

[James Murphy]

ah, ok.. gotcha. i don't disagree that he shouldn't really have been so public... and given the fact he seems to have stopped, or slowed down his posts in this one, i'd say that he probably finally gets that point as well. better late than never. i can't agree on the accounting side though, sorry. because in order to do something well, you have good control over it. in this case, the accounting, he probably is good with sending his invoices in proper order... but one has little control over how quickly, or slowly, the invoices are paid.

off topic.. the Faderhead stuff is really well done,

 

[smy1]

i can't agree on the accounting side though, sorry. because in order to do something well, you have good control over it. in this case, the accounting, he probably is good with sending his invoices in proper order... but one has little control over how quickly, or slowly, the invoices are paid.

The way I learned to get through these times is by depositing a certain amount of money into a side-account (not related to insurances or future savings but purely for business purposes) every month. This account is always filled with enough money to pay my all my recurring bills for 3 months. That way I stay in the plus. It's tough to do if you make just enough to live, but it's a good practice to get into once you have some spare cash. It also helps with unexpected emergency payments and investments in equipment etc.

off topic.. the Faderhead stuff is really well done,

Thanks. Just released a new music video today: http://faderhead.com/blog/

 

[Dexter_prog]

I gave the thread a quick read (but I fully read your link), before giving my point of view I have a question: did the band ever mention how much they expected to pay for mixing one song? I need to know this to see if the band wanted to pay like, for example, 400 euro, or if they expected it to be done for 50.
Another question, where your rates at your website by the time the band contacted you?

 

[ahjteam]

I gave the thread a quick read (but I fully read your link), before giving my point of view I have a question: did the band ever mention how much they expected to pay for mixing one song? I need to know this to see if the band wanted to pay like, for example, 400 euro, or if they expected it to be done for 50.

I guess you didn't read the link thoroughly enough because it reads in the conversation (27 dec). 300€