Mixing session done - band refuses to pay

[Mikaël-ange]

Didn't read entire thread but just wish you to get your money soon...
Btw just read your client list and would say this:
Man, you did an awesome job on last Watain record, probably one best BM production with last Marduk release, congrats

 

[Plec]

I agree with Tore and James on the subject and have a full understanding of Tores issues with delayed payments and I have a hard time identifying with the "I've only had delayed payments happen to me three times". Having payments happen ON time is more or less the exception from both big and small labels.

I've never had a signed contract with any label or any artist regarding production costs in 8 years, and that's basically because no one else does it either and it's a hazzle to go through with getting contracts signed when it is such unorthodox on those kinds of budgets and time involved and even if you have a contract with a client it doesn't protect you from good ol' economics. Anything can happen to a label during the time you're working for them which might hinder them from being able to pay your fee, no matter how honest they may be and it doesn't matter how much you yell, the money will not materialize out of thin air.

I have a policy for every job I do and that's 50% up front on the estimate to the client to even get to book the dates for the job and then the other 50% upon delivery. In that way it becomes a whole lot easier since the client must prove that they have the financial capabilites, unless they're actually out to scam you in which case you've only had your ass half raped, and also prove that they trust you. Even if the final payment is delayed (like normal) you're not totally stuck since you already got half. If a client can't meet that criteria it just proves its a very high risk project to get involved with.

I had this happen to me last year with a big label going bankrupt right at the end of production, and even though I lost £5000 I would've lost £10 000 if I hadn't pushed for half up front. If a contract had been made instead it still wouldn't have mattered since the label was so much in debt anyway I still wouldn't have gotten a dime in the end.

 

[tgs]

Btw just read your client list and would say this:
Man, you did an awesome job on last Watain record, probably one best BM production with last Marduk release, congrats

Thanks, that's very cool to hear! Actually we're starting production of their new album on Sunday. I am convinced that it will be a truly amazing album...

 

[Mikaël-ange]

Actually we're starting production of their new album on Sunday. I am convinced that it will be a truly amazing album...

Amazing news

 

[poidaobi]

Hmmm....

So you started mixing and failed to provide a price because you we're busy?

Some of guys just shoot yourselves in the foot. Not something I expect from a professional studio.

Either you are busy and can't do it or you be professional with the client and provide quotes.

I would've taken my money elsewhere.

Sorry to be harsh but I read these type of stories on the forum and just shake my head.

 

[tgs]

Hmmm....

So you started mixing and failed to provide a price because you we're busy?

Some of guys just shoot yourselves in the foot. Not something I expect from a professional studio.

Either you are busy and can't do it or you be professional with the client and provide quotes.

I would've taken my money elsewhere.

Sorry to be harsh but I read these type of stories on the forum and just shake my head.

No that's quite a misunderstanding. Please read properly.

 

[poidaobi]

So you did provide a quote and were not busy with 'real work'. Apologies.

 

[tgs]

Hmmm....

So...Some...guys...just...expect...you...to...be...harsh...but...read...stories...on...the...head.

Sorry, just had to condense what you wrote and take it out of context.

 

[poidaobi]

he initially ask for a price estimate which I unfortunately forget to address(something that in hindsight would have avoided the whole issue)

Yes a price estimate would've helped. So my point was that you didn't provide an estimate. Did you not write these words? Apologies if you didn't I was only referring to the link you posted.

A bit later though, the band gets back to me and asks me if I can still do the mix. No more mention about any estimate.

Did you expect the band to play a guessing game and have them provide the estimate. You're running the business. You set the price. Tell them your fees. Does this not sound ridiculous to anyone else?

trying to relay on that there "is no contract"

I'm not a lawyer but is it actually a contract?

"I'll mix your bands song in exchange for....????".


It looks like this was already done to the death. Sorry all.

 

[tgs]

Yes a price estimate would've helped. So my point was that you didn't provide an estimate. Did you not write these words? Apologies if you didn't I was only referring to the link you posted.

No, I acknowledged that it would have helped, and it would have avoided the situation. I do not however think that it's any reason for them to not pay.

Did you expect the band to play a guessing game and have them provide the estimate. You're running the business. You set the price. Tell them your fees. Does this not sound ridiculous to anyone else?

You seem to imply that I had some sort of nefarious motive. I started working because the band asked me to (in emails and in the letter they wrote). I assumed that they had some idea of what it might cost. Not good to assume things, clearly, but it still doesn't mean you don't have to pay. I will make my opinion VERY clear: they should have asked again about an estimate. They were clearly capable of writing to me again asking if I could still do it, they should ABSOLUTELY have brought up the estimate again. I didn't remember that they asked for an estimate in the first email, and when they tell me to proceed with the mix, I WILL assume that it's not an issue. Is that really that hard to understand?

 

[poidaobi]

You seem to imply that I had some sort of nefarious motive.

No I didn't imply anything other than I found it ridiculous to expect the band to come up with the estimate.That is all. I definitely would have brought it up if I was in the band. But as a business operator I would've thought that you'd have raised these issues up so all parties were clear. Relying on the bands...hmmm. I understand what you did very clearly. Just because I disagree with the way you handle things does not mean I don't understand it.

Good Luck.

 

[Jind]

I am bitching that me equating a bands lack of popularity, is usually linked to how much they can spend in the studio being THE STUPIDEST ASSUMPTION EVER MADE that someone has EVER READ. I said it is a flag is all.

It is stupid - I'm not the most popular guy in the world, but my day-time job affords me the opportunity to drop much more than $1000.00 if I wanted something bad enough. Could it be a flag, I guess if I was shallow and determined to be hip, but if I judged the business relationships I'm in based upon their myspace friends, shit, I'd be fucked.

Hell, I don't have any myspace friends, damn, I can't afford anything.

You need to give up on this line of reasoning and stick to the one in which they are simple deadbeats that can't pay what they should have researched prior to getting an arrangement over. It's simple "rules of life" type shit that I hope each and everyone of you learn - you research things before you dive in. If you dive before looking then accept the fact that it's gonna hurt when you hit the bottom of an empty pool.

 

[dontletmedrown]

Take it for what it is, you both acted like unprofessional cunts and you got burned.

They should have paid you period and are total cunts for not doing so, but you should have made sure it wasn't gonna be such a sticker shock at the end. I would never do a project without the band at least having a clue about the damages in the end. You should have updated them on price once you got the rough mix done and let them know how much time it was taking.

To put it in perspective, if I hired someone at $60 an hour and he said "ok" and I didn't hear from him in a week and he billed me for a week of work I would be pissed because I had no idea he was gonna need all week to get it done. Everyone has a pretty decent idea of how long things are gonna take within an hour of digging into something. I would have let them know after that hour was up to avoid headache all around.

Honestly I thought your communication was shit as well, if I don't hear from someone in 5-6 days that I am paying I get irritated. Don't take on the work if your not really going to take on the work.

If you couldn't give the project what it deserved then you should have sent them on their way.

Also: I don't know if your short tempered or what, but I would have personally needed at least one more back and forth before losing my cool in communication. Bands are always going to be unprofessional tools, don't stoop to that level until you really need to .

I seem to agree with Loren a lot lately. Yes, both parties were at fault. It's low of them to not pay, and it's low of you to post the entire ordeal on the net.

What some people seem to forget is that this is a SERVICE INDUSTRY. Of course, if you don't need the business, more power to you. Oh, that's right- you can't pay your rent... That's the kinda stuff you want to think about before you flip a client the bird.

Anyways, best of luck.:Smokin:

 

[James Murphy]

No I didn't imply anything other than I found it ridiculous to expect the band to come up with the estimate.That is all. I definitely would have brought it up if I was in the band. But as a business operator I would've thought that you'd have raised these issues up so all parties were clear. Relying on the bands...hmmm. I understand what you did very clearly. Just because I disagree with the way you handle things does not mean I don't understand it.

Good Luck.

aside from the fact of every single speaking point you mentioned in your posts, coming late as you have to this discussion, having already been covered to death in the first several pages of the thread, including the one i'm about to mention... again..... is it so terribly obtuse of Tore to assume that the band, having given their blessing... and files... to move forward with the job , had already spotted his prices on his site, where they are very conspicuously listed under the link "Prices"?

seriously.. this has been tread and re-tread in this thread. please, no more late-hitters that haven't read the entire thread.

i would have done the same, and every working engineer that's commented in this thing has basically taken Tore's side in the matter... sure, he got a bit harsh, and is partly to blame for the problem, by his own admission... but this in no way absolves the band of their obligation to pay for the work they commissioned, or their responsibility to their budget to simply look at "the menu", where it lies, in the open, for all to see.

 

[dontletmedrown]

...every working engineer that's commented in this thing has basically taken Tore's side in the matter...

Incorrect assumption. Loren and me make 2.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Incorrect assumption. Loren and me make 2.

Eh, but I am definitely more on Tore's side than the band.

 

[dontletmedrown]

Gotcha.

 

[tgs]

Oh, that's right- you can't pay your rent... That's the kinda stuff you want to think about before you flip a client the bird.

I posted it after the band made it perfectly clear that they weren't going to pay, and this after being quiet for 10 days while I was waiting for the payment. I can do without their business, yes. I didn't expect 3 other payments to be heavily delayed at the same time though.

 

[tgs]

Just to sum it up a bit:

* Band asks for an estimate but don't get any reply

* Band gives the green light, without having an estimate, and never brings it up again

* Work is done and approved

* Band gets bill (with a 43% discount, mind you) but refuses to pay

* Producer isn't happy with action taken by band

End of story

 

[thefyn]

It may be a blessing, I'm thinking some dudes on here may not have heard of you. I am impressed by your production and I am sure others will be to. So while you made a small mistake, I can't deny that I would use you in a heart beat.

If I had more Myspace friends.