MMA

[Vossyrus]

Lesnar clearly has not been the same fighter since he was sick. I don't know if it's an actual physical deficiency, or whether do to having a near death experience he lacks the "killer instinct" or whatever.

I've heard a lot of people say this or things like this because he hasn't fared too well in his last couple of fights. Do you honestly believe he was a better fighter when he was sick? He has improved his game considerably from where he was earlier and is a better fighter now than he has been at any point previously.

I think the answer lies in the fact that Lesnar is now facing stronger, more threatening competition. Even though he has improved a lot, he still hasn't fixed many of the holes that plague his game. Of course when this is obvious, the greater, smarter competition he faces will exploit these weaknesses.

With Cain Velasquez, myself and many diehard MMA fans predicted he would destroy Lesnar ever since this match was announced. Cain is just a way better mixed martial artist. Brock actually came out pretty aggressively, but it's pretty hard to have that killer instinct when you're getting your ass kicked by a much better fighter. Shane Carwin is a relatively similar fighter to Lesnar but with much better stand-up skills so it's no surprise that he had success against him. Lesnar survived because Carwin got excited and exhausted himself trying to finish the fight, then the round ended and Brock recovered.

Now looking at Lesnar's notable wins. He defeated Frank Mir, a guy who wilts when he gets punched in the face or pressured and whose only real threat to Lesnar at the time was submissions. Mir has improved a lot since then but I still think he's overrated.

He beat an aging and completely undersized Randy Couture.

And Heath Herring? He is and always was a mediocre heavyweight, even in his Pride days. I was surprised UFC even picked this guy up.

Not to downplay what Lesnar has done but why can't people accept that he just isn't a great mixed martial artist, and likely will never be one. That being said Lesnar is talented and uses his strengths well, and I believe he can still beat the majority of UFC's heavyweight division.

 

[Karmablade]

WHAT ABOUT CAINS OPPONENTS? do you want me to bring up how good they were? stop your LAME excuses, brock will smash cain in the rematch

 

[Dak]

I think people are saying that because he hasn't even showed one bit of dominance since coming back. He was able to weather the storm from Carwin due to Carwin's failing, and obviously Cain didn't have the same problem.

I can't believe that Mir is so below Cain and Carwin in talent and skill that it's merely the difference in opponents that is leading to the drasticly different fights.

 

[Enemy242]

has MMA been dropping in popularity? I feel like I used to see a lot more ads and douchebags obsessed and talking about the fights and how they'd do this or that (yeah ok sure) but recently it's been pretty quiet and I haven't heard much about it or seen anything. It's kinda nice because all of hype annoyed me, the only person I would watch a fight of was GSP because his drive and motivation was amazing and he just straight up kicked ass; I teach a muay thai class and we spar every week (I haven't the past 2 though because of trying to emphasize the students and work after, I really fucking miss it) so I have some experience fighting and he's so good I can't even imagine how much he must've trained to get to that level and revolved his life around fighting.

 

[Vossyrus]

WHAT ABOUT CAINS OPPONENTS? do you want me to bring up how good they were? stop your LAME excuses, brock will smash cain in the rematch

My point is that, many of you Lesnar-fanatics believed he was some incredible, unstoppable force. When all you have to do is take a dose of reality and then you'll know why he got dominated in his last fight, and nearly lost the previous one. Looking at him as mixed martial artist and considering what he has done thus far, what would give people the impression that he's invincible? He isn't a well-rounded fighter by any means, his strengths are matched by glaring weaknesses that he still hasn't fixed. This is obviously a problem when you fight stronger opposition and have not made the necessary adjustments to your game to move forward, fighting at that level.

So, if Cain doesn't fix his awful defense he's going to absorb a lot of punishment against Junior Dos Santos. But I think Cain still has a lot of potential, where as I don't think Brock does.

 

[Vossyrus]

I think people are saying that because he hasn't even showed one bit of dominance since coming back. He was able to weather the storm from Carwin due to Carwin's failing, and obviously Cain didn't have the same problem.

I can't believe that Mir is so below Cain and Carwin in talent and skill that it's merely the difference in opponents that is leading to the drasticly different fights.

Prior to coming back, Lesnar said he was fighting at about 60% or so, the illness was really affecting him. Explain to me, now that he's healthy, why isn't he able to duplicate his earlier success?

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

My point is that, many of you Lesnar-fanatics believed he was some incredible, unstoppable force. When all you have to do is take a dose of reality and then you'll know why he got dominated in his last fight, and nearly lost the previous one. Looking at him as mixed martial artist and considering what he has done thus far, what would give people the impression that he's invincible? He isn't a well-rounded fighter by any means, his strengths are matched by glaring weaknesses that he still hasn't fixed. This is obviously a problem when you fight stronger opposition and have not made the necessary adjustments to your game to move forward, fighting at that level.

QFT!

anyone going to watch Hector Lombard fight today on FSN? the guy has a legit opponent in front of him in Shlemenko this time.... should be interesting.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Frank Mir = heavyweight punching bag

ever single one of his losses were by brutal molestation.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

whoa, big UFC news
UFC and WEC have merged. Two new weight classes.

 

[Vossyrus]

^I'm not sure what to think about that. I guess it was inevitable, especially when they did that one WEC event, "Zuffa presents...", where they basically acted as if it was just another UFC event, and as if WEC didn't even exist.

 

[Dak]

Prior to coming back, Lesnar said he was fighting at about 60% or so, the illness was really affecting him. Explain to me, now that he's healthy, why isn't he able to duplicate his earlier success?

Two things: The after effects of the toll of your body fighting to stay alive + having to regain all the weight he lost and recondition his body to carrying the weight/fighting is not something that can necessarily happen in six-nine months. He may not be sick now but he is obviously not 100%. If he was, he should have been able to use his 30+lb advantage to overcome any potential technique advantage Cain had when he intially rushed him, like he did with previous fighters he grappled with.

Cain made him look weak, which even Carwin didn't do once Lesnar had him wrapped up.

Secondly: Lesnar obviously lost a lot of belligerency after nearly dying, and fighting is just as much about attitude as it is about skill. If Lesnar was fueling his fighting with a belligerent/fuck everyone attitude (as opposed to how GSP seems to carry himself), then without it he lacks the "inner fire" needed to overcome a difficult opponent. He needs to find a new "center" and motivation.

 

[Vossyrus]

Two things: The after effects of the toll of your body fighting to stay alive + having to regain all the weight he lost and recondition his body to carrying the weight/fighting is not something that can necessarily happen in six-nine months. He may not be sick now but he is obviously not 100%. If he was, he should have been able to use his 30+lb advantage to overcome any potential technique advantage Cain had when he intially rushed him, like he did with previous fighters he grappled with.

Cain made him look weak, which even Carwin didn't do once Lesnar had him wrapped up.

Secondly: Lesnar obviously lost a lot of belligerency after nearly dying, and fighting is just as much about attitude as it is about skill. If Lesnar was fueling his fighting with a belligerent/fuck everyone attitude (as opposed to how GSP seems to carry himself), then without it he lacks the "inner fire" needed to overcome a difficult opponent. He needs to find a new "center" and motivation.

Whether he is 100% or not, the point is that he is clearly a lot healthier now. He was able to overwhelm opponents while fighting at 60%, but he's not able to do so now. I think this speaks more about the level of competition that he's fighting. A size/strength advantage will only get you so far in MMA, and you cannot simply rely on this when you are fighting guys who have more skill and technique such as Cain. You don't see any fighters at the top who are one-dimensional or significantly flawed anymore for a good reason.

Not to mention it seemed like a lot of people forgot Cain was a quality wrestler too, Lesnar's usual advantage in that department was basically nullified in this fight.

I think a motivated Brock fighting at 100% would have still gotten his ass kicked pretty badly by Cain. I believe as I always have that this ultimately, is just a horrible style match-up for Lesnar.

 

[-CC-]

I agree completely with Vossyrus on this.

Also, I can't see how people who have watched MMA for years can regard themselves as Brock fan-boys, I simply do not believe they exist (except maybe for Dakryn?). If you have watched MMA for years you must know that size isn't the determining factor against top competetion and a record of 5-2 simply does not make one the #1 Heavy-weight in the world.

 

[Dak]

Who is your entire statement aimed at? No one made any of the above points you are addressing.

 

[-CC-]

Karmablade has, and it was aimed at Brock fan-boys (note: not fans, but fan-boys, big difference) in general. When I went to see UFC 121 the bar was full of Brock fan-boys that were talking about how he is the greatest fighter in UFC history etc etc and it really struck me how little they know about mixed martial arts.

Of course I'm generalizing an entire crowd but I've yet to meet a Brock fan-boy that actually knows anything about mixed martial arts

 

[Vossyrus]

I think the majority of MMA fans these days are people who have only become a fan within the last few years, sometime during or after The Ultimate Fighter debut. Though of course with Brock Lesnar taking up fighting, MMA was introduced to countless numbers of prowrestling fans not already familiar with it.

In truth the only people I cannot stand are wannabe tough guys. They're an embarrassment to the sport. They seem to be everywhere these days, the ones who walk down the street with their chests pumped out wearing their ugly Affliction t-shirts and such. They can go fuck themselves!

 

[Caecius]

I guess I can go fuck myself. I don't pretend to be a tough guy, but I support the fighters I like.

 

[Vossyrus]

Nah, if you don't pretend to be tough guy you're likely not part of the stereotype. They're the ones who act tough and talk tough to uphold their ego. During fights they'll yell idiotic things like "fuck him up!" and other obnoxious things.

I don't honestly have anything against the clothing of Affliction or Tap Out or whatever, it's just that the wannabe tough guys seem to often wear these shirts. Some of the shirt designs I've seen are rather ugly though.

 

[-CC-]

Oh I totally yell shit like "fuck him up" during fights

The one thing that annoys me is when people yell stuff like "PUT HIM IN ARMBAR" when he clearly can't do so. Backseat coaching is part of every sport on TV I suppose.

 

[Vossyrus]

Oh I totally yell shit like "fuck him up" during fights

The one thing that annoys me is when people yell stuff like "PUT HIM IN ARMBAR" when he clearly can't do so. Backseat coaching is part of every sport on TV I suppose.

You barbarian! Do you yell it in a deep macho voice?

And speaking of coaching, I remember a while back I tuned into an episode of The Ultimate Fighter from the previous season. I'm positive it was Chuck Liddell that was coaching a match, and his fighter was on his back taking a beating. His advice was something like "Alright, let's move. You're gonna have to get up, you're gonna have to get up from that. You can't just stay there, you're gonna have to get up." :zombie:

I tried to find some tough guy stuff but the best I could find was a video of some guy mocking it.