Money

[hyena]

Since everyone is crying out for new threads (well, everyone... some of you, ok?), here's few choice questions:

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?

Is this particular problem very important to you?

Is making a lot of money a goal in your life or you don't really care?

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?

Discuss.

 

[Malaclypse]

i hate to have to deal with money issues, i just care so much to have around enough not to have to think about it constantly, but i don't really want to plan my life 50 years in adavance for my bloody pension or some such.
living in gemany where welfare has some tradition, i don't want a state where i will be left on the street when i'm in bad luck with my job. it can happen to anyone, and i'm glad that germany's system catches some people on their way down. on the other hand, it is more likely to be abused, of course. and probably quite a few people do so.

making money is not really a goal, though i had no problems with having more... but i won't consume my private life over filling my bank account, there are things which matter more. as i said, mainly i just want to think as little as possible about it.

about the first question, wealth is random and depends on very many factors (country, birth house, education, luck...), and therefore there can't be any objective fairness in wealth distribution. if it were totally random, maybe. but even then people would complain, so i don't really know. some people won't make it even though they want to try as hard as they can, and others... well, the devil shits on the biggest pile, as we say here. is it unfair? maybe. maybe not.

 

[Misanthrope]

Since everyone is crying out for new threads (well, everyone... some of you, ok?), here's few choice questions:

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?

Is this particular problem very important to you?

Is making a lot of money a goal in your life or you don't really care?

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?

Discuss.

The problem is not Rich people, the problem is people who are assholes. Being rich is not inherently wrong, but it brings out the worst in people and the means to achieve it oppressing others.

Mankind is just not ready for varying degree's of wealth or power because of their selish nature.

Of course is pointless to argue because you will never get rid of degree's of wealth, because as selfish persons we will always support system like capitalism more, and even if some people dont support it they can usually be sold into the fantasy that they might get to be rich one day. Add ignorance to the mix and you kill rebelion, at least until the rich get out of hand and the poor cant be fooled anymore.

 

[Taliesin]

That's quite an interesting subject.. based on "All men are equal", you could presume they should be equal in property as well. Basically, I think that those who work more should get more, or those who study very hard to get into certain positions as well.. along with those carrying more responsibility. So yea, I think it's morally wrong to be rich beyond a certain point... which doesnt prevent me to selfishly wish I was that rich

I constantly have money issues.. I dont know why, no matter what I do, I just never have enough money.
So yea, making money is one of my main goals in life. I cant change most of the rest, happiness or luck or whatever, so Id rather be well off and unhappy than poor and unhappy

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?

There will always certainly be, to put it in opposites, people who do not put any work into their education or their job, so trying to completely make the gap between the rich and poor disappear seems absurd to me. It would certainly make the ones doing all the work bitter and any community trying to do this would just not work. Maybe.

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?

I wonder if the term is correct, because I'm not all that educated in economic vocabulary, but progressive taxing should be enforced everywhere. For example, a person who makes more than 50 000 euros a year can damn well live just fine even if he/she has to pay more taxes than the average poor person. Then that "extra" tax money can be further used for social services. Of course the problem is that people, rich or poor, are greedy bastards.
Anyway, if that sort of a system was used, the poor might try to abuse the system as well. In Finland an unemployed person could get 80% of his salary for a limited period after becoming unemployed and after that period continue to get a steady unemployment benefit. Maybe Average Jussi would find that he could live a little less than middle class life without working at all and be more or less content with that...and that wouldn't work. So now people have to actively look for a job if they want to get the unemployment benefit. That sort of things should be enforced as well.

As for the next two questions, I don't really care about all that much at the moment. Making money isn't exactly at the bottom of the important things list, because I would in fact like to have some money to spend now, but if making money was a goal in my life I would've had numerous jobs by now. I don't really care, but it seems I'll have to work if I want to have a flow of cash my way.

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?

I get inner conflicts. (Should I impulsively give money to musicians on the street? Bums?)
I haven't so far had to deal with thinking in bigger numbers when it comes to that. Anyway, I don't think anyone gives money to others for the sake of doing it.

 

[Human Desert]

I think it's extremely wrong that some people are rich assholes who live in a dreamworld, while on the other side of the world people are dying of hunger. That kind of stuff makes me furious, and it frustrates me that i can't do anything about it.

 

[King Chaos]

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?
People dont get what they deserve, and some rich people dont deserve it yadyaydayadayada. but ultimately people who are rich from hard work and comittment deserve what they've got, and should do whatever the fuck they want with the money they earn. Homeless poorpers who spent all their money on drug fixes should not be sharing the money by any means.

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?
It shouldn't happen. People withpout skills are probably like that from fault of there own. They should of course be given cheap oppotunites to get skills, but all the poor people I know spent their doll money on alcohol anyway. It's not like Oliver or anything in the real world. Poor people are usually in their financial possition due to their own idiocy.

Is this particular problem very important to you?
I'm poor by my own choosing, but I can live. What would money bring me anyway? More material posessions? I feel empathy for people dying of starvation and stuff like that, and if there was a way to change it, then good, but that is by no fault of rich people.

Is making a lot of money a goal in your life or you don't really care?
I don't give a fuck.

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?
I do it all the time, because being kind feels good to me. My principals are not set in stone, and I dont care if my views and my actions contradict each other.

I think it's extremely wrong that some people are rich assholes who live in a dreamworld, while on the other side of the world people are dying of hunger. That kind of stuff makes me furious, and it frustrates me that i can't do anything about it.

wtf are you talking about? You can do something about it. Beat up rich people for being successful . Do you actually know any rich people living in a dream world? Every entrepeneur I've ever read about makes monthly charity donations of a size bigger than I'll probably ever make in a year. They are also intelligent people. You think people get money and become happy as a result? They don't. Having money is equal to having extreme responsibility, and because of views like yours it seems they can't live in contempt with their own success no matter what they do.

If you want to be furious, hold a grudge with the past, not with the present, as it's events of the past which have put third world countries in their place.

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

I feel empathy for people dying of starvation and stuff like that, and if there was a way to change it, then good, but that is by no fault of rich people.

I would say that it's just generally the fault of the powers that be, that is, all the people in first world countries. Still, the rich have the most power, there's no denying that. So I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that starvation and poverty in the third world aren't the fault of the rich. At the very least it's their fault as much as the poor person's.

@Idari: You watch Viva La Bam, so why don't you just shut the fuck up about the wrongness of rich assholes in their dreamworlds. Seems to me like you get comfort from watching a rich asshole's dreamworld.

 

[rahvin]

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?

well, neither exactly. i don't find the fact that a difference between rich and poor people exists an object of moral investigation. it's a situation that has its advantages for society, if it's not taken to the extreme. it clearly leaves many people unsatisfied, as pretty much everything else in life does, but i wouldn't know whether to call this deserved or undeserved. for human standards and purposes, the paradigm of what individuals deserve is usually set after a comparative evaluation, so i would say that it depends. as for ethics on a higher plane, i'm not partial to any specific doctrine.

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?

no standard rule. according to circumstance. so far it seems almost all human communities agree that letting anyone die in the middle of a city street is frowned upon, and i concur that money should be taken away from those who earn some in order to stop various calamities, some of which might involve other individuals dying in the city streets. beyond that level, i suppose it's fair that individual efforts be encouraged by a moderate redistribution based on merit.

Is this particular problem very important to you?

no. or not yet.

Is making a lot of money a goal in your life or you don't really care?

i'm only interested in making enough money to indulge on my hobbies as much as i do now. they're not very expensive hobbies, so i suppose i'm pretty much set with an average amount of money.

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?

at times it makes me feel better, but only if i know the recipient (friend/family). random charity doesn't do anything for me, so i don't do it.

 

[Hitori]

Do you think that it is morally wrong that some people should be rich and some other poor? Or do you think that people basically get what they deserve?

I don't know whether it is morally wrong or right- but i DO know that people don't necessarily get what they deserve. In my experience in european countries, many (not everyone of course) people tended to think that mexicans were poor because we are all lazy. That is not the case. There simply aren't the same opportunities over here- the same level of education, to start with. You don't get paid by the government if you make it to university (like in Finland) and unemployment money is a joke. So no, people don't always get what they deserve, you can't simplify that way and say rich people are hard working and ambitious and poor people conformists or lazy or stupid. I know many people who work their assess off trying to raise their families, with several jobs, or they try and try to make more money and start a business or whatever, and it not always works. If you start off with lots of money that makes things easier.

To which extent do you believe that the state should step in and give money to people with lower education, skills and wages, taking it from those who earn more?

I think up to a certain point taxes should be higher if you have a higher income, and I think some luxurious items should have higher taxes (yatches or wine, and cigarrettes and alcohol instead of medicines, for example), but (and this answers the other question as well) it's not very important for me because my country won't really do that in the near future, as the poverty situation here is extreme.

Is making a lot of money a goal in your life or you don't really care?

I'm about to graduate from literature, so no, I don't expect to become rich, and it is not my priority either. I'm not economically ambitious, I just want to make enough to have a relatively comfortable life and travel every now and then. In my partner, I'm looking for someone who prefers working on something they enjoy and makes them happy rather than someone who makes a lot of money. Of course, someone could make a lot of money while working at something that makes them happy, but at least 80% of the males I meet here say things like, "ahh, I always wish I could have studied X".

How do you feel about giving money to others for the sake of doing it?

I don't. Not in this country, where you see children begging for money in the streets and you know their parents are hiding somewhere and will take all the $ from them and spend it in shit. If I gave money to every person I saw in the street, by the time I got from point A to point B, I'd have nothing in my pockets. Of course, since I'm currently unemployed, my pockets are empty already, so

 

[Hitori]

Do you actually know any rich people living in a dream world? Every entrepeneur I've ever read about makes monthly charity donations of a size bigger than I'll probably ever make in a year. They are also intelligent people. You think people get money and become happy as a result?

I disagree with you. You seem to equate rich people= intelligent entrepeneur a la Bill Gates. What about the Paris Hiltons of the world, spending literally billions in sweaters for her Chihuahua dog? What about that other rapper with diamond tennis shoes? The list goes on. Sure, rich people do make big charity donations, but what percentage of what they make goes to that? Not a whole lot, I assure you.

As for how happy they are, well, happiness is a whole different matter, I don't think anyone in this forum would say money buys happiness. As for

and because of views like yours it seems they can't live in contempt with their own success no matter what they do.

I reaaaaaaaaaaaally doubt the Britney Spears or drug lords or other exploiters of the world feel upset over whether Humandesert thinks they deserve their money (not success, don't substitute the words) or not.

 

[marduk1507]

Well, as some said before, the division has nothing to do with morality. On the other hand, theres much the rich countries could do to change it a bit, but they do little. EU destroys huge heaps of food that cant be sold at its markets only to keep the prices and pays the farmers their compensation (especially in France, but also in other countries) and thats morally wrong, I guess.

Imo state should not intervene in these matters at all. State is the worst manager ever. I think the power of the state should be decentralised, divided into the hands of smaller, regional authorities. These, with the help of those "enlightened" rich entrepreneurs should do their best to support whatever needs to be supported, because they know best. I think this is what needs to be rediscovered (at least in post-communist countries like mine) - the regional, local responsibility, or modus vivendi, or whatever.

Making money is not my goal, I just want to have enough to lead a decent life. Money is important, but I spend it easily, cause thats what its for. On the other hand, when theres a good reason, I can save some.

I have mixed feelings when seeing someone who begs for money. I was once in a situation when I needed money and I was helped. So, I just let my radar decide - sometimes I give sometimes I dont.

 

[King Chaos]

What about the Paris Hiltons of the world, spending literally billions in sweaters for her Chihuahua dog? What about that other rapper with diamond tennis shoes? The list goes on. Sure, rich people do make big charity donations, but what percentage of what they make goes to that? Not a whole lot, I assure you.

If you were a billionaire what would your money be spent on? Don't just say "Poor people" for the sake of looking like some kind of saint. When you have that much money, you spend it on the best shit you can get and you spend in excess and you have the absolute right to do so. It's your money. which brings me on to...

You're point about percentages is fucking ridiculous. Every penny counts apparently. I'm fairly certain most rich bastards offer a higher percentage of their salary than I do anyway. 1% of 1000000 is 10,000. So it's a low percentage? Go chew a razor blade if you think the number of the percentage makes any difference. How much do they have to give before you consider them human? 25%? 50%? 75.8%?

about your point of me thinking human desert's views affect rich people. It's not just Human Desert that thinks like that. Alot of people pidgeon hole the rich as selfsish, and that's wrong.

 

[Hitori]

@King Chaos

no, I would not give all my money to poor people if I was a billionaire. I already said that I don't even give money to poor people when I see them on the street. I wouldn’t buy my dogs sweaters that cost more than my entire wardrobe at the moment, though.

Your reply to Humandesert gave me the impression that you think billionaires are some sort of saintly, hard working geniuses. But for every billionaire who made his money in a "good" way, there are many who didn't- inherited the money, sell drugs, black market, super stars, etc.

You're point about percentages is fucking ridiculous. Every penny counts apparently. I'm fairly certain most rich bastards offer a higher percentage of their salary than I do anyway. 1% of 1000000 is 10,000. So it's a low percentage? Go chew a razor blade if you think the number of the percentage makes any difference.

geez I see the misanthrope habit of gratuitous aggression and calling other people’s opinions ridiculous is catching on
can't anything be discussed in a calm manner in this forum?

IN MY OPINION, if I have 20 dollars and give 1 dollar to charity, I’m just as nice as a person that has 200 dollars and gives 10, or one who has 20,000 and gives 200. Not that “nice” matters, of course, but thinking rich people are wonderful just because they give a lot of money doesn’t say much. To me at least, and you’re entitled to think differently, percentage is what matters when giving money. At least it seems that way when I used to go to church and saw a very poor woman giving all her salary and a rich person giving just a 20.

How much do they have to give before you consider them human?

don’t get overexcited. I have a couple of very very rich friends. I don’t have anything against rich people, or poor people.

It's not just Human Desert that thinks like that. Alot of people pidgeon hole the rich as selfsish, and that's wrong.

And a lot of white people pideon hole Mexicans as lazy, and a lot of people pidgeon hole metalheads as satanic, and a lot of people pidgeon hole, period. So? In your original post you are talking like rich people have to live with the contempt of the world, as if they are some sort of victims, as if Humandesert has to apologize to them.

just take it easy dude

 

[Thanatos]

People withpout skills are probably like that from fault of there own. They should of course be given cheap oppotunites to get skills, but all the poor people I know spent their doll money on alcohol anyway. It's not like Oliver or anything in the real world. Poor people are usually in their financial possition due to their own idiocy.

That may be true in a first world country, in developing countries where most of the world population is located, many people are born in extreme poverty and are condemned to die the same way because they don't have almost any chances to improve whatsoever, I know it may be difficult to believe, but I see it almost on a daily basis, and Mexico is not even in the same level as some african countries.

I don't think either rich or poor people should be labeled, not all millionaires are pricks or robber, and not all poor people are lazy or stupid, or whatever.

 

[Taliesin]

It shouldn't happen. People withpout skills are probably like that from fault of there own. They should of course be given cheap oppotunites to get skills, but all the poor people I know spent their doll money on alcohol anyway. It's not like Oliver or anything in the real world. Poor people are usually in their financial possition due to their own idiocy.

I think it's not so much their own idiocy as their parent's idiocy. In my opinion the social environment and the support you get from your parents is a very important factor in how your life turns out. Even if it's not the direct support, it may just be the image they project. My guess is that a lot of the people you're refering to arent failures in the first, but already the second generation or more.

The question concerning rich people wasnt just "What should they do with their money" but it also implied "What did they do to deserve it in the first place" and I doubt anyone deserves to own 5000 times as much money as I do, no matter how they earned it, no one works THAT hard, or carries THAT much responsibility

 

[King Chaos]

geez I see the misanthrope habit of gratuitous aggression and calling other people’s opinions ridiculous is catching on
can't anything be discussed in a calm manner in this forum?

I think having a bit of spunk in your argument makes it better. More fueled. If I hadn't told you to chew razor blades you'd probably have not given me such a lengthy reply, to which I am grateful. It turns out I misunderstood your percentage point anyway. and I pretty much agree, you can only care as much as your worth, but to a dying infant if you said would you rather have 5% of a famous footballer income or 5% of a little old ladies, depending on the infants mental capabilities, I'm sure they'd benefit from taking the footballers. 'Cos charity should be a selfless thing, and thinking about it from that way, should really show contributions in the glory of their amount, not what you can afford.

And a lot of white people pideon hole Mexicans as lazy, and a lot of people pidgeon hole metalheads as satanic, and a lot of people pidgeon hole, period. So? In your original post you are talking like rich people have to live with the contempt of the world, as if they are some sort of victims, as if Humandesert has to apologize to them.

Well then I have a problem with people who pidgeon hole. And in this instance especially.

I don't think either rich or poor people should be labeled, not all millionaires are pricks or robber, and not all poor people are lazy or stupid, or whatever.

Exactly, and that's why I get annoyed at generalisations, that with money you instantly become a target for envy and hate, and accused of being selfish.

I think it's not so much their own idiocy as their parent's idiocy.

I'd agree. However, people born into poverty are not condemned to follow in the footsteps of their ancestors. Unless you want to talk about genetics, and the fact that they are no doubt going to be typical of their parents. Still, everyone has the option to use their initiative, despite heritage. Some people will fail however, like kids in Africa who have to eat their dead family member's diseased corpses to stay alive. Survival takes initiative for them, getting out of their rut of poverty is an impossibility, I accept.

The question concerning rich people wasnt just "What should they do with their money" but it also implied "What did they do to deserve it in the first place" and I doubt anyone deserves to own 5000 times as much money as I do, no matter how they earned it, no one works THAT hard, or carries THAT much responsibility

Well lets start a 'Karma is bullshit' thread then. What do people do to deserve cancer? It happens to the best of us and worst. Some things in life are unfair and all we can really do is accept that. However, if a rich person has loads of money coming in, and that isn't affecting anyone else economically, I couldn't care how much more than me they make.

However. There is apparently a certain figure you can reach where you can afford just about anything (within consumer reason), and on that figure will be able to afford to live and embrace treats excessively for the rest of your life, even without more flowing in. It was an americna dollar figure, and it wasn't as high as one might expect. Once you achieve this figure, I think it's fair that you give the rest of your earnings away, as they won't be needed (unless you plan on giving stuff away in inheritance, then you should double your "happy figure" and trust fung it to your heir). But still, it's up to them as its their money.

 

[Taliesin]

Well lets start a 'Karma is bullshit' thread then. What do people do to deserve cancer? It happens to the best of us and worst. Some things in life are unfair and all we can really do is accept that

I dont wanna sound treehuggerish, but technically, there are things we can do. Im sure modern capitalism isnt what the people had in mind when they invented currency a few thousand years ago, so why just accept it? I dont have the ultimate alternative to suggest, but I think it's stupid to assume we cant and wont ever change this system

 

[TheFourthHorseman]

However, if a rich person has loads of money coming in, and that isn't affecting anyone else economically

Please provide an example.

 

[Hitori]

If I hadn't told you to chew razor blades you'd probably have not given me such a lengthy reply, to which I am grateful.

you're wrong but now you will never know, will you. but i'm grateful you still justify your rudeness

'Cos charity should be a selfless thing,

but in my opinion, it is not. people give money to feel less guilty for how little they can do, or to boost their egos and feel like good, caring, giving people.

it's a complex thing, and where you come from completely changes the way you look at this. in hamburg i met this guy my age, he used to be a carpinter and then one day decided he wanted to live in the streets. so, would you give this poor person some of your money, knowing he is healthy, has a skill, etc, but chooses not to work? "poverty" has a very different meaning if you're coming from a rich european country or a third world one.

take mexico, where there are thousands of homeless persons in the street, not by choice. and yet giving the little girl who begs for money outside my car in a stoplight is pointless, because in 90% of the cases she will take it home for her dad to drink it. i've seen many kids beggging in the streets while their moms hide behind the shadows and take it all. i've seen many women who use children as accessories to get more money, once we kept seeing one man who carried around his "sick" child and begged for $ for medicines, when in truth the kid was perfectly fine. did you know that in mexico, begging will in many cases give more money than the minimum wage? so how many people that CAN work do you think take advantage of that? how to distinguish between who really needs and deserves it and who doesn't? is it our business to make the distinction?

I know I don't have the answers.