they like that chord progression, 0, 8, 5, 7, it's in the 3 songs i've heard from them.
awesome mix, ermz!
thanks,
awesome mix, ermz!
thanks,
My largest sounding mix - Metalcore etc.
- Thread starter Ermz
- Start date
Sickan
¯\(°_o)/¯
Cheers!
It's funny, Greg, if you were to reverse that statement 180 degrees, that's exactly how I feel about it.
It's funny, Greg, if you were to reverse that statement 180 degrees, that's exactly how I feel about it.
hey buddy, you asked for a quick "what you guizee like better",
here is my impression :
first : both serve the songs! so both are great on their own!
in detail :
drones - better separation - "louder" vocals - guitars are less muddy -> my favorite >> its just more in you face sounding.
Peace - muddier (esp. in the mids, guitars fight a little little with vox) // vocals get a little lost (really only a little, but thats the only thing the standard listener will ever critizise about that mix)
seems like guitars are louder in the lower mids here
so my vote goes for drones. hope that helps. again im also on opals so i think were hearing basically the same things ;-)
here is my impression :
first : both serve the songs! so both are great on their own!
in detail :
drones - better separation - "louder" vocals - guitars are less muddy -> my favorite >> its just more in you face sounding.
Peace - muddier (esp. in the mids, guitars fight a little little with vox) // vocals get a little lost (really only a little, but thats the only thing the standard listener will ever critizise about that mix)
seems like guitars are louder in the lower mids here
so my vote goes for drones. hope that helps. again im also on opals so i think were hearing basically the same things ;-)
Yeah spot on, dcb. My thoughts exactly. The guitars on Peace were basically a case of 'shit, we've run out of time, we have to send it to mastering now'. As a result they dominate the mids of the mix in a strange way that I don't really like. The issues with that record stretch a long way before mixing - before my involvement, so there were always going to be some compromises.
@Splatt: To be honest I have no idea. I'll take a listen to those sections tomorrow, a bit wasted at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if there is any oddity going on, because the bass to all 5 songs was tracked in a day. All guitars were tracked in two days. So it was a bit of a rush job performance-wise, and something may have got through.
@Splatt: To be honest I have no idea. I'll take a listen to those sections tomorrow, a bit wasted at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if there is any oddity going on, because the bass to all 5 songs was tracked in a day. All guitars were tracked in two days. So it was a bit of a rush job performance-wise, and something may have got through.
kev
Im guybrush threepwood
Oh man, that thing.. now I remember! I was taking issue with it when we were doing the tracking. Band kept insisting it was fine, and given that we had like 2 hours left to finish the bass on the record i just threw in the towel and went with it.
I believe that's the intentional part, but no, it's never sounded 'correct' to me. I guess after a year of spinning the same mix over and over it got to a point where I became oblivious to it, so thanks for bringing it up.
@kev: Damn, that'd be a great gimmick if only it were intentional!
Yeah, its one of those things that sounds weird at first, but after another listen it works out just fine. Again, awesome sounding mix...the whole vibe reminds me of Reroute era In Flames. If I had to gripe about one thing, its the overall RMS is a little too hot for my tastes, but I don't know if this is even the final master or not.
Sigh. No, not yet, but I am making progress. I'm still waiting for one of the singers to get their shit together on 1 more song and then the rest of the songs can be mixed. Lately I have been feeling like my mixes are getting worse, not better and I'm kind of struggling with that, too.
You could always get some inspiration by letting the forum members do one of your songs.. like one of those "Here's a new song for you guys to mix!" .. hahaha
Anyway, I think it will sound good, because the music is going to make everyone to forget about analyzing the mix
Anyway, I think it will sound good, because the music is going to make everyone to forget about analyzing the mix
Harry Hughes
âââ¬â¬
- Apr 25, 2009
- 4,353
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It's a little too smashed for my taste admittedly... I tend to like stuff that's a little more backed off (think, TGE, EoH etc) on the mastering, but still quite loud.
But apart from that small issue, it's a fantastic mix..........just doens't quite top STD for largeness yet
But apart from that small issue, it's a fantastic mix..........just doens't quite top STD for largeness yet
lolzgreg
Cereal Shipping Sneapster
The Peace mix sounds more professional to me. It may have to do with the performance more than the mix, I think.
Everyone is their own worst critic. Honestly, I think if you had more time with the Untruth mixes, and had time to coax better performances, (and the masters didn't clip on sustain notes- no I will NOT let go of it) it really could have been groundbreaking on all planes possible.
You do great work Ermz. You just have to be insistent with bands that are pushing to get things done, or running out of cash that a little more time and money can mean a product that will be loved by them when they listen to it 20 years later. I never compromise, even if it means putting in more time that I should. Everything is for the good of the final product, and your name as an engineer/producer. Sometimes I've gone too far, but I could never say I haven't gone far enough.
Hey Greg, unfortunately in the real world things don't often go this way. When you deal with labels you have set deadlines and usually are faced with a very compromising set of circumstances. Both records being referred to had their own limitations. That's just how it is. Not every record can be STD, nor can every record have the budget of 'The Untouchables'. There is a reason so few records in the world are on that apex... it's because it takes much time, much money and much talent (and some planetary alignment). It's not often you will find all 3 in abundance on a project. At the end of the day nobody cares if you make the best mix in the world. 99.99% of listeners don't even know what they're hearing half the time. We do this for personal satisfaction, but it HAS to be tempered at some point by restrictions imposed by reality. You have to eat - you cannot offer free studio time forever, nor mix the same track for months on end. We're subject to dealing with less than ideal circumstances, that's just a facet of the job.
The clipping... is a mastering thing. I'll have some talks about it, but hopefully with the release of FG-X that will be a thing of the past. The EoTE record has a bit too much clipping for my liking, and whereas I can deal with it when very sparsely populating a record, if it happens often that's just wrong. I mentioned it to the band, but they didn't seem to care enough to get it tweaked up (once again, deadlines > everything). I definitely want to avoid it as much as possible on future releases.
@Splatt: Really cool to hear the 'Reroute' thing. Whilst I can't remember what that record sounds like, I did heavily reference off STD. There is something cool between the drum/bass interaction on those records, and I wanted the bass to be below the kick, so there would be free room in the mid-bass for the snare to 'bounce'. I've tried a few different ways and I think Bergstrand's approach is the best way to mix metal. Usually we fight sub-lows because the speed of the performances make them unwieldy, but if the bass takes that area you can get away with it. Problem with that is you really have to mix your arse off. It's like playing one immensely complex game of tetris.
@soultrash: Maybe not, but I'd gladly share my mix chain for a battle-axe. Might come in handy since this place gets burglarized so often!
@Harry: I'll work on it, mate... give me a few more years (and large wads of cash).
The clipping... is a mastering thing. I'll have some talks about it, but hopefully with the release of FG-X that will be a thing of the past. The EoTE record has a bit too much clipping for my liking, and whereas I can deal with it when very sparsely populating a record, if it happens often that's just wrong. I mentioned it to the band, but they didn't seem to care enough to get it tweaked up (once again, deadlines > everything). I definitely want to avoid it as much as possible on future releases.
@Splatt: Really cool to hear the 'Reroute' thing. Whilst I can't remember what that record sounds like, I did heavily reference off STD. There is something cool between the drum/bass interaction on those records, and I wanted the bass to be below the kick, so there would be free room in the mid-bass for the snare to 'bounce'. I've tried a few different ways and I think Bergstrand's approach is the best way to mix metal. Usually we fight sub-lows because the speed of the performances make them unwieldy, but if the bass takes that area you can get away with it. Problem with that is you really have to mix your arse off. It's like playing one immensely complex game of tetris.
@soultrash: Maybe not, but I'd gladly share my mix chain for a battle-axe. Might come in handy since this place gets burglarized so often!
@Harry: I'll work on it, mate... give me a few more years (and large wads of cash).
lolzgreg
Cereal Shipping Sneapster
I would say your clients do, and discriminating clients who are looking for the best AND have money to spend are definitely swayed by the obvious quality of an engineer's work. If your mixes rule, and the songs sound great, you're getting business. Most great bands are willing to spend money to better their release, and if they don't the first time, when they do an album with someone else that sounds lackluster and realize you would have done better, they would go to you.
I agree that the listeners don't have a fucking idea what is going on, but you have to consider this:
-Good mixes don't sell albums; "good songs" do
-The guitar/bass/drum tone =/= a reason to purchase an album
-"Popular" or "Professional" bands, no matter how shitty they really are, who sell tons of albums, are selling a ridiculous amount of albums for some reason or another
-Bands are egomaniacs in most cases; they want their record to sound stellar, they want it to be competitive. They want their music "painted" the right way by their engineer.
-Connecting with the band as an engineer both on a personal level and a professional one is going to make your clients happy
-Happy clients talk about your services
-When other bands hear the material you have done one previous projects and are stunned by the quality they will go to you
-Providing the best for your customers will get you THE BEST customers
-You are now working with more popular acts who sell more albums
-Your work is now featured on albums that have sold thousands of copies
-Things have come full circle, and your work has been showcased
I know you have to eat, but you can still stay up a lot later than you should making more edits, tweaking levels, etc. It's really about the drive that you have that will shine in everything that you do in life, not just audio engineering.
I think it all makes sense, and I don't really have any "bullets" that are out of line. I'd say everything is word of mouth and the finished product. I never once thought in my life I'd worth with a band that Jesse Leach or Marco Minnemann was in, and I definitely didn't think that I would have the pleasure of working with both groups potentially TWO times.
Now, you do audio engineering full time. I don't, but I do plan on it one day. Your "experiences" are definitely more valid than my "models for experience," but I can say that I've learned a lot in the short time I've been doing this stuff.
Morgan C
MAX LOUD PRESETS¯\(°_o)/¯
The Eye Of The Enemy is MUCH tighter and has much nice, clearer OHs. Overall too middy and I said I liked the guitars before but they're quite cloudy listening back again. They are very clear as to what note is being played, which is great for the music, but the tone doesn't fit the mix totally (as you've explained why).
I think the Untruth could've been much better if you'd had a bit more time - really dislike the OHs (timing is all off and they're very harsh and not-nice-sounding), kick gets lost sometimes also, and the performances as a whole are quite loose and the lead guitars stick out like a sore thumb amongst the real guitars, it really just accentuates how flat and lifeless amp sims are compared to the real deal.. there wouldn't be such a huge disparity if you'd gone with amp sims for the rhythms too, but I think you made the right choice.
But, despite these, I much prefer this production. Its fucking heavy.
I think the Untruth could've been much better if you'd had a bit more time - really dislike the OHs (timing is all off and they're very harsh and not-nice-sounding), kick gets lost sometimes also, and the performances as a whole are quite loose and the lead guitars stick out like a sore thumb amongst the real guitars, it really just accentuates how flat and lifeless amp sims are compared to the real deal.. there wouldn't be such a huge disparity if you'd gone with amp sims for the rhythms too, but I think you made the right choice.
But, despite these, I much prefer this production. Its fucking heavy.
I dig you guys always calling it as it is. If anything it reinforces my preconceptions about these mixes. Most criticisms that come up are usually ones I hold, and have since the mix process itself. For whatever reasons it's not always possible to polish them up, but it's good to hear this stuff reinforced all the same.
Morgan, you should've heard the raw drums for that CD. Before that I never had a project where I actually had to construct beats from nothing within BD. In retrospect I think we'd have been better off programming.
My ambitions for the EoTE thing were huge. I was fully planning to make it one of the best metal mixes I would possibly be capable of, within an inch of my ability. But things came up just before we begun tracking that retarded the whole process and led to a chain of events which resulted in much hair-tearing and an end product that isn't representative of my initial ambitions, though listenable as it may be.
Btw, the overheads on EoTE are an XY pair, so if you dig that clarity you may want to start using that technique.
Morgan, you should've heard the raw drums for that CD. Before that I never had a project where I actually had to construct beats from nothing within BD. In retrospect I think we'd have been better off programming.
My ambitions for the EoTE thing were huge. I was fully planning to make it one of the best metal mixes I would possibly be capable of, within an inch of my ability. But things came up just before we begun tracking that retarded the whole process and led to a chain of events which resulted in much hair-tearing and an end product that isn't representative of my initial ambitions, though listenable as it may be.
Btw, the overheads on EoTE are an XY pair, so if you dig that clarity you may want to start using that technique.
Nebulous
Daniel
Without coming in here and starting a shit fight (by knowing Ermz personally, etc) I just want to mention a few things here that I don't think are fair/ justified comments:
- In that post you point seems to have been somewhat lost....may just be me.
- You admit that you're not doing this "full time" as what Ermin is, yet you're trying to compare your input to projects with his
- In talking about the clipping Ermin had pointed out that it was the bands choice to leave it, and deadlines did not allow for him to fight against it further. This is the second release he has done for this band, the first one got them signed to their lable. I can't really see him loosing business on Mastering which isn't to your liking, or within his control.
"Discriminating clients" should walk the walk and actually learn/ investiage if the clipping was from the mix or the master (ie, speak to Ermz if they otherwise like his work).
- RE: staying up later and working harder.....I'll just say this- I barely see Ermz and when I call or message him to catch up he is either in a session or screwed from a session the night before. He does work his ass off, he's done his freebies, learnt a shit load and made me proud to know someone who is making a difference and putting these local bands within reach of such quality work.
No need to take anything here personally and I hope I'm not coming across as "butt hurt" either.
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