Need advice on recorded guitar tone

[Djabthrash]

Hi guys...

after months of posting the same comments like "your tone sounds too processed/fizzy/overgained... lower the gain, add mids,lower the presence" and "sorry i don't like this djenty POD tone" i find myself kinda struggling to get a good recorded guitar tone out of my rig with my SM57. I’m aiming for a clear, defined, tight, edgy, ballsy, in your face guitar tone  for metal/hardcore stuff (or even extreme stuff (brutal death metal&#8230 )

I've recorded some test rythm tracks (test = the playing was a bit sloppy with mistakes and fuck-ups) on one of my "test songs" (=short song with simple riffs) this summer to try to get a decent tone :

Song with guitars (dual tracked (different settings for each), Left 92% / Right 92%, High Pass at 80 Hz, Low Pass at 12 Khz, Andy’s C4) :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy%20down%20-%20NEW%20SONG%201v2%20(old%20miked%20engl%20grs)%20(w.andy%20C4%20on%20grs).mp3

Same song but just the guitars :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy%20down%20-%20NEW%20SONG%201v2%20(old%20miked%20engl%20grs)%20(w.andy%20C4%20on%20grs)%20(grs%20soloed).mp3

After that I wasn’t satisfied with the tone (too fizzy, too much air for me, too compressed/gainy… at that time I didn’t use the Hi Pass / Low Pass / C4 so it didn’t help  ), and changed settings a little bit (way less presence, a tad less gain, less bass, more mids)

With those new settings the tone sounded fine when I was listening close to the speaker (I could play hours with my ear close to it since the sound was so greaaattt !!!)

So this weekend I gave it a new try and recorded the same guitar tracks from the same song but with my new settings (but that time I couldn’t crank the cab like last time… so I recorded at bedroom volume), and guess what… I’m not satisfied with the tone either 

Song with “new” guitars (dual tracked (different settings for each), Left 92% / Right 92%, High Pass at 80 Hz, Low Pass at 12 Khz, Andy’s C4) :


http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy%20down%20-%20NEW%20SONG%201v4%20(new%20miked%20engl%20grs)%20(w.andy%20C4%20on%20grs).mp3

Same song but just the “new” guitars :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/enemy%20down%20-%20NEW%20SONG%201v4%20(new%20miked%20engl%20grs)%20(w.andy%20C4%20on%20grs)%20(grs%20soloed).mp3

For your info on both versions I didn’t use any processing on the master except a slight Eq: http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/GabmasterEqCUT.jpg

So now I’d like you to give feedback on both tones and tell me which one do you prefer…

I will give you details on the rig and settings later (I want to have “unbiased” feedback first).

EDIT :

as i was originally more focussed on getting a good recorded tone and since i've been posting the guitar tracks with post EQ and C4 in a kinda random/noobish way, here are the raw guitar takes (i dual tracked so for both times (old takes and new takes) i have a left guitar take and a right guitar take... different EQ settings on the amp for both, but same guitar and same mic placement... This was just a test so don't mind the sloppy playing and the fuck-ups ) :

old guitar takes :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/mic%20gr%20left_00.mp3

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/mic%20gr%20right_00.mp3

new guitar takes :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/new%20mic%20gr%20left_00.mp3

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/new%20mic%20gr%20right_01.mp3

So feel free to give your feedback on those raw guitar takes...

 

[Rex Rocker]

I like the second one better... I feel you're using your Hi Pass a bit too high, tho... I personally like my tone a bit boomier, but if it works for you

 

[alan1990]

Im having the same kind of difficulties, the second tone is far better though perhaps recording it louder would make it better. id realy be curious to see other peoples input on this. On second listen you may do better with a bit less gain, it may make the notes more clear, I know lowering the gain from 4ish to 3ish on my 5150 helped a ton

 

[AStacy2]

If you think your guitar sounds too compressed, then you should take off the C4. As far as the low/hi filters go, are you even listening or just sticking them on there? As far as your master eq, are you even listening to what that does because you have boosted the exact places you cut on guitar yet all you're worried about in the mix is the guitar tone? And then you used this same eq on two seperate guitar tracks too?! I don't think you actually listened enough and just stuck plugins on in a random fashion that worked for someone else under totally different circumstances and that's probably why you're not satisfied.

 

[Djabthrash]

Im having the same kind of difficulties, the second tone is far better though perhaps recording it louder would make it better. id realy be curious to see other peoples input on this. On second listen you may do better with a bit less gain, it may make the notes more clear, I know lowering the gain from 4ish to 3ish on my 5150 helped a ton

I like the second one better... I feel you're using your Hi Pass a bit too high, tho... I personally like my tone a bit boomier, but if it works for you

If you think your guitar sounds too compressed, then you should take off the C4. As far as the low/hi filters go, are you even listening or just sticking them on there? As far as your master eq, are you even listening to what that does because you have boosted the exact places you cut on guitar yet all you're worried about in the mix is the guitar tone? And then you used this same eq on two seperate guitar tracks too?! I don't think you actually listened enough and just stuck plugins on in a random fashion that worked for someone else under totally different circumstances and that's probably why you're not satisfied.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think i should reconsider the C4 settings i used (just copied the settings from the screenshot somebody tok of Andy's C4... kidna noobish and retarded in a way).

When i A/B-ed my guitar tone with and without the C4 it helped with clarity but maybe too much as it may sound too much compressed and "polished" like the guitar tones on the last Andy's records, which i don't like..

I think i'll have to tweak with the C4 compression ratio and stuff a little bit to find a good compromise between keeping the body of the raw tone and getting more clarity for the mix.

About the randomness/noobiness of the way i applied LP/HP and Master Eq, i must admit you're kinda right (even if it's not "extreme" eq-ing). I use this master EQ to give a "final shape" to my sound... but i may "cut" frequencies that are good for the guitar tone i'm after. From now on i'm gonna work without this master eq.
About the LP/HP, i A/B-ed with and without it and heard it helped for the mix but i must confess i didn't mess up a lot with different frequency settings... I'm gonna try that later.

I think my mistake here is that i didn't post raw guitar tracks whereas i'm after decent tracks first, because on the "Jason Suecof ITW" post where there are tons of clips using 5150 with cranked presence, i realized you could crank the presence and get a good sound in the mix due to the HP/LP thing... so i wanted to see how my raw tone would sound like after this "kind standard" LP/HP +C4 treatment... that was my mistake...

I'm gonna post the RAW guitar tracks tomorrow night... If you can listen to it and give me some feedback it may be great...

About the guitars i use different EQ settings ON THE AMP (one is kinda "reasonably scooped" and the other is more "mid-rangey", both eq are kidna complementary frequency-wise) but in the DAW i used the same LP/HP + C4 on both... Is it wrong ? I was thinking having different EQs on the amp was enough... What do you think ?

Thinking about both guitar tones (the older and the newer) i got, here is my assessment :

-i need to stick with my new settings ( i recorded with gain at 10/10h30 instead of 11' but i'm gonna try 9h30 for the next take; i'll keep the same eq settings (good amount of mids) ) to maintain clarity/balls/tightness, but need to use a bit more presence maybe if a "brighter" mic placement and mess up more with DAW EQ (LP/HP) and C4 do not get me the sound i want (on the old sample presence was almost cranked and on the newer one it was around 10/10h30, so i may try presence around noon)

-cranking the amp will help to get a better sound (but i may get good result even with a bedroom volume miking)

 

[Djabthrash]

Just posted the raw guitar takes so i edited the original post with the following :


EDIT :

as i was originally more focussed on getting a good recorded tone and since i've been posting the guitar tracks with post EQ and C4 in a kinda random/noobish way, here are the raw guitar takes (i dual tracked so for both times (old takes and new takes) i have a left guitar take and a right guitar take... different EQ settings on the amp for both, but same guitar and same mic placement... This was just a test so don't mind the sloppy playing and the fuck-ups ) :

old guitar takes :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/mic%20gr%20left_00.mp3

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/mic%20gr%20right_00.mp3

new guitar takes :

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/new%20mic%20gr%20left_00.mp3

http://gabriel.nodet.free.fr/new%20mic%20gr%20right_01.mp3

So feel free to give your feedback on those raw guitar takes...

 

[TheDude]

I like the old takes the best. It seems to have "more" of everything = easier to fit in a mix. It's always easier to remove than to add.

 

[Djabthrash]

I like the old takes the best. It seems to have "more" of everything = easier to fit in a mix. It's always easier to remove than to add.

Ok.

I listened to all the takes once again and i hear pros and cons for both (old and new) :

OLD : + : "more" of everything as you said (better to work with in a mix): a lot of presence, and a cranked amp when i did the takes, and maybe a better mic placement (too bad i don't remember where exactly )

- : maybe a bit too much presence, and some boominess/ lack of clarity

> According to the cons i assessed i made the following changes back then : lowered the gain a little bit (11h > 10h), rolled back the presence a lot (almost cranked > 10h30), switched off the kinda "poweramp bass boost" switch (useless if you have a bass player in the band), used more mids, and made my EQ settings more complementary for both takes (reasonably scooped on the left guitar and more mid-rangey on the right guitar).

NEW : + : clarity, almost no boominess, both guitars complement each other better (due to complementary EQ settings on the amp)

- : the sound lack of something... not enough presence... maybe a decent but not great mic placement... and of course bedroom volume instead of cranked amp...


> So for my next attempt i'm gonna stick with my amp EQ/gain settings, crank the amp and try tons of mic placement.
If it still lack of presence i will add some on my amp (but not cranked since i hate fizz and too much presence).

Next episode coming soon... I hope i will finally get the sound i'm yearning for...

Thanks again to all of those who gave feedback and suggestions already. Those who didn't and want to... feel free to do it it's very helpful to me !