Nightingale-White Darkness Lyrical waste

[AlexGuinness]

There is a lot about your post that really does not make sense to me, much of it may be use of the language (not sure where you are from, but my initial guess had been from the US)... some of it may be my unenlightened state.

Consider you are communicating with people that are not approaching this from your own perspective. If you re-read your post, you should see that we (at least I) will not understand.

The glaring example:

Religion is lunacy, Im not talking about religion.

You may not care that I don't understand, but if I am representative of others here, then you would just be wasting your time if you didn't try and be clear.

I reject much of what you say, although I cannot be bothered to go back and research anything to support my theories. My life choices have been made.

You may have a point about other religions plagiarising from Christianity, although I thought they were just different interpretations of the same constrictive control structure.

I certainly do know that many of the establish festivals and dates have been "adopted" by the church, very conveniently. The Pagans come to mind.

What I do know is that The Bible should never be analysed down to the word, or taken literally. We all played Chinese Whispers as children, we all know how it works...

In a previous conversation off-forum with Kenneth I had asked him when the first recorded written version of the Bible had been. I had always believed it to be about 600AD, I cannot remember the result of his research, but it was still something like 430AD. That is a lot of distortion even before the corruption that has come in the extensive translation over the years. The translators control information. They have total power over everyone else.

By all means take the "interesting story book" as a moral guide, it has some good teachings. Why would you relinquish your own free thought though? For the record, my moral code is not dissimilar from True Christians, I just don't want my spirituality to be ruined by someone else's interpretations.

You make reference to the fact that "A wise person would choose the Bible"... Can you justify please, I do not understand? Are you using wise to indicate someone that has been through the same enlightenment as you, or are you defining wisdom in another way?

 

[chrisdoig24k]

Just one little bone to pick with that last post (although I'm all for the rest of it). The Bible is not one book that was written at once. It is considered more of a 'historic collection of texts'.

 

[AlexGuinness]

Just one little bone to pick with that last post (although I'm all for the rest of it). The Bible is not one book that was written at once. It is considered more of a 'historic collection of texts'.

Very true.

I believe that just adds weight to my main motivation for the post, to question why people let this book rule their lives.

It seems not to be an informed choice in the main, but instead a leap of faith, to wholeheartedly accept everything without question.

I have never been able to understand that, not sure I ever will.

 

[cenzu]

As I understand it,
there was a meeting where high priests and people of status, chose what texts should be included into the bible...
that is why it all fits together so well.
because the ones that didn't fit in were burned, or thrown away.

there are a lot of texts written during the time of jesus, and what not.
the ones in the bible are just carefully selected out of many.

Also what Alex said about translations, is very true.
In the time many text's were translated from latin, or whatever, into greek.
But at this time, there had already passed by hundreds of years since some of the text's were written. ass we all know, language tends to change over the years, so I ask you all (mainly gar);
how do we know the translations were done correctly?

I question everything.
I am not one to give into blind faith over something I read.
Hasn't any of you come across the old saying "Don't believe everything you read?" (works also with "hear").
The printed word isn't always the absolute truth... and besides... the human mind tends to overdo some details, to say the least.

Now, finally...
I don't have any objections to the existence of Jesus.
I believe he might have lived, and eventually died on the cross.
He might have preached about forgiveness and the name of god.

However, I do not believe in him being the son of god, or him having divine gifts.

I grant you, he probably was a wise man, and probably something of what you might call an magician nowdays, an illusionist, who knew how to "take the crowd". That would surely explain the "wonders" he made.
For hell's sake, he might have even believed himself in being the son of god.
You know the asylums are filled with people who believe that.

 

[AnTz0r]

they were translated from greek into latin... the original NT was written in greek (not the OT / torah obviously).

the differences in translation may be subtle. take one of the 10 commandments: thou shalt not kill! The original was more like: thou shalt not murder. Subtle difference in meaning, big difference in implications

indeed there are many more texts. recently the gospel of judas was published. plenty more books that are considered un-canonical, differences exist between different christian groups.

 

[cenzu]

they were translated from greek into latin... the original NT was written in greek (not the OT / torah obviously).

Ok, sorry about that error. I didn't have the energy to investigate in the matter, just wrote from mind what I could remember.

yes,
the errors may be small in the translation,
but may end up as a bigger error in context.

 

[Kenneth R.]

By no means am I a good enough representative to discuss this, yet I try:

What I find interesting about it being multiply-authored is that the various accounts, particularly of the New Testament and those of prophesy in the Old Testament, match up. By matching up, I mean that the predictions of the prophets did in fact take place, if you understand what their carefully worded phrases meant.
For example, in the old testament Abraham is told he will have more children than sand on a beach. Yet, he died without that literally taking place. However, in the times after his death and the deaths of his biological children, the people of Israel looked to Abraham as a father figure (since through his descendents Isaac and David they became a nation). That nation is what was meant by the original OT prediction. Yet, even then more was intended, when Jesus came and told people of himself, then those who joined him were also considered "the people of Israel" and today, though I sincerely doubt they are all honest, there claim to be millions of Christians.

You could argue that the translators and priests doctored it so this would appear to happen, which I consider a mammoth task for which I would greatly admire the skills of such people, or- that the simpler consideration is that these multiple authors did in fact experience the same events from their own perspectives, and unless all of them are lying, the points which all record the same are then common to all accounts. Now, I will not immediately jump to say that makes those events true, however it does make them more credible. Different people with different backgrounds and even different languages recorded strikingly similar events, several of which can be confirmed by archeological studies.

We should also remember that when questioning the quality of translation, that many original texts written in the original languages (Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, etc) have been found and can be checked for accuracy with the translated Latin, English, whathaveyou.

Of course, Alex is also right to say that blindly believing every word is foolish. One must be critical of all literature, and as I pointed out before, there are a few passages where I feel the writer is not divinely-inspired but giving their own commentary, and I disagree with that commentary. Likewise the entire book is not to be taken literally nor figuratively, instead there is, as in many books, usage of both to illustrate the message.

 

[paradoxile]

about the Old Testament as one who speaks fluent hebrew and has the studied the text in both hebrew and english i can say that a lot of nuances were lost in translation...just as an example the hebrew word "yera" means love and fear combined...I believe the whole "love" meaning was completely lost in translation. there are also tiny markings next to letters in the bible that indicate how you are supposed to sing the words during prayer and also indicate of meaning when the words alone may be interpreted in several ways.

it's a great day to be jewish

I used to watch some christian television preachers when i had my white nights simply out of boredom and I've watched respected Doctors of Christianity ignoring completely Jesus' as being a jewish male and apart from the miracles and stuff of this sort he did lead his life according to jewish norms and rules(set in the old testament).

@cenzu: if you were talking about the old testament then it was not a gathering of sources and those that didn't fit were thrown away or burnedthey were just not included and were called the external books...some of them survived, some didn't and some went into the new testament.
but apart from that even the sources that were included were edited...got a vesre stiked out, chronological order changed, even changed the entire meanings of many things by manipulative editing...and there is evidence for those things, one of them is in the story of gideon.

I believe the new testament was edited the same way...the only difference is the catholic church declared fractions in christianity that held different gospels that describe Judas as not a betrayer but as one who was told to french kiss Jesus by Jesus himself and knew about the crucifixion and the resurrection before all of the other apostles as heretics and ordered them killed and the gospels burned.

 

[paradoxile]

@Ken: "since through his descendents Isaac and David they became a nation"

not David...Jacob
he was the son of Isaac and the father of 13 children...one was josepsh(with his sexy technicolor thingy) and the others were the fathers of the 12 clans of israel.
David was the second king of Israel(after King Saul), long after both Moses and Joshua.

now about the whole "more than grains of sand" thing...most books in the old testament were not just edited but usually written about 1-2 hundred years post factum
these stories back then were passed from father to son from teacher to students...somewhere along the way this and that were bound to get twisted. most likely prophecies that didn't come true weren't even mentioned or simply edited out.

 

[BloodSword]

lol buddy, I quoted gar, not you =) I didn't have a problem with what you said ^^

I don't have a problem with spiritual people. I do with organized religion, especially Evangelical, or alternatively, fundamentalist variations that heavily enforce thinking and behavior. Which is why I refer to cattle pens.

Edit: Gar's quote thing broke, so when I hit quote it also included the part you wrote that he was trying to quote

Understood. I to take issue with organized religions. I don't attend church, for the reasons that you and me have both stated. My praise, thankfulness and love can be sufficiently expressed to God within the walls of my own home and through my heart. I have and will never be one of the proverbial "lambs led to slaughter." Now, time to put on some ripping Metal.

 

[BloodSword]

gar977, I appreciate and respect your beliefs and views. That being said, It seems to me that you are taking Jesus's instruction to "minister" to those who do not know God. As you know, this is a music forum with people from all backgrounds in life. You might better serve Jesus by ministering th those who you can have face time with, looking them in the eye as you expound your faith, and getting your point across. I believe you would have more success, not for you, but for Jesus. Let it be known, that God is fully aware of what you are doing. And that his heart abounds with love for you. For me, God is all that matters. He is the centerpiece for my existance. Not other humans, for they will always let you down, including you and me because we are all sinners. With God on our side we can not fail. Music is a gift from God. And I must go and crank up Nightingale. Peace.

 

[Stilgar]

Stilgar, you can believe whatever you want to believe. This man on radio knows everything going on in the world in great accuracy like no other.

This is why I said you need to travel the world and see things with your own eyes. Whether you get information from a book or directly from a person, you get someone else's interpretation of the facts. As humans we will all interpret the same facts differently, but if you see the facts for yourself, then at least it's YOUR interpretation, not someone else's. Nobody can be totally objective. Your (as in anybody's) experiences in life will always color your interpretations of the facts.

I guess the only way to convince you that his statement is false, is to have you travel over here and see for yourself. It seems to me that you are not ready for that at the moment, but I hope one day you will be. In my personal experience his comment would actually apply more to the USA than to the Nordic countries.

If believing in only Gods word(The Bible) is narrow minded- in the judgement you referred to me as,. Then Bro you got me. Yes, I am narrow minded in that regard and proud of it.

That's just a small part of if. But I said I wouldn't comment anymore about it, so let's just drop it.

Jesus died for your sins too, and I hope you will use your own "free will" to accept him one day. Your free to beleive in Odin or whoever, but I would be sad because I know its not the way to Heaven.

I never said I believe in Odin more than I believe in the Christian god. But even if I did, that would be no reason to be sad. In that case, my goal wouldn't have been to go to Heaven anyway, but to Valhalla.

Jokes aside. You don't KNOW it for a fact. You BELIEVE it. I have had my spiritual journey. I feel secure in my spirituality. I am at peace with myself and I'm happy where I'm at. I can't really summarize my beliefs in a short post. However I can say that I believe that most of the different religious stuff is just different interpretations of the same things.

I chose to live my life respecting other people, their feelings and their beliefs. Not because I was told to do so, or because I want to be rewarded in an afterlife, or whatever. I did it because I am an empathic human being and I WANT to do so of my own free will.

So don't feel sorry for me. I live a life that could be considered living more after Christian values than many people that call themselves Christians do.

My life has completely changed and I finally have peace my friend. Before it was in turmoil as many on this planet full of sin. Its a life changing experience.
Thanks All! God Bless.

It is good that you have found peace with the help of Christianity. But it does seem to me that you are still a bit troubled and not totally sure of yourself. But that's only my interpretations of your posts.

 

[paradoxile]

yeah...believing is åsome but it's incredibly stupid to believe something that you could know for fact that is or isn't true.
like those idiots who believe dinosaurs never existed despite the huge dinosaurs skeletons in museums.

 

[AlexGuinness]

I live a life that could be considered living more after Christian values than many people that call themselves Christians do.

Here, here.

I somehow got sidetracked from making the same point. I am exactly the same...

 

[cenzu]

I think this thread already reached it's high point,
let's all discard god and start worship Dag's underpants!

All hail the underpants!

 

[Maron]

I think this thread already reached it's high point,
let's all discard god and start worship Dag's underpants!

All hail the underpants!

Those underpants are truely evil! Beware...They are the opposite of everything that is good and beautiful in this world.

 

[paradoxile]

Those underpants are truely evil! Beware...They are the opposite of everything that is good and beautiful in this world.

don't be jealous Erik(it's not good for the blood pressure)...we'll worship your undies too if you show them to us

 

[paradoxile]

Here, here.

I somehow got sidetracked from making the same point. I am exactly the same...

yeah me too ...and that's really sad for those fuckers since I'm not even Christian...for me it's not really Christian values but I just follow what I like to call common decency norms like being nice, not holding a grudge and smiting the infidels with my åsome guilt skills.

 

[Demilich]

Highlight of this thread = band members' random interjections about undergarment deities

 

[Stilgar]

yeah me too ...and that's really sad for those fuckers since I'm not even Christian...for me it's not really Christian values but I just follow what I like to call common decency norms like being nice, not holding a grudge and smiting the infidels with my åsome guilt skills.

Heh... The same goes for me off course.