Nirvana

[Satanstoenail]

I was speaking about the people I knew/know that are musicians of various sorts, as well as the response to certain songs by the crowd in the bar scene. As I implied in my first post, not my cup of tea or anyone else I know. Yet the other bands I mentioned were more appreaciated, like STP to name another.

That's the only part of my post you're going to respond to? Ok well most of the people I know are musicians of sorts as well, I've still got no idea how this is any sort of valid point though.

Actually now that Im thinking back more, there was more than Nirvana going on at that time. Beside the bands I mentioned there was say "Spin doctors" who were putting some funk into the rock. How about the broader success of Country ? I suppose rap as well. Many Gen Xers becoming Deadheads. The early 90's was also when many of todays most successful progressive heavy metal bands cut their teeth. So by this I have to agree with comments made that Nirvana was made out to be bigger than they really were, in their nitch maybe, outside of that they were noteworthy... for many things.

OF COURSE there was much going on outside of grunge, but I'll say it again since you ignored it before, have you forgotten how massive Smells Like Teen Spirit was at the time? Grunge was everywhere and Nirvana were the band that broke through and spearheaded the whole thing. Comparing one-hit-wonders such as Spin Doctors is relevant how?

I do follow what you are saying though, I just dont get the cartwheel thing revolving around Nirvana, supposed "anti hero" yet there seems to be the opposite reaction by fans, increased because, oh no Kurt couldnt take it and killed himself. "I hate myself and wanna die" great !

If you can't see/refuse to see that he was idolised to the point of ridiculousness BEFORE he killed himself as well as after, then I don't really know what else to say and I don't really care to have a ten page argument about it because really who cares.

 

[Satanstoenail]

A good one is the "Come As Your Are" riff, which is directly lifted from "Eighties" by Killing Joke, which happens to be one of my favorite songs. In fact, Killing Joke took him to court over it, but decided to drop the case later. It's not too shocking that they were mentioned in his journals as a band that he liked.

Hah, I figured you'd have something. Yeah fair enough, I can see the similarity. Got any others? I'm actually interested to know how much of this went on..

Among other publications and unofficial music lists, he's listed as the 12th greatest in Rolling Stone and they also recognized the solo in "Smells Like Teen Spirit" as the 10th greatest ever. Given how popular this magazine is and how influential it is on some of its readers, I'd say many people would probably also name him as one of the greatest.

Ok I'll rephrase: I don't think anyone who knows much about music or playing guitar would regard him as a really good guitar player.

 

[razoredge]

Sorry, I thought I was responding enough to what you were saying. Much of what you say about his guitar status as well as Omnis about Rolling Stone ratings, which are listener based polls, key words "listener based" corresponds with the points I was making.

"Smells like teen spirit" - yes was the song Weird Al did his thing with that I mentioned. Was also one of the songs the band I did sound for covered and pretty much got the "oh this song again" reaction. It was big on the heavy radio stations, played twice every hour, recieved large popularity and request by... teens... so yes it smelled like teen spirit but was only one musical level above smashing garbage cans together. No, I actually liked it for a short spell, a note worthy song. Grunge was influential but in reality "grunge" itself was very short lived comparitively. I mentioned other music styles and bands of the period in thinking about your statement as Cobain being the ultimate anti-hero of gen X, I think thats overboard. So in sum as I said before, I believe he was idolized by a certain group before his death and became more than he was after his death.

 

[tagradh]

Misss Omni. Ilu. *blushes like redredrosesssss*

We're only 'very high' now though. SHAME ON ME.

 

[Omni]

Hah, I figured you'd have something. Yeah fair enough, I can see the similarity. Got any others? I'm actually interested to know how much of this went on..

I know there was a few more, but I don't remember what they were because I don't actually like the other songs he lifted riffs from. I'm sure it's online, but I'm going to work in a second.

Ok I'll rephrase: I don't think anyone who knows much about music or playing guitar would regard him as a really good guitar player.

Neither do I.



Another thing that I don't really care for is people who think that he invented grunge, when Nirvana was actually one of the last bands to form out of the major ones. He gets a lot of credit for stupid, incorrect things.

Misss Omni. Ilu. *blushes like redredrosesssss*

We're only 'very high' now though. SHAME ON ME.

 

[Liverslapper]

I dislike Nirvana.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Sorry, I thought I was responding enough to what you were saying. Much of what you say about his guitar status as well as Omnis about Rolling Stone ratings, which are listener based polls, key words "listener based" corresponds with the points I was making.

"Smells like teen spirit" - yes was the song Weird Al did his thing with that I mentioned. Was also one of the songs the band I did sound for covered and pretty much got the "oh this song again" reaction. It was big on the heavy radio stations, played twice every hour, recieved large popularity and request by... teens... so yes it smelled like teen spirit but was only one musical level above smashing garbage cans together. No, I actually liked it for a short spell, a note worthy song. Grunge was influential but in reality "grunge" itself was very short lived comparitively. I mentioned other music styles and bands of the period in thinking about your statement as Cobain being the ultimate anti-hero of gen X, I think thats overboard. So in sum as I said before, I believe he was idolized by a certain group before his death and became more than he was after his death.

Look, you're just pretty much saying a bunch of stuff here and hardly any of it has anything to so with the original point being debated, so I'm just going to leave it.

Another thing that I don't really care for is people who think that he invented grunge, when Nirvana was actually one of the last bands to form out of the major ones. He gets a lot of credit for stupid, incorrect things.

I agree it's annoying, but this is shit that was bound to happen given the success of the band. People think Elvis invented rock 'n roll.

 

[Vimana]

I like Nirvana every once in a while. If I listen to them too much too often I get tired of them.

 

[challenge_everything]

I like Nirvana every once in a while. If I listen to them too much too often I get tired of them.

.

I think people make the mistake of judging Nirvana from the point of view of an arena rock band. That was the pigeonhole which people tried to put them in. IMO they were essentially a punk rock band and need to be viewed that way. They always sounded better rough. Nevermind is their worst album for that reason - it's awfully produced. All of the songs on that album sound better on other compilations/bootlegs/live albums.

 

[razoredge]

Look, you're just pretty much saying a bunch of stuff here and hardly any of it has anything to so with the original point being debated, so I'm just going to leave it.

Thats because you cant follow along unless everything is spelled out directly for you. You said Nirvana was really big, I simply asked if you really thought so and stated that I didnt think they were that BIG outside of a certain age group that leaned that way. You implied that they pretty much represented Gen X and I mentioned alot of other different music that was going on at the same time. RHCP to name yet another. You are correct however, all bases have been covered.

 

[BloodSword]

I don't agree. Nirvana were absolutely massive while Kurt was alive. Sure, his death probably boosted their album sales for a while and placed Kurt in the "immortal tragic rockstar" league, but you have to remember just how huge they were after Nevermind came out. Kurt was touted as the saviour of music, the ultimate anti-hero to Generation X etc. Actually, it could be argued that Kurt being so idolised while he was alive contributed significantly to his disillusion with the music business and subsequent suicide.

You raise some good points,man. I guess this is just my "subjective" opinion; I never thought that Nirvana was "huge." Maybe to some, but not me. I liked the album "Bleach" better than "Nevermind." And I remember when Cobain sadly killed himself, the man seemed tortured by his inner demons, not to mention his hideous girlfriend Courtney, I can't remember her name. I also remember some music critic saying,(paraphrasing)"Kurt Cobain was as good a songwriter as John Lennon"!!!!!!!!!!!!!. There is fuckin' no way that Cobain will ever top Lennon in that category. Period. However, I think this discussion could be generational. I'm sure Cobain connected to alot of young people with his music. As John Lennon did for my generation. I respect Nirvana as musicians. Kurt Cobain is taking a dirt nap.IMO, he didn't leave that huge of a musical legacy.

 

[CAIRATH]

I'd probably like Nirvana more if Kurt Cobain's vocals and lyrics didn't seem retarded to me, they were more original and he didn't obviously rip off guitar riffs from bands that I like (and so did he, since he wrote about liking them in his journals) and then get a lot of credit for coming up with them and being a really good guitar player.

To be fair though, he did also play a part in giving awesome bands like the Melvins more recognition and helped them get a major label deal by constantly name dropping them.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Thats because you cant follow along unless everything is spelled out directly for you. You said Nirvana was really big, I simply asked if you really thought so and stated that I didnt think they were that BIG outside of a certain age group that leaned that way. You implied that they pretty much represented Gen X and I mentioned alot of other different music that was going on at the same time. RHCP to name yet another. You are correct however, all bases have been covered.

*facepalm*

You raise some good points,man. I guess this is just my "subjective" opinion; I never thought that Nirvana was "huge." Maybe to some, but not me. I liked the album "Bleach" better than "Nevermind." And I remember when Cobain sadly killed himself, the man seemed tortured by his inner demons, not to mention his hideous girlfriend Courtney, I can't remember her name. I also remember some music critic saying,(paraphrasing)"Kurt Cobain was as good a songwriter as John Lennon"!!!!!!!!!!!!!. There is fuckin' no way that Cobain will ever top Lennon in that category. Period. However, I think this discussion could be generational. I'm sure Cobain connected to alot of young people with his music. As John Lennon did for my generation. I respect Nirvana as musicians. Kurt Cobain is taking a dirt nap.IMO, he didn't leave that huge of a musical legacy.

I don't say they were huge out of some sentimental affection for the band or the time, I say they were huge because they were fucking huge, Nevermind was a number one album, it knocked Michael Jackson out of the top spot and signified the entrance of alternative rock into the mainstream. Smells Like Teen Spirit was so overplayed that there was a time when I never wanted to hear it again. I don't believe most of the bullshit that mainstream music journos have spouted about Kurt and the band, but I don't think the musical legacy can be denied, no matter what your opinion of Kurt of their music.

 

[Ender Rises]

I don't particularly care for Nirvana. There was a time when I loved them but I discovered Alice in Chains not long afterwards and listen to them regularly to this day. Nirvana is just too simplistic to be listened to in long doses, though the songwriting isn't bad and the lyrics are excellent.

Regarding the legacy, in my opinion Kurt wasn't that great of a songwriter, though he was the voice of Generation X and that can't be denied by any means. Nevermind and In Utero were absolutely huge at the time and still are. Look at the face of modern rock and alternative rock music... the imprint of Nirvana is unmistakable.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Look, you're just pretty much saying a bunch of stuff here and hardly any of it has anything to so with the original point being debated, so I'm just going to leave it.





I agree it's annoying, but this is shit that was bound to happen given the success of the band. People think Elvis invented rock 'n roll.

Your about the only one other then me and a couple of others who get it when it comes to Nirvana... Guys with a generation gap like Blood or ignorant close minded ones like Razor will never get it when it comes to punk influenced bands/music...

Nirvana can be equated to perhaps The Who, Neil Young, Black Sabbath etc. in that they were not about the "guitar" but about the songwriting. Kurt never claimed to be great at guitar nor have any of his contemporaries in grunge and punk etc. Kurt was adequate and unique in his guitar playing. He could certainly play it well when he wanted to as evidenced in the Unplugged album. Kurt, The Who, Neil Young , other punk influenced bands etc. were about the attitude and the rhythm which created great songwriting.

Anything Razor says to an extent can be applied to SRV and other guys/bands he worships. Things he says like being idolized by a certain group and becoming bigger then they were after their death etc.. and btw a rock star's death doesn't always make them bigger as evidenced by the death of the lead singers of AIC, Blind Melon, and other musicians throughout history.. to be Bigger you would have had to been big or had a mystique while alive first...

And to say Nirvana only had an impact on Grunge is really ignorant because they opened the doors for Alternative music in general that is still felt. They were not one hit wonders nor were they equivalent to an "boy" band that come and go. They had a unique sound that wasn't always safe like AIC's and Pearl Jam etc.. and when they did a coversong they made it their own (listen to The Man Who Sold the World and Where did you Sleep Last night? on the Unplugged album)... he also pushed underground bands to get recognition like Flipper, Melvins, Mudhoney etc.. So he wasn't always about himself or Nirvana...

I can understand Blood not understanding them because of a generation gap but Razor's ignorance I can only attribute to his analyzing every single band/genre based on the guitar first and sometimes only, and to him not listening to much of Nirvana other then perhaps NeverMind. Also not understanding "punk" music because it's guitar parts are not technical. Punk music started with 3 chord songs and back to basics rock music.

And to say Nirvana/Kurt only became legend due to his death is total ignorance... thats like saying The Sex Pistols only became legend due to Sid's death... they were already a legend before his death... and their music was not about technical guitar etc... they were about attitude and back to basics songwriting... though simplistic their songs were great and still are... they have passed the test of time and so has Nirvana....

 

[Thoth-Amon]

In Utero is a great cd. I remembered really hating it when I first heard it (I expected Nevermind Part 2). But I kept hearing it played at my friend's house who had cancer at the time (when I would visit him) and it just clicked.

 

[Ender Rises]

They had a unique sound that wasn't always safe like AIC's and Pearl Jam etc.

Are you saying AiC's songwriting is always safe? If so, go listen to Dirt a few more times. The singles might have been safe but man, they were known as the heaviest of the grunge bands and they came out with Sap and Jar of Flies. Alice in Chains are one of the few bands who got lighter as they went on and yet were still accepted and revered by their fans. I'm just... I can't see how you can call either band, or any original grunge band, safe. AiC was darker than any other grunge band except maybe Soundgarden and jumped all over the spectrum from dark, tormented, heavy songs to light, catchy, beautiful songs that are still amazingly well written (I'm comparing something like Hate to Feel, Dirt, or Angry Chair to No Excuses or I Stay Away in my head here.)

If you aren't saying they're safe... I apologize.

As for Nirvana, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just really had a problem with saying Nirvana was more daring than AiC. Not saying it's the other way around either, they both just did their own thing and carved their own niche in the grunge movement. And I attribute AiC's success to Nirvana... no Smells Like Teen Spirit and America wouldn't have given a rat's red ass about Man in the Box. Nirvana and the grunge movement took AiC from a glam band to a grunge/metal band.

 

[razoredge]

Thats alright, the Sex Pistolas are legendary too. Question is who are they legendary too. Im sure most people know who they are but Im not sure many could name a sex pistol "song".

I think Alice would have done just fine with man in the box regardless if Nirvana ever existed or not. The difference in sound between the two bands is day and night.

 

[Omni]

I'm pretty sure that most people know "Anarchy in the UK" and "God Save the Queen" by The Sex Pistols, especially people from the UK.

 

[BloodSword]

Your about the only one other then me and a couple of others who get it when it comes to Nirvana... Guys with a generation gap like Blood or ignorant close minded ones like Razor will never get it when it comes to punk influenced bands/music...

Nirvana can be equated to perhaps The Who, Neil Young, Black Sabbath etc. in that they were not about the "guitar" but about the songwriting. Kurt never claimed to be great at guitar nor have any of his contemporaries in grunge and punk etc. Kurt was adequate and unique in his guitar playing. He could certainly play it well when he wanted to as evidenced in the Unplugged album. Kurt, The Who, Neil Young , other punk influenced bands etc. were about the attitude and the rhythm which created great songwriting.

Anything Razor says to an extent can be applied to SRV and other guys/bands he worships. Things he says like being idolized by a certain group and becoming bigger then they were after their death etc.. and btw a rock star's death doesn't always make them bigger as evidenced by the death of the lead singers of AIC, Blind Melon, and other musicians throughout history.. to be Bigger you would have had to been big or had a mystique while alive first...

And to say Nirvana only had an impact on Grunge is really ignorant because they opened the doors for Alternative music in general that is still felt. They were not one hit wonders nor were they equivalent to an "boy" band that come and go. They had a unique sound that wasn't always safe like AIC's and Pearl Jam etc.. and when they did a coversong they made it their own (listen to The Man Who Sold the World and Where did you Sleep Last night? on the Unplugged album)... he also pushed underground bands to get recognition like Flipper, Melvins, Mudhoney etc.. So he wasn't always about himself or Nirvana...

I can understand Blood not understanding them because of a generation gap but Razor's ignorance I can only attribute to his analyzing every single band/genre based on the guitar first and sometimes only, and to him not listening to much of Nirvana other then perhaps NeverMind. Also not understanding "punk" music because it's guitar parts are not technical. Punk music started with 3 chord songs and back to basics rock music.

And to say Nirvana/Kurt only became legend due to his death is total ignorance... thats like saying The Sex Pistols only became legend due to Sid's death... they were already a legend before his death... and their music was not about technical guitar etc... they were about attitude and back to basics songwriting... though simplistic their songs were great and still are... they have passed the test of time and so has Nirvana....

Good Explanation. One thing I don't agree with is "they have a unique sound that wasn't always safe like AIC" What's safe? Jerry Cantrell is a tremendous guitarist. Layne was way better of a vocalist than Cobain. AIC were edgy and tight, much better musicians as a whole than Nirvana. But hey, that's just my opinion and my understanding of Nirvana. AIC composed a blues/rock/metal hybrid. I never thought of them as a "grunge" band. AIC appealed to me more musically. Remember, It's alright to disagree, it's only about our subjective musical opinions.Peace,man.