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hexwind
Creepiness Och Terrorism
Nah, atheists are generally prepared to listen to a reasoned argument, but would often offer a reasoned argument in response, whereas believers generally tend to hang on to their beliefs and avoid reasoned arguments at all costs. Atheism is lack of belief rather than belief itself. I find that believers are 'atheists' in terms of the Gods of other religions, but won't project the same arguments they deploy for not believing in the other religion's gods into their own religion. So... I guess believers are atheists to a degree, but 'standard' atheists just believe in one less god than the believers.
You get good ones and bad ones, same as any group....
Emm.. I think you got me wrong. I think that Atheists believe that there is no God or a supernatural being. so it's a belief however..
But what I meant was, he said that Atheists don't care about what you believe in, so why the hell most of the Atheists that I know from different parts on the world mock Believers or what they believe in. I mean, look at your avatar
!!! I don't know what you believe in (and i don't actually care while ain't my business) but don't you think that it is some sorts of mocking Christians' beliefs to some extents, provocation ? Just like what happened in Dannamark i think, when drew some gimmick pics about Muhammed, it was just another prob ! I'm not judging you or any atheist here so don't get me wrong ^^
Kenneth R.
Cináed
squidfetish
Member
Emm.. I think you got me wrong. I think that Atheists believe that there is no God or a supernatural being. so it's a belief however..
But what I meant was, he said that Atheists don't care about what you believe in, so why the hell most of the Atheists that I know from different parts on the world mock Believers or what they believe in. I mean, look at your avatar
Yes mate, I understand your point. I consider myself to be an atheist as I don't believe in deities, purely because there is no good reason for me to do so. I also don't believe that there is a big green troll in the centre of Saturn that controls our weather with a PS2 pad - I can't categorically prove it, but until someone provides me with some evidence, I'm going to laugh at the very idea. So... I'm an a-the-ist in the same way I'm an a-troll-ist... and I consider the idea of a god to be on largely the same intellectual footing as the troll.
As far as I'm concerned, people can believe in whatever they like as long as they don't force it on other people or indoctrinate their kids with it. I just think dogmatic metaphysics is a bit of an anachronism in the 21st century. Like most atheists I know, I am prepared to listen to a reasoned argument on theology, philosophy or whatever, I just can't get on with the airy 'lord works in mysterious ways' routine from people that have never thought about their beliefs, just had it spoon-fed to them. However, you get daft atheists as well as clever ones, same as any group.
Yes, we all mock each other's viewpoints, it's part of human nature. I think that's fine as long as it doesn't get out of hand and start demonising other groups (But lets face it, more often than not there are geopolitical and/or resource issues with most conflicts, it's just that religion is a pre-existing very clever way to marshal the troops, so to speak!). Atheists, agnostics, christians, buddhists, muslims, scientologists and whoever should take their lumps along with everyone else. People from all religions tells jokes about other religions, and I think that's healthy as long as they're prepared to take some back. It may go some way to helping people realise the amount of common ground they have.
hexwind
Creepiness Och Terrorism
I partly agree with what you are saying dude.. but, I don't think we should support the idea of mocking each other's viewpoints, not only in theology, but in any field unless it's a friendly joke if you know what I mean, I totally accept jokes of all themes as long as they are for the sake of having fun and not meant to hurt others. Otherwise, it will just create another problem and disrespect between people.
About kids... I can't personally interfere in the way people raise their kids theologically, unless, it's something like " you are the chosen one, and all the others are sinners and you have the right to punish them for not sharing the same beliefs with you". Because, if a kid was raised as a Christian,Muslim, Jews, Atheist or whatever,it doesn't matter, the vast majority has access to enough information to make their own mind... thus, what your parents/school/sunday school taught you when you were a kid, doesn't matter cause eventually you will decide what YOU believe in.
About kids... I can't personally interfere in the way people raise their kids theologically, unless, it's something like " you are the chosen one, and all the others are sinners and you have the right to punish them for not sharing the same beliefs with you". Because, if a kid was raised as a Christian,Muslim, Jews, Atheist or whatever,it doesn't matter, the vast majority has access to enough information to make their own mind... thus, what your parents/school/sunday school taught you when you were a kid, doesn't matter cause eventually you will decide what YOU believe in.
squidfetish
Member
Yep, I agree with most of that. I think it needs to be said that there is plenty of oversensitivity and preciousness where religious dogma is concerned though - I don't think it's reasonable to have to tiptoe around people for fear of offending their sensibilities with regard to unproven religious beliefs. I know quite a few people that would appear to have been born offended and spend a large part of their lives finding things to be offended about. Hopefully they are a minority. As for kids... it's a difficult one, as we have to balance parents rights to bring up their kids in a faith system, with kids rights to be given sensible, accurate and useful information. Expounding a two thousand year old wordview isn't really in a child's best interests, I just hope that most people are able to be a little more progressive about faith and explore common ground rather than operating a them and us policy. But when you look around at various communities I can't help wondering if we are having any success.
What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's witness with a punk rocker?
Someone who knocks on your door and tells you to fuck off.
noble savage
Member
Well put, Squidfetish!
I have to honest here, on a scale of religious belief (0 being hardcore atheism and 10 being hardcore religiosity) I'm at about a -11.
I'm not actually sure there is or ever will be any "evidence" or well reasoned argument that can ever convince me of a god's existence. I even used to say that if a god parted a mountain and commanded me to believe, I would believe instantly and without question. Now, after rethinking it all, I still wouldn't believe.
Every single one of us is cursed by the fact that our brains are not, in any sense of the word, objective. We see patterns where non should exist (Like in toast, for example). We misconstrue memories and events of our lives instead of storing what actually happened (Although we are certain, in our minds, that it actually did happen that way.) All of our senses are shaped, stretched and interpreted by an organ which defines its own unique reality and not one in which any two people can agree on.
Take the "parting of the mountain by a god" example. I can evaluate the situation as such:
What are the odds that some alien creature (That evolved in our universe) is just fucking with my brain and claiming to be something that it is not by using an understanding of our culture, my own mind and advanced technology? Very low, but possible.
What are the odds of me being nothing more than a computer simulation with someone behind the screen fucking with my sensory input? Pretty low, but still plausible just based on how far we have come in the last 150 years technology wise.
What are the odds of a single, sentient entity creating countless light years of ever expanding time and space (That happens to reside outside of the time and space that we think we know exists) and then traveling to Earth to prove to me that it exists? Way, way, way less plausible than something just fucking with me.
Even if an event defies everything we know to be true about the world in which inhabit, there are always more likely explanations than a god as described by holy books.
So, I guess I am a fundamentalist about my stance on the issue.
I have to honest here, on a scale of religious belief (0 being hardcore atheism and 10 being hardcore religiosity) I'm at about a -11.
I'm not actually sure there is or ever will be any "evidence" or well reasoned argument that can ever convince me of a god's existence. I even used to say that if a god parted a mountain and commanded me to believe, I would believe instantly and without question. Now, after rethinking it all, I still wouldn't believe.
Every single one of us is cursed by the fact that our brains are not, in any sense of the word, objective. We see patterns where non should exist (Like in toast, for example). We misconstrue memories and events of our lives instead of storing what actually happened (Although we are certain, in our minds, that it actually did happen that way.) All of our senses are shaped, stretched and interpreted by an organ which defines its own unique reality and not one in which any two people can agree on.
Take the "parting of the mountain by a god" example. I can evaluate the situation as such:
What are the odds that some alien creature (That evolved in our universe) is just fucking with my brain and claiming to be something that it is not by using an understanding of our culture, my own mind and advanced technology? Very low, but possible.
What are the odds of me being nothing more than a computer simulation with someone behind the screen fucking with my sensory input? Pretty low, but still plausible just based on how far we have come in the last 150 years technology wise.
What are the odds of a single, sentient entity creating countless light years of ever expanding time and space (That happens to reside outside of the time and space that we think we know exists) and then traveling to Earth to prove to me that it exists? Way, way, way less plausible than something just fucking with me.
Even if an event defies everything we know to be true about the world in which inhabit, there are always more likely explanations than a god as described by holy books.
So, I guess I am a fundamentalist about my stance on the issue.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Burnout
Faith Puppeteer
noble savage
Member
What I would find interesting is (If you guys want to explain, that is) what it would take for you to move your number up or down? What events/arguments/whatever, in your minds, is enough to push it up or down? What led you to your position now?
Just to keep with the whole "Different minds perceive different realities" idea.
I may have been a little opaque in my last post, so I can explain it better if you are having trouble sorting through my bullshit.
Just to keep with the whole "Different minds perceive different realities" idea.
I may have been a little opaque in my last post, so I can explain it better if you are having trouble sorting through my bullshit.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Though I categorize myself as a 'believer', I am persuaded by logic. Thus, to increase or decrease my disposition on this topic would require concrete logical argument of a convincing manner. What has led to my view thus far? Personal experience + logical arguments and science/history of events known to me to this juncture. I do believe in supernatural forces, but explanation must be evident for faith to follow.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
WARNING! Religious debate has been known to cause varying degrees of vaginitis and butthurt! If you start to experience any butthurt, or notice that you're becoming a gigantic vagina upon having your beliefs challenged, please step away from the keyboard for a moment, take a deep breath and realize that none of this matters.
Thank you, and good day
Thank you, and good day
Burnout
Faith Puppeteer
WARNING! Religious debate has been known to cause varying degrees of vaginitis and butthurt! If you start to experience any butthurt, or notice that you're becoming a gigantic vagina upon having your beliefs challenged, please step away from the keyboard for a moment, take a deep breath and realize that none of this matters.
Thank you, and good day
11 days 'til my Montreal trip.
CantoX
Member
7/10 for me. I keep all my own spirituality to myself and try not to discuss it too much with others. I'm not fully religious, but believe in a lot of things and try to uphold many traditions and behaviors according to my religion. The main part of religion for me is that its a guide for life and how to live it happily and prosperously.
@ noble savage
For me, it goes up the more I learn about science, earth, the stars, the planets, and the universe. It just seems that everything has been made so perfect for us.. its just really really amazing if you sit down and think about it. This univerise, of which seems so perfect for us, can't just have "happened." Many great scientists also believe this as well.
@ noble savage
For me, it goes up the more I learn about science, earth, the stars, the planets, and the universe. It just seems that everything has been made so perfect for us.. its just really really amazing if you sit down and think about it. This univerise, of which seems so perfect for us, can't just have "happened." Many great scientists also believe this as well.
hexwind
Creepiness Och Terrorism
Correct, I know what do you mean man.. some societies are fucked up just because of religious dogmatism or wrong ways of interpreting their religious books and the like. I'm definitely against religious people who teach their kids religion literally without any reasonable arguments at least. but well.. I can't judge them.
Didn't get the pointWhat do you get when you cross a Jehovah's witness with a punk rocker?
Someone who knocks on your door and tells you to fuck off.
I simply see if science, logic, and my own experience of life can prove whether my theological beliefs are correct or not considering what the human being couldn't reveal and what I haven't experience so far.
Iced Dog
The Stormrider's Pooch
Agreed. While I have a strong dislike for most organized religion and don't subscribe to any myself, I also have a strong belief that there is a God/Creator.
ABQShredHead
©1970
I grew up a Catholic against my will. Nothing was really shoved down my throat though - I just had to go to church every weekend with my mom. I had bad experiences with very religious people during Sunday school classes that left a hugely bad taste in my mouth. Couple that with the televangelists coming out on TV during the '80's and their attack on people who made the music I liked to listen to very much turned me away from religion. I even had huge arguments with my friends about God. I was a science major (Electrical Engineering), afterall, and wasn't I supposed to believe in science rather than God?
Then I met my wife, and she brought me back to my senses. I would put myself at an 8/10 on the scale these days. Much has happened between my college days and now to have opened my eyes to something beyond what the science folks were preaching. And, yes, that is a religion, even moreso than the Christianity I now follow.
I can't quite buy into the formerly stated opinions that atheists are reasonable and non-argumentative; quite the contrary, every time I come across such an individual they try their damnedest (pun intended?) to prove Christians wrong and they get very heated and confrontational about their topics, leading to Zach's aforementioned butthurt.
My wife's uncle (by marriage) is a good example. He's actually a laid-back guy but puts all his faith in science and man. He was formerly a plumber by trade, but to my knowledge does not have a scientific education. He's not at all confrontation, but he constantly tried to belittle my wife (girlfriend at the time here) and make her feel inferior to his beliefs and intelligence. Then I was introduced to the family during a Thanksgiving celebration. I kept completely to myself and merely watched the uncle operate and saw what my wife had described. My next time around the family was for Christmas, and again I saw the ribbing and wordplay from the uncle. Since I was now around the family more often, they were more interested in me and what I did. My wife told them I was an engineer with an Electrical Engineering degree. The uncle's eyes got wide as saucers, and from that day (now over 10 years ago, mind you) the uncle has never made a single wise-crack or even comment about God and Christianity. And I have never said a word to him one way or the other about my beliefs to him.
A good movie to watch by all would be eXpelled with Ben Stein.
Then I met my wife, and she brought me back to my senses. I would put myself at an 8/10 on the scale these days. Much has happened between my college days and now to have opened my eyes to something beyond what the science folks were preaching. And, yes, that is a religion, even moreso than the Christianity I now follow.
I can't quite buy into the formerly stated opinions that atheists are reasonable and non-argumentative; quite the contrary, every time I come across such an individual they try their damnedest (pun intended?) to prove Christians wrong and they get very heated and confrontational about their topics, leading to Zach's aforementioned butthurt.
My wife's uncle (by marriage) is a good example. He's actually a laid-back guy but puts all his faith in science and man. He was formerly a plumber by trade, but to my knowledge does not have a scientific education. He's not at all confrontation, but he constantly tried to belittle my wife (girlfriend at the time here) and make her feel inferior to his beliefs and intelligence. Then I was introduced to the family during a Thanksgiving celebration. I kept completely to myself and merely watched the uncle operate and saw what my wife had described. My next time around the family was for Christmas, and again I saw the ribbing and wordplay from the uncle. Since I was now around the family more often, they were more interested in me and what I did. My wife told them I was an engineer with an Electrical Engineering degree. The uncle's eyes got wide as saucers, and from that day (now over 10 years ago, mind you) the uncle has never made a single wise-crack or even comment about God and Christianity. And I have never said a word to him one way or the other about my beliefs to him.
A good movie to watch by all would be eXpelled with Ben Stein.
noble savage
Member
Well, atheists are fucking assholes - just like every other group of people on this planet. You can nitpick attitude and disposition from a single guy and people on this board all you want, but that doesn't add any substance or momentum to your argument.
The question that should (I think) be answered is:
What about the laws of nature (As somebody who understands science) allows a person to logically conclude that a certain deity described in a certain holy book created the universe? Why couldn't it actually have been Vishnu that did it? Or why couldn't it have been a freak chance of nature? Or an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, all powerful, green gerbil that lives up my ass, for that matter?
Like I said before, if I was walking down the sidewalk and a figure claiming to be the creator of the universe ripped a mountain in half and commanded me to believe he said who he was, I wouldn't buy into it because there is a greater probability that my mind is not functioning and I am not seeing the evidence as it exists. How would you react if something like this happened to you? Would you convert to the religion that it commands, or would you try and find another explanation? Would this be enough to sway you one way or another in terms of your 8/10?
The question that should (I think) be answered is:
What about the laws of nature (As somebody who understands science) allows a person to logically conclude that a certain deity described in a certain holy book created the universe? Why couldn't it actually have been Vishnu that did it? Or why couldn't it have been a freak chance of nature? Or an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, all powerful, green gerbil that lives up my ass, for that matter?
Like I said before, if I was walking down the sidewalk and a figure claiming to be the creator of the universe ripped a mountain in half and commanded me to believe he said who he was, I wouldn't buy into it because there is a greater probability that my mind is not functioning and I am not seeing the evidence as it exists. How would you react if something like this happened to you? Would you convert to the religion that it commands, or would you try and find another explanation? Would this be enough to sway you one way or another in terms of your 8/10?
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