Overpopulation

[Demiurge]

It's a personal matter, you see. One might not be able to improve his quality of life enough to make it worth his while, not yours.

 

[Kenneth R.]

and i demand that they try to improve themselves. if life is not worth their while then their "while" is the first order of improvement

 

[Demiurge]

and i demand that they try to improve themselves. if life is not worth their while then their "while" is the first order of improvement

Nope, as I said, it's a highly personal decision. Maybe you're too lenient on life; willing to suffer needlessly and deceive yourself that it's worth it. This is not a subject given to absolutes. It's how the person wants to control his being, his perspective on it and such.

 

[speed]

Why is death so negative to you SS? You are afraid of it; afraid of what death really is. Why else would you be so jealous of suicide: you are afraid suicide might be right; suicide may actually end suffering and return one to sweet nothingness. This taker of ones life may actually be rewarded with not eternal damnation and suffering, but what they wanted: peace.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Why is death so negative to you SS? You are afraid of it; afraid of what death really is. Why else would you be so jealous of suicide: you are afraid suicide might be right; suicide may actually end suffering and return one to sweet nothingness. This taker of ones life may actually be rewarded with not eternal damnation and suffering, but what they wanted: peace.

maybe you weren't reading when i said that death should not be feared nor viewed as negative. jealousy is a sin, therefore i would be inclined to avoid such sentiments. you patronize me, and do so with a false representation of my already-stated positions.

there is peace in life as there is peace in death. some people refuse to seek it.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Nope, as I said, it's a highly personal decision. Maybe you're too lenient on life; willing to suffer needlessly and deceive yourself that it's worth it. This is not a subject given to absolutes. It's how the person wants to control his being, his perspective on it and such.

no one should suffer needlessly. instead of decieving themselves with the weight of their problems and crushing themselves from within, they should try solving those problems. if they cannot handle the trials and difficulties of life, they need help, not death.

 

[Demiurge]

no one should suffer needlessly. instead of decieving themselves with the weight of their problems and crushing themselves from within, they should try solving those problems. if they cannot handle the trials and difficulties of life, they need help, not death.

Don't you realize that you are imposing your beliefs about what a life worth living is onto the being of another? I tried to show this by doing the same to you in my last post.

You say you're not afraid; this doesn't mean you're not. Maybe, you've been indoctrinated by your faith. Whatever it is, I disagree with your position and find it egotistical. For some reason, you think you've got special insight into the matter. You've yet to demonstrate that this issue is anything but a personal decision. Also, stop protecting yourself by claiming those who disagree are in need of "help." As if you're not. Apparently, you never realized that the world does not revolve around you.

 

[Kenneth R.]

what makes you think i am egotistical? i suppose caring for the lives of others is egotistical and self centric then.

 

[Demiurge]

what makes you think i am egotistical? i suppose caring for the lives of others is egotistical and self centric then.

No, it's that you think your perspective on what sort of life is worth living should be adhered to by the rest of us.

 

[Majesty]

Human being is a different kind, hence, suicide is possible. Above or below doesn't make any difference to me. Humans aren't slaves to biological urges like others. I can abstain from sex for philosophical reasons, kill myself, etc.

The power of repressing natural instincts is what is wrong with humans in the first place.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I personally think that only a weak/unimaginative person could ever be so lacking in pleasure to consider their existence worthless enough to be ended. I've always had a knack for finding enjoyment in life regardless of how poor my situation is from a typical perspective. Maybe I'm just inexperienced.

However, if my existence were to become joyless and that joylessness couldn't be conquered in my eyes I wouldn't hesitate to kill myself.

 

[no country for old wainds]

The power of repressing natural instincts is what is wrong with humans in the first place.

We unavoidably have that power, what needs focusing on is how said power should (and perhaps more importantly, shouldn't) be used.

 

[Demiurge]

The power of repressing natural instincts is what is wrong with humans in the first place.

Self-control is a key trait.

 

[WarHammer]

Suicide is an exercise in misinformation for those who consider themselves trampled upon by circumstance. It is an act of supposedly leaving pain for an unknown future that may in itself contain more. They walk blindly into a situation because they think they have a strong enough grasp on what's going on that they can simply end it. We all think we have nothing to lose, but the fact is you can't possibly think of all the things you do. I agree with a post earlier, what of those you leave behind? Are we so selfish as to think our pain ranks higher above others who hold on and stay while we choose an easy way out?

People in thrid world countries aren't praying for death, they're praying for others to help them have a better life. Their courage lies in not committing suicide, but waiting with faith, hoping life will get better. It is not strong in any way to end life, it may not be weak but it isn't strong. There are too many unknowns to simply end what you can't even fully understand. It may have pain, but life holds mysteries and unknowns that I myself am always curious to explore and fully realize. It pains me to hear people say that suicide is the best option for some people, and the argument that I simply don't know the situation or can't be in their shoes is irrelevant. I am proof that it can get better, it isn't as hopeless as we convince ourselves it is.

I shun no one, I talk to anyone who needs it, but I can never forgive the act of taking your own life. Obviously it has been mentioned the act of taking vegetables off of life support, but that is not living. If you rely completely on a machine to breathe, you are dead. Suicide is not a way out, it's a quick reprieve for you while those you leave behind are forced to grieve and ask themselves why. If it's intelligence to be argued, would it be wise to go into darkness without full knowledge of what lurks in the shadows? I would think not.

 

[Kenneth R.]

No, it's that you think your perspective on what sort of life is worth living should be adhered to by the rest of us.

how could i not believe that all should value life if i respect it? to think otherwise is contradiction...

edit: i also agree with the above post.

 

[Demiurge]

Suicide is an exercise in misinformation for those who consider themselves trampled upon by circumstance. It is an act of supposedly leaving pain for an unknown future that may in itself contain more. They walk blindly into a situation because they think they have a strong enough grasp on what's going on that they can simply end it. We all think we have nothing to lose, but the fact is you can't possibly think of all the things you do. I agree with a post earlier, what of those you leave behind? Are we so selfish as to think our pain ranks higher above others who hold on and stay while we choose an easy way out?

There may very well be no one. Additionally, they might feel relieved when you die. It depends of the situation...



People in thrid world countries aren't praying for death, they're praying for others to help them have a better life. Their courage lies in not committing suicide, but waiting with faith, hoping life will get better. It is not strong in any way to end life, it may not be weak but it isn't strong. There are too many unknowns to simply end what you can't even fully understand. It may have pain, but life holds mysteries and unknowns that I myself am always curious to explore and fully realize. It pains me to hear people say that suicide is the best option for some people, and the argument that I simply don't know the situation or can't be in their shoes is irrelevant. I am proof that it can get better, it isn't as hopeless as we convince ourselves it is.

No, it's more hopeless. Don't be stupid, you haven't experienced every possible misery.

I shun no one, I talk to anyone who needs it, but I can never forgive the act of taking your own life. Obviously it has been mentioned the act of taking vegetables off of life support, but that is not living. If you rely completely on a machine to breathe, you are dead. Suicide is not a way out, it's a quick reprieve for you while those you leave behind are forced to grieve and ask themselves why. If it's intelligence to be argued, would it be wise to go into darkness without full knowledge of what lurks in the shadows? I would think not.

I talked about who is left behind earlier.

Yes, it is wise. I don't believe that a bitter God lurks beyond the grave to seek retribution for my petty foibles. It's easy to envision a situation in which I would be willing to take the chance that I am mistaken to escape certain misery.

Yet another guy who presents personal experience as if it's mine or another's. Just clueless. You're not an individual, you can't be understood outside of your context. Remember that when you try to push your opinion as an absolute ideal.

Silent Song, you want others to change their idea of what life worth living is, so theirs is more like your own. My point is that I could just as well say you ought to change yours so it's more like mine. This would demonstrate a failure to grasp the issue, though.

 

[Kenneth R.]

is not personal experience the most compelling experience? whence comes experience if not from some person? and experience leads to opinion, opinion to ideal. my experience and those i have known from others lead me to this point. i cannot betray what to me is so obvious. if i am led to this, to not try and correct the problem would be a failure on my part. i am not trying to change others opinions of what a life worth living is, i am trying to compel others to value their lives and seek a higher quality of life as priorty over longevity. death is a natural course. i do not think it is to be feared, but it should be respected and not sought prematurely. to commit suicide is to end the war in surrender when the outcome of battle is not decided.

 

[Demiurge]

is not personal experience the most compelling experience? whence comes experience if not from some person? and experience leads to opinion, opinion to ideal. my experience and those i have known from others lead me to this point.

Personal experience is just that. When you think it can be applied absolutely to situations you haven't experienced, you falter.

There isn't necessarily an ideal. In this case, I am obviously arguing that there isn't one. There are only perspectives and situations. Whether one chooses to die or not is a decision based on these.

i cannot betray what to me is so obvious. if i am led to this, to not try and correct the problem would be a failure on my part. i am not trying to change others opinions of what a life worth living is, i am trying to compel others to value their lives and seek a higher quality of life as priorty over longevity. death is a natural course. i do not think it is to be feared, but it should be respected and not sought prematurely. to commit suicide is to end the war in surrender when the outcome of battle is not decided.

I, too, am telling them to change their lives for the better. However, when they reach the point at which they cannot improve their lives enough to make them worth living, they can choose death. I'm repeating myself for what seems like the millionth time. Soon, I'll have to start thinking of ways of rewording my position to make it less obvious, since you seem intent upon leading us in circles.

What sort of war? The war against death that will inevitably be lost? the outcome is determined. Perhaps, you're waging a battle. I see no reason to.

Line of text(message too short because it was contained in quotes).

 

[Kenneth R.]

i have stated many times death is an inevitability, but it should not be sought out. when people reach a point that they can no longer improve their lives, death will come to them. until they reach that point, no surrender should be given.

 

[speed]

Yet another guy who presents personal experience as if it's mine or another's. Just clueless. You're not an individual, you can't be understood outside of your context. Remember that when you try to push your opinion as an absolute ideal.

Silent Song, you want others to change their idea of what life worth living is, so theirs is more like your own. My point is that I could just as well say you ought to change yours so it's more like mine. This would demonstrate a failure to grasp the issue, though.

Demiurge, this is exactly why I like Silent Song so much. He represents every religious, mystic person. He searches for the absolute which is God; since everyone has created their own absolute or God, they believe they have found God. Now of course when Silent Song takes the next step and decides God is beneath him, or discovers the true nature of God--absolute nothingness--then perhaps he will turn into a anarchist, a philosopher, or a hedonistic libertine. I'm trying for a trifecta.

Im not attacking you or anything SS, I actually always find your comments refreshing, especially since your absolutes seem immune even from the criticism of Diogenes.