The Fiddler
Just Do It.
No arguement there. But cutting expenses is usually the quickest and easiest way to try to balance the budget, and you don't need a business degree to figure out how to do it.
P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO
- Thread starter MEGALOUD
- Start date
No arguement there. But cutting expenses is usually the quickest and easiest way to try to balance the budget, and you don't need a business degree to figure out how to do it.
Mynock
French Toast
Oh yeah sure I'm gonna be sold on a band after hearing a 30seconds sample from myspace or the band's site*. riiiiiight.
full-length promo CDs ? good for you if you get them in the mail, I don't. Maybe I should email Century Media and Nuclear Blast and ask for those.
label sampler CD, while better than a 30seconds sample, that's still just one song.
forums, word-of-mouth and reviews, well while it is interresting to hear other people's opinions, oddly, I somehow like to form my own opinion, and that requires hearing the thing.
* which some do have full length, then see the CD sampler thing
PS edit : note that it can go both ways, loving a sample or sample song, and hating an album, or not liking a sample and loving the album when hearing it.
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
Yeah, I can see arguing right versus wrong isn't getting anywhere. People either accept what's illegal and abide by it, or they don't.
It really does come down to the worth of intellectual property -- which is an interesting coincidence that we're having this, ahem, discussion considering the writers strike now underway in Hollywood about, essentially, the same topic. Writers want to be compensated for their intellectual property.
Fiddler is correct in his argument that until $0 = $15 this situation isn't going to be resolved. People either respect the intellectual property of artists, or they don't. Those who think music is a commodity not unlike toilet paper will seek out the cheapest way to obtain it, even if that means stealing it.
I'd love to read some viable, constructive ideas about how (a) fans can "sample" or "test" music without downloading it illegally, while (b) making sure laws are observed and artists are duly compensated for their work.
I, frankly, don't buy the argument that what Amazon provides (10-15 seconds of songs) or iTunes (tracks for just 99 cents apiece), or MySpace (sometimes entire songs) isn't enough to go by in deciding to like or dislike an artist's work. There are ample sources out there for legal downloads and samples on the Internet. No one here can tell me there isn't. I think that excuse is a cop-out, a very thinly veiled attempt to justify downloading an entire album illegally.
I guess this issue is simply going to come down to one's own ethics and morals. Sorry if you don't like those terms. But that's the bottom line here. If you think illegal downloads are stealing, you won't do it. If you think illegal downloads are okey-dokey, you will.
Personally, I don't care what someone does with his/her free time. You can be as law-abiding or law-breaking as you wanna be. I just don't want to see the music industry adversely affected to the point where it's even harder for bands, labels, or distributors to make it. When your illegal downloading affects me, that's where I draw the line.
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
You are one cynical dude, Neil. That's just about as cutthroat a statement as I've ever read.
You're mixing up two very important points, however:
1. The current plethora of bands doesn't mean they're making any money, and
2. The downfall of the music industry is happening as we type these words. It's changing dramatically day by day.
I'd love to know what your profession or trade is and how much job security you have, or think you have. How would you like it if someone told you to grin and bear it if your job were to evaporate because of changes in the marketplace?
Man, what happened to you to cause you to become so cavalier about the lives -- and professions -- of others?
The Fiddler
Just Do It.
Exactly! The record company recoupes all of it's expenses it spent on the band before the company will release a single penny from royalties to the band. It can take a couple of years before the label recoups all it's expenses and anyone in the band sees a dime from the royalties. So, just how many underground bands out there manage to boose it up at the most expesive studio with the plushest carpets, release after release? How long will an independent label take the risk allow that to happen? One release I'm guessing, before the label terminates their contract. And I'm also guessing that successful labels also have a good sense for evaluating an individual's fiscal talent as well as musical talent, and are going to veer away from a potential group of misfits who offer no guarantee of selling enough CDs for the label to break even (recover it's advances). Those who are most fit survive, those that aren't perish quickly when the bottom line is $.
eaeolian
Division Guitarist
How about making the voice-over (or edited, CircleIICircle/AFM style) promos freely available for download as 192K mp3s? Instead of the writer's cabal (and I can say that because I've been one) getting to make the decision what's good. In other words, invert the current system. Couple that with an expiring license (easily subverted, but does it matter with voice-overs/edits?) and you might have a system that will work.
Of course, mid-quality streaming is an interesting idea with issues, too.
I don't, and I buy everything I like and delete everything else. I've been burned too many times by 15 second clips of a nice chorus hook in a badly written or arranged song. I'm one of the artists, I know all the marketing tricks.
As it already does. I'm comfortable in my decision - I have roughly 75 CDs I wouldn't have bought simply off of clips in my collection, and the only things I have as mp3s/burns are out-of-print items that I replace when they come back in print. However, I am more moral than most, so I understand that my system won't work generally. However, some form of full-disc preview without resorting to draconian attempts at DRM would do nicely for me.
woosta
Member
The bottom line for is: Stream it if you don't want it downloaded as easily and then offer it for sale. The problem there is that I don't think too many artists would want their material heard prior to purchasing it or they'd be in the same boat with few purchases. Product is just not up to snuff 9 times out of 10. There aren't that many "Hysterias" or "Whitesnake 87s" out there. Most of the time it seems to be that if I get 3 good songs, I'm happy. That's sad. That's why the pain more than any reason I believe.
The Fiddler
Just Do It.
The Iced Earth MySpace page has 4 full-length songs streaming on it's website, not unlike thousands of other bands. That's 20 minutes of music, not 2 minutes. So, you still need more minutes to make a gut decision as to whether you like the music or not? And I've forgotten to add all the videos posted (legally and illegally) on YouTube. And you still need to hear more to make up your mind?
The point your really making is that like what you hear, but you don't like it enough to pay $15 for it, so you just download it for free and be done with it.
eaeolian
Division Guitarist
I've seen absolutely no evidence that, other than a few exceptions, the music industry has learned a single thing about this.
Mynock
French Toast
And I frankly don't buy that you can from 15seconds. If you really can, I'm starting a cult that worships you right now.
Mynock
French Toast
My 500 albums on shelves beg to differ. I am more than willing to pay for music I like, and I do.
Well every sample on the Nightmare myspace pages (10 songs from 10 different releases) are full length, you can here typically 2 full length songs in the nightmare store. You can hear 2 minute samples of EVERY SONG per album on CDBABY and AMAZON or 30 seconds of each track on itunes, were you not aware of these options?
metalprof
Ken Luther
Trying to follow this thread is like walking into a crowded room where everyone is yelling at each other, and trying to follow what's being said
So I'll just sneak in here, whisper something, then leave again.
My idea is to adapt the sponsorship system to labels .
I notice that a good portion of CDs I listen to are from Nuclear Blast. I also like many CDs from Ken's Sensory / Laser's Edge label and Lance's Nightmare Label. Right now, I do not download anything, I just buy stuff. But suppose I decided to go the download route, but wanted to still make sure to support my favorite labels....
So, why don't labels sell memberships to the label? For a low level membership fee, you're entitled to X number of downloads from that label per year, where X can vary by price. A Gold Membership can be more expensive, say, oh, $200 per year, and allows unlimited downloads of all recordings on that label. Labels could have reciprocity agreements so that a membership in one gets free or reduced price downloads from another. Bands still have incentive to hook up with a label for their marketing engines and to be included in the download pools. Members in, say, Nuclear Blast could get reduced ticket prices for concerts involving NB bands. You'd have an extra line to put in your sig. Instead of "Street Team Member" you could display that you're a "Sponsor of The End Records" or something. There could be lots of other perks.
There, that's my idea. Carry on.
Ken
So I'll just sneak in here, whisper something, then leave again.
My idea is to adapt the sponsorship system to labels .
I notice that a good portion of CDs I listen to are from Nuclear Blast. I also like many CDs from Ken's Sensory / Laser's Edge label and Lance's Nightmare Label. Right now, I do not download anything, I just buy stuff. But suppose I decided to go the download route, but wanted to still make sure to support my favorite labels....
So, why don't labels sell memberships to the label? For a low level membership fee, you're entitled to X number of downloads from that label per year, where X can vary by price. A Gold Membership can be more expensive, say, oh, $200 per year, and allows unlimited downloads of all recordings on that label. Labels could have reciprocity agreements so that a membership in one gets free or reduced price downloads from another. Bands still have incentive to hook up with a label for their marketing engines and to be included in the download pools. Members in, say, Nuclear Blast could get reduced ticket prices for concerts involving NB bands. You'd have an extra line to put in your sig. Instead of "Street Team Member" you could display that you're a "Sponsor of The End Records" or something. There could be lots of other perks.
There, that's my idea. Carry on.
Ken
freakchylde
PPUSA Driver o' Doom!!!!!
I'm sorry, but 30 seconds of songs on iTunes is the main reason I never purchase a song on there that I haven't heard all the way through. I've ended up purchasing the wrong versions of songs (mainly by Prince), due to the fact that it's the intro of the song you hear, not the flesh. Not nearly enough to judge a song, even by Britney Spears.
skyrefuge
Member
Thanks for noticing! I don't find anything particularly "cutthroat" about that post though...
I agree. I wasn't saying that they were. In fact, my point relies on the assumption that most are not making any money. To review, my point was that in the absence of monetary compensation, plenty of bands will still continue to record and release music, so from a music fan's perspective, there isn't much to worry about. Unless you're involved in the industry, you don't have to fear that the illegal downloading done by others will ever have any effect on you.
That may be true, but I've been hearing that for eight years now, so forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical that the fall is imminent. The only "dramatic change" I've seen as a consumer is that the market continues to be flooded by and ever-greater number of releases. I don't know, maybe the music industry is like a dying star or something? It's bloating out to red-giant stage before a sudden collapse into a neutron star?
I have extremely little job security. My job could be moved to India at the drop of a hat, and sometimes I'm surprised that it hasn't been yet. So no, nothing has "happened to me". I'm simply good at seeing situations for what they are, and knowing when it might make sense to fight and when it makes sense to just accept it. Obviously I wouldn't throw a party if my job disappeared, but I'm at least mentally prepared for it. I'd have to find something else to do, but I'm sure I'd survive somehow. And since I probably make a lot more money than most musicians, if I can survive a career change, they can too.
Neil
skyrefuge
Member
You're in the ballpark of something that's being tried recently, though only on a band level. The Who now have a $50 subscription plan that gives you access to a bunch of stuff. I can't say I really see the point though, particularly in a scheme that's competing with free illegal downloads. People who have no moral compunctions will still just go with the free version. You're on the right track with any sort of subscription idea though, since labels are in love with that concept (again, it guarantees a steady revenue stream).
Neil
skyrefuge
Member
Ok, and to be positive, here's my unworkable scheme: all music should be paid for on a pay-per-listen basis.
Isn't that really the most equitable scheme for everyone? You pay for however much you "use"; the bands that you listen to the most get paid the most money. Bands/labels will no longer be able to use a sample or hit single to "trick" you into paying a lot of money to buy an album of stuff you don't really like, but everyone still gets paid exactly what they deserve.
I'm not sure what the exact pricing would look like, but generally it would center around low per-listen price, with a cap. So maybe each album listen would cost $1, with a cap of $10. So once you listen to it ten times, you truly "own" it, and all subsequent listens are free. If you don't like it after that first listen, well, you only paid $1, which isn't too bad for 50 minutes of mediocre entertainment. Or, if $1 sounds like too much for that first "sample" listen, maybe the first listen is $0.10, or even free, with the price increasing for each additional listen, until the cap was reached.
Of course, the only problem with this scheme is that it's completely unworkable in reality. Its very nature requires some form of Digital Rights Management (which consumers have pretty clearly rejected), or some sort of all-knowing Listen Monitoring Software. So it will never happen, but I think if the music industry was invented today, the purchasing side would take a form something like this.
Neil
Isn't that really the most equitable scheme for everyone? You pay for however much you "use"; the bands that you listen to the most get paid the most money. Bands/labels will no longer be able to use a sample or hit single to "trick" you into paying a lot of money to buy an album of stuff you don't really like, but everyone still gets paid exactly what they deserve.
I'm not sure what the exact pricing would look like, but generally it would center around low per-listen price, with a cap. So maybe each album listen would cost $1, with a cap of $10. So once you listen to it ten times, you truly "own" it, and all subsequent listens are free. If you don't like it after that first listen, well, you only paid $1, which isn't too bad for 50 minutes of mediocre entertainment. Or, if $1 sounds like too much for that first "sample" listen, maybe the first listen is $0.10, or even free, with the price increasing for each additional listen, until the cap was reached.
Of course, the only problem with this scheme is that it's completely unworkable in reality. Its very nature requires some form of Digital Rights Management (which consumers have pretty clearly rejected), or some sort of all-knowing Listen Monitoring Software. So it will never happen, but I think if the music industry was invented today, the purchasing side would take a form something like this.
Neil
rms
Active Member
Since when am I justying my illegal downloading? Have I said it once thats it no illegal etc?
SeaStorm
Member
For everyone bemoaning the inability to learn enough from 30 second samples, I just wanted to highlight what Lance said here. 2 minutes of every song!!! Assuming about 4 minute songs, that's 50% of every song and 50% of the entire album. Now add in that you can get 4 full songs on myspace. On a 12 song album, that's 4 full songs and 8 half songs. No one can argue that's not enough to base a buying decision on.
Now I have no idea what percentage of bands use CD Baby, but the point is that myspace is not the only place bands make music available to listen to. I did a quick search and found a lot of Lance's Nightmare bands on there, so you definitely have no "try before you buy" argument to be illegally downloading Lance's stuff.
PurpleCrayonWriter
Just a Kid at Heart
I was wrong about the number of seconds on Amazon. As Lance and others have pointed out, it's up to a minute or two. But that's not my only source. I'll buy a track from iTunes to see if I like it. Or Amazon's new digital download section, which is growing steadily. A couple of weeks ago, I bought a download of the Beach Boys Endless Summer album from Amazon because it was only $7.99. The album was out of print and at least that much from Marketplace sellers. So, because there are no lyrics or artwork to speak of, I bought it as a download. (I used to listen to it when I was a kid back in the early to mid 70s and I had a hankerin' to hear the Beach Boys. Sue me.)
But lots of people have nailed it: There is ample opportunity to hear a lot of an album before you buy it -- from iTunes, from Amazon, from CDBaby, from MySpace, from friends.
So maybe you can't decide in a couple of minutes. Search out the band on MySpace. Or their record label's page. Or iTunes. I'm willing to bet you'll be able to hear 25% of an album by that point in time. If you still don't know if you like it or not, I think two conclusions could be drawn: (1) You don't like it, so you shouldn't buy it, or (2) You haven't a clue how to judge what you like or not.
Me? I listen for vocalists (their tone, power, how they're recorded) and guitarists (again, their tone, their riffs, how the music is recorded). I can tell in a song or two if I like the band. How? Three decades of experience with music, and knowing who I am and what I like. It's that simple. I do it all the time with my MySpace page. I get Friend requests daily from bands around the world. I click through to their page and listen. If I like what i hear -- based on just a few seconds of listening, or looking at who their friends are -- I approve the friend request. It's that easy. No degree in physics is required. No advanced training in psychology. I know what i like.
That holds true when I buy CDs. Believe it or not, I sometimes buy based on the cover art alone. No need to hear the music first. I dig the artwork because I respect the artist (Mattias Noren, for example. Or Travis Smith. Both are brilliant). When the CD arrives, I'm often blown away by the music.
Sometimes, I buy based on what Ken Golden has written in his album descriptions. I trust Ken's taste in music. Ditto for Lance. If it's on Lance's label, I know it's good. So I buy based on who recommends the music. I trust Lance. I trust Ken. Neither has steered me wrong over the years. Not once.
Sometimes, I buy based on what I know about the band's label. I know what stuff sounds like on Century Media. I know what stuff sounds like on Nuclear Blast. I know what stuff sounds like on SPV. Or InsideOut. Or Sensory. Or Nightmare.
Sometimes, I buy based on reviews in magazines I trust: Classic Rock. Mojo. Uncut. BWBK.
Sometimes, I buy based on a freakin' whim. I think, "I'd love to hear some new music. Why don't I try..." And, with a dash of this and a pinch of that -- taken from the above Murph's Fool-Proof Steps To Buying an Album -- I make a purchase.
I did that this fall when Glenn announced the bands for next year. I bought every album from every band I didn't already have in my collection. Sight and sound largely unseen. Why? Because I trust Glenn's taste in music. I know he wouldn't recommend shit for ProgPower USA.
So I guess what I'm saying is that given who I am, what I know, who I know, and what I like, I see ample opportunity to hear as much of a band's music before I buy it as I could possibly need. Even then, I don't always feel the need to listen first. I often like to buy based on trust and then feel pleasantly surprised later on.
NOTE: I apologize for being too passionate about this subject. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. I'll just bow out of this thread and let cooler and wiser heads prevail.
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