P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

[lunar]

isn't this country against monopolies? haven't we attacked those that
seemingly got too much, BELL TELEPHONE, BILL GATES, and the list goes on, yet Clinton, decentralized the legislation on media companies...why? So they could create monopolies and force feed us processed cheese for music and
other forms of entertainment, and news on they massive networks?

Anyway, I'm all about the indie artist and musician, I am one, I'm trying to continue to be one, and also do my best to support those that are out there, so please again, if you have those brilliant brainstorms, keep them coming!

America is all about the land of opportunity, opportunity to find any means necessary to make a buck at anyone's and any thing's (such as the environment) expense. There are plenty of monopolies here, they are just hidden, disguised in other ways, like the RIAA who has brainwashed everyone into the whole "OMG downloading music is bad!". They control the radio stations and tell them which bands to play, and they are also the ones trying to stop internet radio stations who DONT play the RIAA's bands that they push . They manufacture plastic pop bands, force the media to play them, and then cash in on it while crushing the independent scene. I say that downloading independent music helps the indie bands as a form of getting their music out in the open to a wider audience since these bands will never make it to the Radio or MTV unless they sign a blood contract with the RIAA some how. When people get familiar with the indie band's songs, and if they like it, then they will want to see them live, buy shirts, which is where bands really get most of their money from anyway, not from CD's which they earn maybe like 10% or less from each CD sold. Fuck the RIAA.

Now, back to brain storming with synergy Like I've been saying, I think its all about touring. How many times have a heard a band on an Mp3 and thought, eh,m their ok. But then when I experienced them live I was like HOLY SHIT THEY FUCKING ROCK!! Touring is the best way to get a fan base IMHO, not to mention to push your merchandise. Speaking of, there is this band called the Danielson (Aka the Danielson Family) who's front man goes up on stage and does an act where he is a sales man and tries to sell stuff to the audience, really weird stuff that he made and came up with. All these strange items are really for sell with the shirts area, and just add's to the profit. Its a gimmick to the show like say, chopping of a goats head for Mayhem, but its a profitable one at that. Bands can start coming up with new innovative ways to sell different kinds of merchandise not normally sold at shows. What ever happened to posters? I never see those sold at shows. Wall scrolls, comic books about the band ( a few have done this before), or just come up with weird crap like a weird transforming eyeball that turns into a cross that has the bands name on it. Do you know how many people would be like "Omg, its so weird! I gotta have it!" Be creative!

Next there is the whole recording thing. Do you know how many people out there have the knowledge/thirst for knowledge on how to do propper recording for artist, but dont have the money to goto school to get a certificate or degree so they can get a job doing that?? And are METAL HEADS all at the same time? And who would LOVE to volunteer to help out bands and record their music!? If the community pulls together, gets fans to help out and volunteer, it could work. Not everyone is super money hungry bastards. Most people would be happy to know they helped a band they like with their music, not to mention to read their own names in the credits.

Finally, the last big issue I see is bands need loans to do just about everything, especially touring. Well there is advertisement...ha ha ha could you imagine getting up on stage and between every song talk to the audience about why bud lite is the better beer, how Charmans will keep your clothes snuggly soft, and Master Chief from Halo wants YOU to join the fight in the war against whatever their in the war against by buying an XBOX 360 and HAlo3??? :zombie: But foreals, there is always putting up your music online for free downloads, and asking for donations so that you may go on tour ok, that was a sucky suggestion but I cant think of everything!

Yea so I'm not claiming to have any answers to anything, those are just some brainstorming ideas of mine.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Trying to follow this thread is like walking into a crowded room where everyone is yelling at each other, and trying to follow what's being said

So I'll just sneak in here, whisper something, then leave again.

My idea is to adapt the sponsorship system to labels .

I notice that a good portion of CDs I listen to are from Nuclear Blast. I also like many CDs from Ken's Sensory / Laser's Edge label and Lance's Nightmare Label. Right now, I do not download anything, I just buy stuff. But suppose I decided to go the download route, but wanted to still make sure to support my favorite labels....

So, why don't labels sell memberships to the label? For a low level membership fee, you're entitled to X number of downloads from that label per year, where X can vary by price. A Gold Membership can be more expensive, say, oh, $200 per year, and allows unlimited downloads of all recordings on that label. Labels could have reciprocity agreements so that a membership in one gets free or reduced price downloads from another. Bands still have incentive to hook up with a label for their marketing engines and to be included in the download pools. Members in, say, Nuclear Blast could get reduced ticket prices for concerts involving NB bands. You'd have an extra line to put in your sig. Instead of "Street Team Member" you could display that you're a "Sponsor of The End Records" or something. There could be lots of other perks.

There, that's my idea. Carry on.

Ken

Thank you Ken for whispering a good idea...I like this one, I think it would and could work on some level, probably have a small true label supporter draw at first, or I may be wrong, it may do much better than that depending on how it's marketed, the more people are aware of an alternative, the more folks may choose to use that alternative. I'm going to talk to Deron about this one, since he is working on a new store for me at the moment, this may in fact be doable.

My label has experienced growth and continues to do so, I think mainly because daily I continue to watch trends and learn and try and adapt and use new media to the changing face of music and technology. I chose bands that I like and in doing so, find it much easier to get behind. But it's tough to keep up sometimes, and good to get others feedback. The Torrents are probably not going to every go away completely and even if they did, there would be another idea similar that would be incorporated shortly thereafter.
It is now expected by many that music should be free.

I respect those of you that use this as a sampling thing, and I doubt much that any of you will really listen to something more than once that you don't like it. However these days with media systems that are designed for mp3 rather than aiff files sizes, and the busy lives we all have, I doubt very highly that all will actually buy all the albums downloaded that you do enjoy, for possibly several reasons.

Labels, distribution companies, virtually all mom and pop stores have gone out of business because of the changing face of music. Why? Well there are probably several reasons, it not all about illegal downloads for sure. Online orders and pay downloads have had a big impact on the market as well.
Ebay and Amazon as well as every other .com out there selling music have eaten away at their business, those that cannot adapt in this world usually parish.

Simply put the downloads for Lion's albums on just "one torrent" I would guess actually match, or are higher than the amount Lion has actually sold for those titles. Sales out there are really quite meager these days for metal CD's. Those of us that support this genre are here because we love the music, not because we're making great profit.

There are benefits to both sides of this subject for sure, with the continuing growth of technology, distribution, manufacturing, and music creation.
Every aspect of this business things are becoming cheaper, even marketing on myspace is FREE depending on how much time you want to put into that. So there are elements that balance the scales in some ways. And artists are for sure more empowered on many levels to be able to help themselves in getting their music out there and gaining an audience than ever before if they are motivated, organized and creative.

The shear amount of music created each week from these changes, has risen dramatically (A LOT MORE MUSIC) and yes there are MANY more choices than 20 years ago for sure to weed through. Many more wonderful musical achievements and many more crappy recordings that really shouldn't be bothered with. But music is subjective as is art. So all will probably find some audience. The ones that shine above the rest, (if they can find enough presence that people will actually take notice of them in the crowd) will surely find a bigger audience than those of substandard recording and or ability, and those that have more of a mass appeal will surely find the largest audience.

The machine that is the media conglomerates out there like Clear Channel, Disney and others, have quite a system in play and are able to continue to market certain things in a mass way that guarantee a certain amount of success, however in creating these monopolies, they've taken one factor out of mainstream music.......creativity, it's become so processed and formulaic,
that I find it hard to listen to mainstream metal stations because half or possibly more of the songs played sound like the same band.

I appreciate everyone's input here both positive and negative, although I think it's gotten a bit too judgmental, thus is the nature of an open debate.
I would ask that anyone else that has any more ideas, please whisper them as well, idea's are a wonderful thing and show true creativity.

 

[rushzil2112]

Just sitting here and thinking about everything, it seems from all that I read most bands lose money from touring than anything in the United States. Therion says this will be the last tour because they aren't making any money, but I have never heard them complain about not having enough record sales. Take a band that never plays shows, like Shadow Gallery, from whom I own every disc they have put out, and I never hear bitching from them about not having enough record sales. I think they have it down perfect, record the music they want and release it and then just work other jobs and be with their families. I would love to just have a band write and record and that be it. They never play shows and they have a legendary status with me because I love their music and would love to see them live, but i am glad they just release quality cds. It seems too many of these bands need to blame downloading for lack in sales because their product just flat out sucks. All of these generic power metal releases, there are just too many goddamn bad ones I understand why they have so many downloads and not sales because people delete them because they just flatout suck.

All of my friends I burn discs for, if they like it they go out and buy it the next day or next time they get a paycheck. For one of my friends recently I burned him the new soilwork, new circus maximus, starbreaker, soul sirkus, planet x, on the virg, and within a week he had gone out and purchased them because he loved them. I will keep on repeating what i think, people will buy the quality releases and download(then most likely delete) the shitty releases, which is what I do.

 

[rushzil2112]

If people like the releases they downloaded, wouldn't you think they would go out and see them live. Bands that have decent record sales still aren't having people show up to their shows. makes you think doesn't it.

 

[The Fiddler]

And I frankly don't buy that you can from 15seconds. If you really can, I'm starting a cult that worships you right now.

The Iced Earth MySpace page has 4 full-length songs streaming on it's website, not unlike thousands of other bands. I should now, I put them there. I also rotate the songs. That's 20 minutes of complete music, not 2 minutes. Music videos for songs not on the MySpace player, also exist, in full length on the band's MySpace page. Then head over to YouTube and you can find even more legal (and illegal) videos of the band there, and lots of live footage (and it all adds up to over an hour). Still not sold? Then, head on over to SPV.de (linked to from the band's official website) and check out the band's page and you will find audio clips from all 19 new songs.

When the above is taken as a whole, not piece by piece, you have over one hour of audio (and lots of video) to make an informed decision. And of course, Iced Earth is not the only band that does this. Now go ahead and try to defend your argument that there are not enough free resources for you to decide on whether or not you like that band.

 

[Stingray11214]

The memberships idea is a good one. However, to truly make it work, you need to do more than just "$20 per year for "x" downloads". I would do what some artists do (Joe Satriani comes to mind) which is to give their members perks like no other. For example: a pre-pre-sale for the tour, Let's say Primo seats or VIP access for 10-20% off Ticketbitch, access to the exclusive vaults, etc. That would be the ultimate fan reward site. you want to know who your "true fans" are? This is the best way to find out the fans from the poseurs.

Peace,
Ray C.

 

[The Fiddler]

My 500 albums on shelves beg to differ. I am more than willing to pay for music I like, and I do.

Now tell me how many albums you have on your computer or mp3 player that you downloaded and DID NOT pay for. 0?

 

[The Fiddler]

Interesting thought. I guess I wouldn't be surprised though if, when push came to shove, the board listened to the war between the ISP division and the Music division, and said "Sorry Music, we'd rather take the steady, monthly $50 payments we get from our ISP subscribers who want to steal stuff than the small, unpredictable (or negative) profits we get from your music industry. You're done." Of course, a tax on broadband connections in exchange for legal file-sharing is frequently-floated proposal, so maybe such conglomerates could facilitate something like that. Another note is that the vast majority of music produced is not and will not be under the control of such conglomerates. Oh, and Bill Moyers hasn't had anything to do with NOW for years!

Neil

This just in, the war is already on...

"There has been a lot of fuss lately about Comcast’s efforts to throttle and interfere with BitTorrent traffic, but they are by no means the only ISP involved in such efforts. Hundreds of larger and smaller ISPs all around the world try to limit BitTorrent traffic on their networks, time to give an overview, the war is on".

http://torrentfreak.com/war-against-bittorrent-throttling-isps-071106/

"Last Month The Pirate Bay filed complaints against some of the key players in the entertainment industry for corrupting and sabotaging their BitTorrent tracker. The MPAA has now responded to these claims and deny that they worked with MediaDefender. Unfortunately for the MPAA, we have proof that they did."

http://torrentfreak.com/mediadefender-emails-disprove-mpaa-claims-071104/

And yes, Bill's show is now called, "Bill Moyer's Journal".

 

[KingsGene]

If people like the releases they downloaded, wouldn't you think they would go out and see them live. Bands that have decent record sales still aren't having people show up to their shows. makes you think doesn't it.

Just like the public thinks $15 is too high for a CD, they think that $30-50 is too much for a ticket. Or, can't go see a show because it's scheduled poorly (weeknight) or at a bar that does not allow all-ages.

But, if they do scrape up enough for the show, then they are given the opportunity to spend another $35 for a $7 t-shirt. Economics rule...

 

[KingsGene]

Hear are the numbers for the Radiohead release:
http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1883
It's incredible to me that even beeing able to pay whatever you want for it, 62% of people downloaded for free! LOL
not counting the downloads from other sources (which were reportedly higher than from the official site)... So, even being able to pay 2 bucks for the album, a olverwhelming majority of the people decided to steal it...

Or, an overwhelming majority thought it sucked and decided to pay what it was worth....$0.

 

[The Fiddler]

I'll say it again: there have been more than 1262 metal releases in 2007 so far. We are now seven or eight YEARS into the Napster era. That's how long word has been flying around that file-sharing will bring an end to the music industry as we know it. Not only has that doom failed to materialize, quite the opposite has happened: more music is being recorded and released than ever before.

What you're failing to mention is that the landscape in 2007 is much more different than it was in 1999 (Napster launch). And the word hasn't been that file sharing is going to bring the end to the music business, rather, "unchallenged FREE file-sharing" would bring and end to the industry as we know it. That's an important difference, isn't it?

Fortunately, the music industry sued Napster in 2000. Napster lost and went bankrupt. The Napster brand and logos were purchased by Roxio for name recognition and "Napster 2.0" is now a legal pay-for-download service, just like iTunes, and all the other similar outlets that sell copyrighted music legally and provide royalties to the musicians, in no doubt helping make 1262 metal releases in 2007 possible. Computer programs like SNOCAP on a band's MySpace page also enable a band to sell their music which helps pay for their independent releases.

Napster's actions in 1999 were illegal, and the music industry took action, and won. BitTorrents are a new technology, and again the music industry is taking action against those who use the technology to steal copyrighted music. Eight years from now, the landscape will change yet again. BitTorrents will have been beaten down by legal challenges, but there will be another form of piracy to take it's place. Hopefully, the legal pay-for-download services like iTunes will continue to thrive over the next eight years, allowing musicians to collect royalties from sales of their music, giving them reason to continue making music and not surrender their creative talents to office or factory jobs.

 

[MEGALOUD]

This just in, the war is already on...

"There has been a lot of fuss lately about Comcast’s efforts to throttle and interfere with BitTorrent traffic, but they are by no means the only ISP involved in such efforts. Hundreds of larger and smaller ISPs all around the world try to limit BitTorrent traffic on their networks, time to give an overview, the war is on".

http://torrentfreak.com/war-against-bittorrent-throttling-isps-071106/

"Last Month The Pirate Bay filed complaints against some of the key players in the entertainment industry for corrupting and sabotaging their BitTorrent tracker. The MPAA has now responded to these claims and deny that they worked with MediaDefender. Unfortunately for the MPAA, we have proof that they did."

http://torrentfreak.com/mediadefender-emails-disprove-mpaa-claims-071104/

And yes, Bill's show is now called, "Bill Moyer's Journal".

What I find very interesting is that *they call themselves*..."THE PIRATE BAY", hmmmm

 

[The Fiddler]

What I find very interesting is that *they call themselves*..."THE PIRATE BAY", hmmmm

Yeah, and they claim their rights are being legally violated, even though they willing aid and promote the illegal distribution of copyrighted material.

I'd love to see the title of any lawsuit brought against Comcast or RIAA for this one. Maybe it would be something like:

New York Circuit Court Case 53765XD: The Pirate Bay (Plantiff) vs Comcast (Defendent). The Pirate Bay seeks monetary damages from Comcast's sabotage (flooding the torrent with bogus movies) of The Pirate Bay's torrent. The judge and jury are instructed to never-mind that The Pirate Bay openly engages in copyright infringement.

 

[Greykiller]

I wouldn't pay two cents for an MP3 ripped at 128Kbps. As a matter of fact, if the first leak of a CD I'm interested in is at 128Kbps, I keep waiting. I don't even listen to it once. And I don't consider myself an audiophile.

Zod

Which brings me right back to my first suggestion.

Let's alter it: Let the music industry put ALL of the music from ALL artists out there at a barely tolerable bitrate. 96? Less? Enough so that we know what the song sounds like, but not good enough to really enjoy in the car, ipod or home.

Then we can try before we buy.

Downloading is not going away. In fact, the RIAA would be better off if they stopped wasting their time chasing this impossible dream of stopping people from getting free music. People were downloading before Napster, and will continue to do so no matter what actions the government or RIAA take.


You cannot unpop a balloon; the best you can do is figure out a way to survive going forward.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Which brings me right back to my first suggestion.

Let's alter it: Let the music industry put ALL of the music from ALL artists out there at a barely tolerable bitrate. 96? Less? Enough so that we know what the song sounds like, but not good enough to really enjoy in the car, ipod or home.

Then we can try before we buy.

Downloading is not going away. In fact, the RIAA would be better off if they stopped wasting their time chasing this impossible dream of stopping people from getting free music. People were downloading before Napster, and will continue to do so no matter what actions the government or RIAA take.


You cannot unpop a balloon; the best you can do is figure out a way to survive going forward.

yes but the problem is, there will still be the torrents, there will still be the ability to make any kind of mp3 and send it to anyone, burn discs for a friend and all these forms of easily copying and distributing high quality sonic copies of the original. So why would this really change or help the situation?
Are you saying then that this other form of sampling would then diminish if this idea was implemented?

I think the idea has validity if it's say 50 to 75% of a song at a 96bitrate for FREE, then it may have some possible help, but this costs time and money to
do for all releases obviously. Would be good to get at least $1 for it, but would someone really pay $1 for this even with a discount later on the disc or other realistic possible perks?

Thoughts?

 

[General Zod]

I think the idea has validity if it's say 50 to 75% of a song at a 96bitrate for FREE, then it may have some possible help, but this costs time and money to do for all releases obviously. Would be good to get at least $1 for it, but would someone really pay $1 for this even with a discount later on the disc or other realistic possible perks?

Thoughts?

I don't think it would have a positive effect at all. First off, as I said, if the only torrent out there is at 128Kbps, I wait for something at a higher bit rate. I don't believe giving people crappy MP3s is going to diminish their desire for quality digital music. Regardless, the major labels would never go for this. It would completely expose the shame that their business model is. They want you to hear the one decent single they put on the radio and drop your $14.99 for the CD. If you could hear the entire CD, you'd know that every song but the single is crap, and you'd never buy the CD.

Zod

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

What you're failing to mention is that the landscape in 2007 is much more different than it was in 1999 (Napster launch). And the word hasn't been that file sharing is going to bring the end to the music business, rather, "unchallenged FREE file-sharing" would bring and end to the industry as we know it. That's an important difference, isn't it?

Fortunately, the music industry sued Napster in 2000. Napster lost and went bankrupt. The Napster brand and logos were purchased by Roxio for name recognition and "Napster 2.0" is now a legal pay-for-download service, just like iTunes, and all the other similar outlets that sell copyrighted music legally and provide royalties to the musicians, in no doubt helping make 1262 metal releases in 2007 possible. Computer programs like SNOCAP on a band's MySpace page also enable a band to sell their music which helps pay for their independent releases.

Napster's actions in 1999 were illegal, and the music industry took action, and won. BitTorrents are a new technology, and again the music industry is taking action against those who use the technology to steal copyrighted music. Eight years from now, the landscape will change yet again. BitTorrents will have been beaten down by legal challenges, but there will be another form of piracy to take it's place. Hopefully, the legal pay-for-download services like iTunes will continue to thrive over the next eight years, allowing musicians to collect royalties from sales of their music, giving them reason to continue making music and not surrender their creative talents to office or factory jobs.

Just no. Do me a favor and look for Orphaned Land (you'll only find Mabool) or Eluvietie in the iTunes store. Find anything? Nope, thought so. If you seriously think iTunes and Napster did anything for this influx of underground music you are completely wrong.

"the music industry is taking action"


Yeah like legalizing file sharing, which is what France, Sweden, Denmark, Holland and many others are either doing right now or are considering. The RIAA bitches about it, but they don't represent the music industry as a whole. The USA isn't the center of the universe.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

never-mind that The Pirate Bay openly engages in copyright infringement.

Technically, so does Google for providing links to websites like The Pirate Bay... Even worse- technically so do YOU for even publicly acknowledging The Pirate Bay in the first place.

And for the record, TPB has gone to court before and WON. Do your research.

 

[The Fiddler]

Technically, so does Google for providing links to websites like The Pirate Bay... Even worse- technically so do YOU for even publicly acknowledging The Pirate Bay in the first place.

I'll let your logic speak for itself. You are a true intellectual giant.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

I'll let your logic speak for itself. You are a true intellectual giant.

How is my logic wrong? In fact this was the very defense OiNK made in his interview with MTV.com when his site got shut down. All charges (copyright infringement, conspiracy to commit fraud) were dropped. If these torrent sites "engage in copyright infringement," so does anyone else who links people to them since the site admins themselves do not post the torrents but rather the users themselves. All I'm saying is that research is your friend!