I've never used a metronome. What do you use a metronome for ? Seriously ? I thought a click track was just something to make sure a recording does not vary in tempo, are there other uses ?
Phrasing/Soloing Practice
- Thread starter noble savage
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Eternal Dragon
1337AD
I have a somewhat "inner" approach to improvising. By that I mean that I don't think about anything other than the scale i'm in, and I play to what I feel. It helps a LOT to have an inspiring backing track to play over, but usually if I have a clear mind then it all tends to flow out quite nicely.
You have to be able to get around your instrument quite well to do this though, so if you can play within your scales while 99% focussing on something else then that should be ok.
So how does it work? Basically I just muck around staying in the scale and also deviating out to other stuff, until I find something that sounds good. It would help if I had better pitch and chord recognition, because then I would be able to replicate anything that pops into my head. Also work a new chord or scale into your improvisation so that you can test it out in a practical situation. You can also build colours or feelings to scales/chords ... which helps for me sometimes I guess.
In a nutshell, if you can feel what you want to play and your fingers automatically play the right stuff, then you're set. And don't try and learn improvisation from a book or video. Just don't. You have to search within yourself for the right notes, otherwise it won't be true improvisation but rather something pre-planned.
You have to be able to get around your instrument quite well to do this though, so if you can play within your scales while 99% focussing on something else then that should be ok.
So how does it work? Basically I just muck around staying in the scale and also deviating out to other stuff, until I find something that sounds good. It would help if I had better pitch and chord recognition, because then I would be able to replicate anything that pops into my head. Also work a new chord or scale into your improvisation so that you can test it out in a practical situation. You can also build colours or feelings to scales/chords ... which helps for me sometimes I guess.
In a nutshell, if you can feel what you want to play and your fingers automatically play the right stuff, then you're set. And don't try and learn improvisation from a book or video. Just don't. You have to search within yourself for the right notes, otherwise it won't be true improvisation but rather something pre-planned.
It's commonly used as a device to help build speed/learn stuff that's too fast for you and gradually speed it up to the click. Most importantly, it's so that you can practice with it and be practicing in time. Practicing out of time is as bad, if not worse, than practicing out of tune. You end up building a habit of playing out of time and your sense of rhythm ends up not being so hot. In 99% of cases, people who can't play with a metronome and lock into the click aren't really locking in when playing with a drummer either, regardless of what they think. Over time, your internal sense of time will improve immensely. It helps to have that timing when you've got a huge riff in the middle of a song all by yourself or if you ever have to accompany a singer with just an acoustic guitar or something. You'll be surprised once that sense of time develops because you'll be a lot more tuned into the time when playing with a band. The slightest shift in tempo will seem huge to you.....so it always helps when EVERYONE in the band has worked this aspect of themselves
When I'm learning a song, once I become familar enough with the notes so that I don't have to completely sight read it, I immediately start practicing either with a metronome or with the recording. 99% of guitarists have or have suffered from bad timing. Even with classical pieces that have a shit load of rubato in them, I always practice them to a steady click until I can do so comfortably and my rubato isn't being dicated by an inability to play something up to speed or anything similar. It's interesting to listen to a good classical guitarist's or pianist's rubato. They're sense of time is so developed that their rubato is 100% balanced out and they compensate for each accelerando and ritardando. In otherwords, despite various spots where they are speeding up and slowing down, they end the piece in the same amount of time they would have if they had been playing it to a metronome click.
I really don't agree with the "don't learn from a book" mentallity. Learning from a book or video doesn't negate the idea of improvisation. There are bad books out there that just give you the whole "learn these exact licks and play them every time you see a dominant chord...." type things, but even then there is valuable information to be taken from them. Anyone who can improvise well started off by stealing someone else's ideas first and applying them to their own satisfaction until they stole enough licks from enough different players to develop their own style. Transcription is the better way of going about this obviously, but there are great books out there (i.e. the Hal Crook book I've already mentioned) that simply lay out concepts for the player/student to work on. The information is in a lot more focused of a format and if worked through as the author reccomends, it'll yield much quicker and more efficient progress than someone trying to figure these things out with no direction whatsoever.
As far as the preplanned vs. true improvisation, you can split hairs on that forever. If you know anything about the tune you are soloing on, then it's going to be preplanned to an extent. If you have a scale or any certain arpeggios in mind, then the solo is planned out to an even greater extent. Free jazz is the closest you'll get to "true" improvisation but even with that, there are many hairs to split.
*not trying to attack here, just offering a rebuttal
I have never had timing problems, fortunantly... one of the few things I have going on. Probably because I learned how to play with a very natural drummer, as well as drum and bugle core trained. So I guess he was always my metronome when I was starting out. In fact I hate playing without a drummer. Thats all thats going on here now, is me and my friend "the drummer" (different friend). I have a few things that are kinda screwed up timing and throw my drummer friends till they figure out what Im doing. I guess it might be polyrhythms?, not similtainously (stacked) but happen in route through progressions. Ive been told to do it on a click track because they think it wrong(till I make them sit and count) But I can come home and play to a basic rock or metal drum beat on my Xbox and sure enough I always come back around on 1 and they flow smooth as hell. Like I said, not bragging but its one of the few bragging rites I have as dexterity and syncopation between my pick hand and string fingers is lacking for being any form of shredder. I credit my timing to my buddy I grew up with, let me tell you he had all those drum rudiments down and for that reason really knew how to use his toms to the fullest. He wasnt one of these constant snare drum, four stroke roll bashers.... ba da da da.... bah humbug. His fills had feel and utilized the whole set.
I dont practice alone in time though, if I screw up my tecnique... its like a skip in a record, Ill just repeat the spot I made the mistake in a few times till Im happy then continue..... but I wouldnt be surprised if I actually do that in time as well.
I have played with guitar and bass players as well as a few learning drummers that have lousy timing and it drives me nuts.
I can see how its a good tool to use for learning stuff thats too fast, as you mentioned, but I only play what comes out of me. We just starting running through a few of our old cover tunes for fun and relaxation but they are basic stuff. I have a fear of learning other music, that it will show up and interfer in my strange creative process. Different I know but Ive always been that way. I'd rather learn new theory or feel new rhythmic ideas, next thing you know, something new will start to flow.
I have to "write" (not literally), my solos ideas though. Usually by taking the best pieces here and there of multiple, otherwise horrible improv attempts and hear what I should have done next, figure that out and move on to the next screw up...... lol. Someday Ill have to learn a bunch of these "tricks" but I dont want to sound like a fretboard exercise machine. Now when Im not busy with riffs or rhythms Im concentrating on better use of intervals rather then running a lot of scaler "happy horse shit" which has always been a flaw of mine. Improv is at the bottom of the list at this time. When I get this stuff done I may have a great, local, well seasoned and versed lead player lay down solo tracks anyhow. Would be the iceing on the cake, hes a good friend.
I dont practice alone in time though, if I screw up my tecnique... its like a skip in a record, Ill just repeat the spot I made the mistake in a few times till Im happy then continue..... but I wouldnt be surprised if I actually do that in time as well.
I have played with guitar and bass players as well as a few learning drummers that have lousy timing and it drives me nuts.
I can see how its a good tool to use for learning stuff thats too fast, as you mentioned, but I only play what comes out of me. We just starting running through a few of our old cover tunes for fun and relaxation but they are basic stuff. I have a fear of learning other music, that it will show up and interfer in my strange creative process. Different I know but Ive always been that way. I'd rather learn new theory or feel new rhythmic ideas, next thing you know, something new will start to flow.
I have to "write" (not literally), my solos ideas though. Usually by taking the best pieces here and there of multiple, otherwise horrible improv attempts and hear what I should have done next, figure that out and move on to the next screw up...... lol. Someday Ill have to learn a bunch of these "tricks" but I dont want to sound like a fretboard exercise machine. Now when Im not busy with riffs or rhythms Im concentrating on better use of intervals rather then running a lot of scaler "happy horse shit" which has always been a flaw of mine. Improv is at the bottom of the list at this time. When I get this stuff done I may have a great, local, well seasoned and versed lead player lay down solo tracks anyhow. Would be the iceing on the cake, hes a good friend.
schenkadere
Obey my dog!
I really don't agree with the "don't learn from a book" mentallity. Learning from a book or video doesn't negate the idea of improvisation. There are bad books out there that just give you the whole "learn these exact licks and play them every time you see a dominant chord...." type things, but even then there is valuable information to be taken from them. Anyone who can improvise well started off by stealing someone else's ideas first and applying them to their own satisfaction until they stole enough licks from enough different players to develop their own style. Transcription is the better way of going about this obviously, but there are great books out there (i.e. the Hal Crook book I've already mentioned) that simply lay out concepts for the player/student to work on. The information is in a lot more focused of a format and if worked through as the author reccomends, it'll yield much quicker and more efficient progress than someone trying to figure these things out with no direction whatsoever.
As far as the preplanned vs. true improvisation, you can split hairs on that forever. If you know anything about the tune you are soloing on, then it's going to be preplanned to an extent. If you have a scale or any certain arpeggios in mind, then the solo is planned out to an even greater extent. Free jazz is the closest you'll get to "true" improvisation but even with that, there are many hairs to split.
*not trying to attack here, just offering a rebuttal
I agree with you 100%, Meedles. Everything has some level of "planning" Everyone has their repretoire of licks, scales and arpeggios...it's how you lay them out to create musical ideas and how you execute them dynamically as a tool for your expression...that's improvisation.
If there was no planning, you'd have to be the ultimate musical genious.
Eternal Dragon
1337AD
Well I do agree with that also since its probably quite a borderline topic. I just find that I come up with good ideas when I work with licks I've done before, but I come up with totally awesome ideas when I forget about that and just let it flow out. Thats just from my experience though.
schenkadere
Obey my dog!
Every guitarist...even the greatest, repeat licks. They form style and create their signature. What guitarist can you think of that doesn't repeat licks? You work within your window of knowledge...again, unless you have an unnatural ear and some elevated form of musical genious, you work from what you know.
I agree with this for the reason that... from what I know... many of the best expressed solos in my listening history were spontainous. I also feel that I can tell from watching live performances if a players really feelin it or throwing out a bag of tricks.
The recently posted Gary Moore clip is prime example of this. Regardless of how many times he may have played that piece at least similiar, there was alot more going on there than a bag of tricks.
Books and papers cant teach you to feel it.... thats a challenge that can only be met inside the head and its a damn hard place to find sometimes. Here is where the bag of tricks can bail you out.
