Piano Reamping!

[Ermz]

Thought some of you guys may be interested in this. Times come up when we are stuck with boring MIDI tracks, would like to mic up a real piano, but unfortunately either the studio time, piano, player or whatever else are prohibitive.

Cue these guys: http://www.pianotracks.com.au

 

[exoslime]

that is a very interesting idea!! thanks for the link

But I think most midi tracks, created by none piano players, lack in expression in playing. and this, imho makes if it sounds great or fail..

 

[Notuern]

Well.. since its a machine playing it, you might as well use a good VST.

[rant]
You have no idea how complex a piano really is.. im working in a piano store and have done a few piano setups, and f*cking hell there is a shitload of adjustments to do.
You have to adjust the hammers so that they hit the strings evenly, then you have to adjust the dropout point of the hammers(How deep from the string and how fast the hammer will fall of after hitting it.), then you adjust the "air"(What the dynamics of the keys should feel like.), then you have the hammer axis etc.
Every single part in a piano is adjustable, every single part is setup so that it will react to HOW you hit the key(Even sideways.), and if you dont feel how the mechanics react to your playing, its basically useless to use a real piano, you might as well use a good VST.

[/rant]

 

[JMarz]

Well.. since its a machine playing it, you might as well use a good VST.

[rant]
You have no idea how complex a piano really is.. im working in a piano store and have done a few piano setups, and f*cking hell there is a shitload of adjustments to do.
You have to adjust the hammers so that they hit the strings evenly, then you have to adjust the dropout point of the hammers(How deep from the string and how fast the hammer will fall of after hitting it.), then you adjust the "air"(What the dynamics of the keys should feel like.), then you have the hammer axis etc.
Every single part in a piano is adjustable, every single part is setup so that it will react to HOW you hit the key(Even sideways.), and if you dont feel how the mechanics react to your playing, its basically useless to use a real piano, you might as well use a good VST.

[/rant]

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

Just melted my brain, man.

 

[deanbailey]

...every single part is setup so that it will react to HOW you hit the key(Even sideways.), and if you dont feel how the mechanics react to your playing, its basically useless to use a real piano, you might as well use a good VST.

I agree with you 100%

But with the above quote being said...the same principle applies to re amping a guitar.

It's been said here a million times, but like a classical/jazz player (who are the best musicians imo) who plays feeding off another instrument because they feel it, so do you when you hear your guitar tone and you react on it.

But thats off topic.

 

[Notuern]

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

Just melted my brain, man.

Yeah, imagine adjusting every single one of those parts on all 88 keys!
Its a bitch! And the worst part is that you cant measure the adjustments, its all feeling, since all good pianos are handmade all individual parts are slightly different from each other. ;P

I agree with you 100%

But with the above quote being said...the same principle applies to re amping a guitar.

It's been said here a million times, but like a classical/jazz player (who are the best musicians imo) who plays feeding off another instrument because they feel it, so do you when you hear your guitar tone and you react on it.

But thats off topic.

Yeah, its like when i play guitar.. at least i believe that im a very dynamic player, so reamping would suck for me, as i adjust the dynamics in my playing according to how the amp reacts.

But comparing this to reamping is slightly off though.. this is more comparable to lets say a keyboard player that cant play guitar, so he writes everything in midi and send over to a company who have a robot playing those guitar parts for him.. you dont get to feel the strings, adjust your left hand according to the intonation spread along the neck, adjust your playing to the pickups, scale length or bridge/tremolo etc.

 

[Ermz]

Don't spose any of you actually listened to the clips then?

 

[Morgan C]

It sounded great, no doubt.. but I'm not convinced that you couldn't get that sound with a VST. The VST they were using seemed like it had the velocities set very high and the lowmids scooped out, so that when the real one came in it sounded much more full and realistic. But I don't have much/any experience with piano VSTs.

 

[Ermz]

Synthogy Ivory is the current most 'realistic' piano sim, it's over 40 gig and sounds a bit dull and distant. It lacks a certain air and cohesion that the piano tracks here have.

Honestly, I think what they're doing is a great idea. It's really no different to reamping, since MIDI is fine enough to catch about 99% of your playing dynamics and timing, just as your DI/Preamp/Converter chain would to guitar. What's put out on the other and is solely dependent on the quality of the input, as always. Shit in, shit out. Not sure I quite saw the need for the dogmatic rants about purity... I mean, in this of all forums, where every 2nd production is so laden with drum samples & DI everything, that the concept of people playing in a room together seems like it was from another millennium. Sounds to me like when it's drums or guitars, it's fine to totally negate the player/instrument feel aspect, but when it comes to getting around the static, sterile sampled piano sound, oh god no, how dare we?

 

[Notuern]

Yups, sounded pretty good.. not better or worse then any of the great vst's that are out there today though.
Pretty kewl machine though! Would be fun to send over a midi "just for fun".

Examples of great sounding FREE VST's that in my ears sound just as good:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJQvCcJ69Dw&[/ame]

.. on the other hand, the Yamaha C7 isnt THAT great, i prefer and Imperial Bösendorfer, or Steinway Model D.
My boss actually worked as an apprentice at Steinwey during the 90's, and he said the quality control was _INSANE_.. if there was a scratch on a wooden piece that would be sealed in a corner(Impossible to see without destroying the piano.), they would redo the entire piece!

 

[Morgan C]

^ That second one sounds great.. but its hardware not a free VST?

 

[Notuern]

Honestly, I think what they're doing is a great idea. It's really no different to reamping, since MIDI is fine enough to catch about 99% of your playing dynamics and timing, just as your DI/Preamp/Converter chain would to guitar. What's put out on the other and is solely dependent on the quality of the input, as always. Shit in, shit out. Not sure I quite saw the need for the dogmatic rants about purity... I mean, in this of all forums, where every 2nd production is so laden with drum samples & DI everything, that the concept of people playing in a room together seems like it was from another millennium. Sounds to me like when it's drums or guitars, it's fine to totally negate the player/instrument feel aspect, but when it comes to getting around the static, sterile sampled piano sound, oh god no, how dare we?

.. thats not how it works.
Are you a piano player? If not, you just wont understand it.
Comparing a piano to a midi-keyboard is impossible, and a piano reacts to more then how hard and fast you hit the keys etc.

Its the same thing as to saying that you could send a midi file with guitar tracks to the same company, and let their robot play the guitar.. because the midi has 99% of your dynamics and timing.. right?

If you want to compare using something like this for reamping, it would rather be like tracking the movement of each individual part inside of the piano, then you send those "tracks" to a company which has a better sounding piano where they have a machine that allows every single part of the pianos mechanic to move exactly the same as it did when you first recorded it.
You are just not understanding how f*cking complicated a piano really is, and how that affects the players dynamics.

Even if you never have played the keys ever before in your life, i promise you that you will feel a DRASTIC difference between the most advanced hammer weighted midi-keyboard and a real grand piano... il just repost!

THIS:

VS:

Thats basically, THIS:

VS:

 

[Notuern]

^ That second one sounds great.. but its hardware not a free VST?

Ah, my bad.. haven't slept for a few days!

Edit:
Oh, and to you Ermz.. I really dont have any problems with people using this service, thats fine.. but i _KNOW_ that it cant possibly be better then a good VST or hardware unit, so i just dont see the point of this service(We have Yamaha and Roland hammer-weighted midi-mechanics in our shop, they dont work anywhere near like a real piano does.).
When you have adjusted each individual component between the key and the string of a piano and really understand how it works, you are welcome to come back with some real critisism to my statements.
Its no point for me to continue arguing about this as ive already made my points.

 

[Ermz]

I'm not doubting the complexity of the piano as an instrument at all. I'm sure there is a lot involved and the sort of performance a player gives into a MIDI controller won't perfectly transpose to a real grand, that's all good and well.

The situation however is that their clips sound rather good, and certainly better than any sampled piano I've heard - including those two you posted up above. I go by ear, and whatever sounds best goes. A mechanism can be as complex as it wants... all that matters for a recording situation is the end product.

 

[Notuern]

I'm not doubting the complexity of the piano as an instrument at all. I'm sure there is a lot involved and the sort of performance a player gives into a MIDI controller won't perfectly transpose to a real grand, that's all good and well.

The situation however is that their clips sound rather good, and certainly better than any sampled piano I've heard - including those two you posted up above. I go by ear, and whatever sounds best goes. A mechanism can be as complex as it wants... all that matters for a recording situation is the end product.

Ok.. well, i really dont think that this product sounded that good.. but then on the other hand, i think the Yamaha C7 sounds pretty flat and boring, so allot of it might come from that as well.

Just for teh lulz: http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=210

 

[colynomial]

For the record Ermz, I think it's a cool idea.

I've actually used one of these in real life and the obvious advantage would be microphone selection and placement. Naturally if you're sending it off for "reamping" (so to speak) you may not have direct control on that kind of thing but it's an option you wouldn't otherwise have with sample libraries. Also, there's gotta be some physical parameters of the actuators themselves which are not completel perfect all the time so I think you might gain a bit more realism doing it this way. Also, playing a single sample is going to be exactly identical every single time while striking a string with the same velocity every single time is likely not going to be perfectly identical. Even with really precise actuators as the string resonates it changes the physical shape of it causing the hammer to strike the string slightly differently. Plus the way the reverb builds up in the room must have a different effect than overlaying samples. That said- VST instruments are probably pretty darn close and probably a lot cheaper if you're using pianos a lot.

 

[TheDude]

.. on the other hand, the Yamaha C7 isnt THAT great, i prefer and Imperial Bösendorfer, or Steinway Model D.
My boss actually worked as an apprentice at Steinwey during the 90's, and he said the quality control was _INSANE_.. if there was a scratch on a wooden piece that would be sealed in a corner(Impossible to see without destroying the piano.), they would redo the entire piece!

Yeah, the $20,000 Yamaha C7 isn't that great because you prefer a $180,000 Bösendorfer Imperial or an even more expensive Steinway D, considered to be the two best grand pianos in the world, ever?

Sorry man, but that argument was just... I bet I could make a Steinway model D (Yes, I have played one) sound worse than a Yamaha C7. As always it's shit in, shit out, and we all know that the wrong miking techniques with the wrong mike can fuck up anything so your arguments are...

And since we're talking about feeling and such. Since I've been playing the piano since 1980, not like Yngwie Malmsteen, but yeah, it all comes down to what you're used to work with. I love to play a Piano with real hammer action, but I can easily play on a synth keyboard and get the same end result. Note that I say END result, since being in a great acoustic environment with the most expensive Grand Piano in the world isn't really an option for me especially, but anyone on this forum really. Sure, a noob playing the keyboard, clicking in notes with a mouse in the DAW, and expect it to sound like Frederic Chopin feeling mellow is going to be disappointed, but those demos sound good, and it's played in real time in a real environment through a real piano. With your knowledge about pianos, you should know that those facts does make it sound good.

Good find Ermz. Very nice indeed.

/Carry on.

 

[Notuern]

Yeah, the $20,000 Yamaha C7 isn't that great because you prefer a $180,000 Bösendorfer Imperial or an even more expensive Steinway D, considered to be the two best grand pianos in the world, ever?

Sorry man, but that argument was just... I bet I could make a Steinway model D (Yes, I have played one) sound worse than a Yamaha C7. As always it's shit in, shit out, and we all know that the wrong miking techniques with the wrong mike can fuck up anything so your arguments are...

And since we're talking about feeling and such. Since I've been playing the piano since 1980, not like Yngwie Malmsteen, but yeah, it all comes down to what you're used to work with. I love to play a Piano with real hammer action, but I can easily play on a synth keyboard and get the same end result. Note that I say END result, since being in a great acoustic environment with the most expensive Grand Piano in the world isn't really an option for me especially, but anyone on this forum really. Sure, a noob playing the keyboard, clicking in notes with a mouse in the DAW, and expect it to sound like Frederic Chopin feeling mellow is going to be disappointed, but those demos sound good, and it's played in real time in a real environment through a real piano. With your knowledge about pianos, you should know that those facts does make it sound good.

Good find Ermz. Very nice indeed.

/Carry on.

I have personally played the Yamaha C7, and a Steinway D.. and i really dont get why that argument is "wrong"? I think that the Yamaha C7 sounds pretty bad.. really box, doesnt have that nice warmth or that brightness in the higher keys.. id take a 5000$ Malmsjö over the Yamaha C7 any day, they sound allot better in my ears.

What fails in YOUR argument is that the samples created for the more famous VST's out there are recorded in what probably are some of the greatest acoustic environments for a grand piano, through a REAL piano, with a REAL human being pressing the keys.
I didnt really think that those videos sound BAD, i just dont think that they sound that good either.. its like a good sampled piano: It doesnt sound bad, but it doesnt sound great either.
Why would a robot reacting perfectly according to a midi-file sound better then a good sampled piano?

Again, im not saying that its worse, but i cant see(Hear) why its any better either.

 

[Zack Uidl]

Seems pretty cool generally speaking. Sounds good for sure. However, I am not convinced it would be worth it considering I could just hire a pianist to do it for the same or cheaper.

Thanks for sharing

 

[TheDude]

What fails in YOUR argument is that the samples created for the more famous VST's out there are recorded in what probably are some of the greatest acoustic environments for a grand piano, through a REAL piano, with a REAL human being pressing the keys.
I didnt really think that those videos sound BAD, i just dont think that they sound that good either.. its like a good sampled piano: It doesnt sound bad, but it doesnt sound great either.
Why would a robot reacting perfectly according to a midi-file sound better then a good sampled piano?

Show me a sample library with 127 levels of velocity with and without the sustain/attenuato pedal, making a sample count of 381 samples per note with at least one minute of sustain, in 24/96, miked with 6 different mics, and I'll show you a Grand Piano library that's about 6,6TB. Most of the libraries that are good doesn't have 50 velocity levels. Some that sound "fabulous" have 12 with and 12 without sustain pedal. That's not realism compared to the "robot" even if a human played all those 24 notes.

Fail or not, having a piano that actually plays the shit FOR REAL is the ultimate in realism. Then, as I stated earlier, if you program a passage with a mouse, all sample libraries will sound like shit, but the real piano will still have complete between all strings played and not played.

I won't argue no more. If you don't get my point...