Political and economic history

No, their whole connection of Christ to ancient Egypt theory was based on a really poor understanding of cosmology. Egypt is the northern hemisphere and the Southern Cross is in the southern hemisphere, which would have been invisible to the ancient civilizations of the fertile crescent. Granted, that was only from one documentary, but that's all it took for me. If they get that one basic bit of info wrong, then I have very little confidence in all their other theories.
 
Richard is right, child labor in mines was a symptom of a problem, and making laws to address symptoms merely forces symptoms to manifest themselves in other ways.

Which is exactly what Ron Paul has been preaching for years. Stop focusing on the symptoms and the disease and try and understand the cause and eliminate that.

Could you guys talk a bit about the problem of which child labor is a symptom?
 
Could you guys talk a bit about the problem of which child labor is a symptom?

As a child is a consumer, whether with or without the presence of parents, why must a child work? It is because there is a lack of goods for the child to consume. I have never seen a parent force their child to work when there was even a modicum of excess to support the child.

Why were the parents unable to support their children's basic sustenance in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution? Children worked "the farm" from time immemorial, so the concept of children working was not alien, but the work required of them in the industrial revolution was exetremely harsh compared to the work expected on a farm.

No one examined children working on a farm, as the work directly went hand-to-mouth. As work migrated to the cities and the work-to-food-to-mouth was less direct, the worthless class (wives of the rich, etc) had nothing better to do than to butt their noses into everyone else's business. Thus "child labor" came under scrutinization. While condititions werre deplorable, that had nothing to do with the root issues and nothing to do with the age of the workers. As child workers were restricted, this hurt the working families, and led to a desire for government assistance, as families who were originally dependent on support from the work of the entire family, were now dependent on one income to support all the hungry mouths. Thus through government regulation, the need for taxation(theft) swelled to support actually uneconomic movements in the market. Thus, the government subsisdized the Industrial Revolution. In foreign markets, where people complain about "child labor", the same situation presents itself. As the government and the UN remove the ability for people to live in a sustainable way off the land, children supporting their own mouths is the only way for borderline impovrished families to live. The ne'er-do-wells focusing on the symptom and not the cause, are actually making life worse for such families, instead of "helping the children".
 
I think mass production of food (and other shit) is a much better situation than everyone needing to live hand-to-mouth with subsistence farming. Are you actually suggesting that people should have never participated in industrialization to begin with, or could you perhaps describe some way in which we could have both industrialization and humane child labor at the same time (which is obviously my preference) without having a government to establish child labor laws?
 
zabu of nΩd;10122212 said:
I think mass production of food (and other shit) is a much better situation than everyone needing to live hand-to-mouth with subsistence farming. Are you actually suggesting that people should have never participated in industrialization to begin with, or could you perhaps describe some way in which we could have both industrialization and humane child labor at the same time (which is obviously my preference) without having a government to establish child labor laws?

No property taxes, and no sales taxes on food/necessities would be a major part/start. I would argue that industrialization of the typical American family was 'forced' partially because of environmental/regulatory situtations in the early 20th century.

Edit: Mass production of food creates an extreme amount of waste in production, not to mention distribution, which I am witness to directly in Yuma. AZ. It also lends itself to soil depletion, as constant "production" of the soil is the primary goal, as opposed to actually nutritious food, which is only the interest of immediate/local consumers.
 
No, their whole connection of Christ to ancient Egypt theory was based on a really poor understanding of cosmology. Egypt is the northern hemisphere and the Southern Cross is in the southern hemisphere, which would have been invisible to the ancient civilizations of the fertile crescent. Granted, that was only from one documentary, but that's all it took for me. If they get that one basic bit of info wrong, then I have very little confidence in all their other theories.

While the religion part of Zeitgeist was poorly done by Peter Joseph, you should watch the 9/11 and Federal Reserve/Rockefeller/war/Bush scenes of the movie.


http://youtu.be/vuBo4E77ZXo

http://youtu.be/hBTtS9lfW_M

http://youtu.be/4Z9WVZddH9w

http://youtu.be/1gKX9TWRyfs

http://youtu.be/0T9fENn_zQY
 
If you're planning on having time to read, perhaps you'd be interested in listening to a fairly good interview with Noam Chomsky.

Chomsky is very anti-statist to the point of anarchism, but has some interesting ideas that stand in contrast to the typical anarcho-capitalist perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkaO12X-h1Y&feature=related

Chomsky, of course, has dozens of books that warrant attention if you're interested in politics and economics; Hegemony or Survival, Profit Over People: Neoliberalism and Global Order, and of course Manufacturing Consent: the Political Economy of the Mass Media.

Well i just watched this, and based on how long-winded and full of generalizations and weasel words Chomsky is, i'm not sure i would survive one of his books without feeling severely ill.

I would not call this a good interview. For one thing, the main interviewer (the guy with the weird hair) is just throwing questions at Chomsky, and is clearly incapable of thinking independently and engaging him in an intelligent conversation. He doesn't even seem interested in the answers Chomsky gives, which i found particularly annoying when Chomsky did not provide a real answer to the question of how you motivate people to do undesirable jobs under a socialist system (Chomsky uses university researchers as an example to argue that everybody can find work that they love ffs :lol:).

Chomsky may just be totally bored with the interview, or he may be old and senile, but he really doesn't seem very sharp and focused with what he's talking about. As i mentioned, his language is often very unscientific, and besides that he often makes these really vague, grandiose claims that he just assumes the audience agrees on without any need for detail (i.e. that the "doom" of humanity from climate change is inevitable, or that it's a "miracle" we haven't had a massive nuclear war yet, or that Greece is guaranteed to default on their debt and "no one's going to help them"). But also he doesn't pay very close attention to the details in the questions he gets, one of the worst cases being where someone claims that support for Marx's ideas declined between the '70s and '80s and asks Chomsky why he thinks this happened, but Chomsky just gives a general explanation of why people avoid Marx without acknowledging the time-specific question.

With that said, there are a few interesting movements/groups Chomsky refers to (i.e. Libertarian Spain, Mandragan and Parecon) that i could look into more, but i feel like i came out of that video very short on real details as opposed to generalizations and opinions i didn't need.
 
While the religion part of Zeitgeist was poorly done by Peter Joseph, you should watch the 9/11 and Federal Reserve/Rockefeller/war/Bush scenes of the movie.

The Bush legacy extended from the Eugenis/Nazi/IG Farben/Dupont/Monsanto/Masonic legacies, which takes very little information to "uncover". THe zeitgeist films are little more than an appetizer to the actual amount of information out there regarding the global corruption of the government/military classes/actions.

Edit: @ Zabu: Excellent critique of Chomsky, without even getting into the idealogical isssues I have (IE econonmically idealogical issues).
 
No property taxes, and no sales taxes on food/necessities would be a major part/start. I would argue that industrialization of the typical American family was 'forced' partially because of environmental/regulatory situtations in the early 20th century.

Edit: Mass production of food creates an extreme amount of waste in production, not to mention distribution, which I am witness to directly in Yuma. AZ. It also lends itself to soil depletion, as constant "production" of the soil is the primary goal, as opposed to actually nutritious food, which is only the interest of immediate/local consumers.

I don't really want to get into the waste and quality issues of mass production right now, so let's focus on this question of how humanity could have industrialized without creating inhumane work conditions. If i understand correctly, you're saying it could have happened if people weren't forced to move to cities due to property/sales taxes. I'll grant you that as part of the issue, but we still have the case of factory owners basically buying children into slavery from orphanages, so how do you solve that problem?
 
zabu of nΩd;10122233 said:
I don't really want to get into the waste and quality issues of mass production right now, so let's focus on this question of how humanity could have industrialized without creating inhumane work conditions. If i understand correctly, you're saying it could have happened if people weren't forced to move to cities due to property/sales taxes. I'll grant you that as part of the issue, but we still have the case of factory owners basically buying children into slavery from orphanages, so how do you solve that problem?

Why were children in orphanages/ why were orphanages unable to house all of the 'refugees' without resorting to selling them?
 
Why were children in orphanages/ why were orphanages unable to house all of the 'refugees' without resorting to selling them?

Let's see if we can spare me some research right now and try to reason through this with a few basic assumptions (which you will hopefully agree with).

Assumption #1: there will always be children in orphanages, because some kids are "mistakes" or the parents turn out to be too irresponsible to take care of them.

Assumption #2: there will always be some orphanage caretakers who (under the conditions of the early Industrial Revolution) are greedy enough to be tempted into selling kids, or dumb enough to be fooled into thinking that selling the kids will give them a better life (i.e. living under a factory owner who can provide for them).

I think this covers the root causes of a lot of these cases of factory kids, and thus i maintain that you can't do away with laws and government by deregulating your way into some Lockean society where the better part of human nature takes care of everything bad.


Also, regarding your claim that taxes and regulations drove people to urbanize during industrialization: doesn't that assume that most pre-industrial people owned their land in the first place? My impression was that Europe was very feudal up until then, with the nobility basically owning everything and administering the 'privilege' of working the land to the average people. If that's the case, industrialization was really more of a migration of the lower classes from one "cage" to another.
 
Yeah that's a good way to put it. I guess i owe him some degree of reading before i can write him off -- he raised a few interesting topics during that interview i watched, and maybe in the text format he's easier to "take seriously" as you say.
 
As a child is a consumer, whether with or without the presence of parents, why must a child work? It is because there is a lack of goods for the child to consume. I have never seen a parent force their child to work when there was even a modicum of excess to support the child.

I see this all the time; parents today, both bourgeois and underclass, constantly pressure their kids into working. That whole "instill a work ethic" thing.

Why were the parents unable to support their children's basic sustenance in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution? Children worked "the farm" from time immemorial, so the concept of children working was not alien, but the work required of them in the industrial revolution was exetremely harsh compared to the work expected on a farm.

As work migrated to the cities and the work-to-food-to-mouth was less direct, the worthless class (wives of the rich, etc) had nothing better to do than to butt their noses into everyone else's business. Thus "child labor" came under scrutinization. While condititions werre deplorable, that had nothing to do with the root issues and nothing to do with the age of the workers. As child workers were restricted, this hurt the working families, and led to a desire for government assistance, as families who were originally dependent on support from the work of the entire family, were now dependent on one income to support all the hungry mouths. Thus through government regulation, the need for taxation(theft) swelled to support actually uneconomic movements in the market. Thus, the government subsisdized the Industrial Revolution. In foreign markets, where people complain about "child labor", the same situation presents itself. As the government and the UN remove the ability for people to live in a sustainable way off the land, children supporting their own mouths is the only way for borderline impovrished families to live. The ne'er-do-wells focusing on the symptom and not the cause, are actually making life worse for such families, instead of "helping the children".

I'm sorry, but I don't see where you're argument is going. According to you, poor labor conditions for children are a symptom; but a symptom of what? Not government intervention or anything of the sort, because these regulations only came about after NCLC and others in the "worthless class" began clamoring for reform. Are you arguing against industrialization?

zabu of nΩd;10122224 said:
Chomsky may just be totally bored with the interview, or he may be old and senile, but he really doesn't seem very sharp and focused with what he's talking about. As i mentioned, his language is often very unscientific, and besides that he often makes these really vague, grandiose claims that he just assumes the audience agrees on without any need for detail (i.e. that the "doom" of humanity from climate change is inevitable, or that it's a "miracle" we haven't had a massive nuclear war yet, or that Greece is guaranteed to default on their debt and "no one's going to help them"). But also he doesn't pay very close attention to the details in the questions he gets, one of the worst cases being where someone claims that support for Marx's ideas declined between the '70s and '80s and asks Chomsky why he thinks this happened, but Chomsky just gives a general explanation of why people avoid Marx without acknowledging the time-specific question.

In all honesty, Chomsky's probably earned the right to speak in these sweeping generalizations. And you're right, he does expect his audience to agree with him on a number of points; because he's laid out the more complex and informative argument in his books.

Chomsky is questioning the ideas of "incentive" and "ownership." One big claim of his is that we've been conditioned by our society today to not be able to think "beyond capitalism." He's trying (perhaps unsuccessfully in the interview) to raise our awareness of other possibilities. I would say that his books are in fact much more rewarding than that interview.
 
Have you had willing the time to check out ZEITGEIST yet zabu? And I got some more great stuff if you want to learn the history of America.

Loose Change

Money Masters
 
I'll jump on the Zabu bandwagon here. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about him; he is absolutely long winded. I do like, conceptually, "anarcho-socialism", because that is how a good family is run, imo. There has to be a fair division of labor (chores in a family setting, with mom, dad, and all kids participating) along with a roughly equal distribution of capital (my children actually receive more of my money than I do because I'm providing them "welfare"). I don't see why small communities can't operate this way without being under the thumb of a central government.
 
The problem is getting everyone to voluntarily assist others; you voluntarily give your children money because you love them. Thus it is necessary for a large-scale community to be made up of similar relationships if we want to see a successful collectivist society. But there's no reason to assume it's impossible, or immoral; there's no coercion involved in such a society.

Unfortunately, much "common sense" thought today neglects the possibility that such large-scale collectivist communities could exist. We're trained to be unable to think beyond liberalist economics.
 
I haven't abandoned this thread, just too busy to reply to everything right now. I say that if Sap and Ein can't see "that how a good family works" has absolutely nothing in common with anarcho-socialism, when it is glaringly obvious, that is disturbing.
 
I have never seen a convincing explanation for how property rights in external things are connected to (i.e., justified by) the concept of self-ownership.

How about the concept that without property rights no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life and the man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.
 
The problem is getting everyone to voluntarily assist others; you voluntarily give your children money because you love them. Thus it is necessary for a large-scale community to be made up of similar relationships if we want to see a successful collectivist society. But there's no reason to assume it's impossible, or immoral; there's no coercion involved in such a society.

Unfortunately, much "common sense" thought today neglects the possibility that such large-scale collectivist communities could exist. We're trained to be unable to think beyond liberalist economics.

In my view, This is contradictory & anti-individual.