Political discussions and other rants about useless things like culture

[Defiance]

^ Yeah I skimmed an article on today's paper about that, and immediately thought of you. That Geert guy doesn't seem very capable (I mean, look at his hair! ), and the extreme-right winning is definitely not a good sign. They'll probably make marijuana illegal again, the bastards!!!

 

[Maxim1110]

Yeah he isn't capable, he's right about as capable as his haircut shows him to be

We've had quite a lot of public debating on TV the last few weeks, and I generally found him really weak. Every time an issue was raised he was like "oh that was islam's fault" or "if only we wouldn't have had mass-immigration..." I remember Job Cohen, leader of the PvdA (Labour Party ish) had a really good one when Wilders had calculated the annual costs of foreigners. He was like "well should we go and calculate the annual costs of disabled peaple? Or of Old people perhapse, and throw them out as well?"

The strongest of them all was definitely Femke Halsema, leader of GroenLinks. It's also the only woman among the leaders of the 8 biggest parties. She usually attacked Wilders with very strong arguments, but also with a sense of subtlety, like "One thing we can't deny about Mr. Wilders is the great amount of creativity which he uses to constantly blame immigration and foreigners." Actually, the guy who is gonna be PM now, Mark Rutte of the VVD, is 41 and still lives with his mother, and he's supposed to go lead the country. Talk abount incapable...

 

[Defiance]

Yeah he isn't capable, he's right about as capable as his haircut shows him to be

We've had quite a lot of public debating on TV the last few weeks, and I generally found him really weak. Every time an issue was raised he was like "oh that was islam's fault" or "if only we wouldn't have had mass-immigration..." I remember Job Cohen, leader of the PvdA (Labour Party ish) had a really good one when Wilders had calculated the annual costs of foreigners. He was like "well should we go and calculate the annual costs of disabled peaple? Or of Old people perhapse, and throw them out as well?"

The strongest of them all was definitely Femke Halsema, leader of GroenLinks. It's also the only woman among the leaders of the 8 biggest parties. She usually attacked Wilders with very strong arguments, but also with a sense of subtlety, like "One thing we can't deny about Mr. Wilders is the great amount of creativity which he uses to constantly blame immigration and foreigners." Actually, the guy who is gonna be PM now, Mark Rutte of the VVD, is 41 and still lives with his mother, and he's supposed to go lead the country. Talk abount incapable...

Haha seriously, just look at that hair:

Concerning the guy who lives with his mother, the latter argument doesn't really mean that he's incapable of leading the country. He's probably in an incestuous relationship, so let him be.

.

No, but seriously, in most Latin-American countries you'll see that people live with their parents until advanced ages, normally until they get married (ca. 30). It's a different culture/way of living in that sense compared to Europe or NA, but I don't think it's strong-enough reason to bash the guy.

 

[Maxim1110]

No I agree with that, but it's just quite unlikely here. People who do live with their parents at that age are usually HUGE computer geeks or something. But he's still incapable because he is considering a coalition with the PVV and also because he's right-wing. Socialist Party's Emile Roemer said it well: the social system didn't cause the crisis we're in, the banks and liberalism did. If it were my choice, it'd be either Emile Roemer or Femke Halsema (GroenLinks, environmental socialist party) to lead the country. Look them up, at least they look normal

BTW Defiance: nice blog!

 

[Villain]

I really don't have the time to engage in any serious debate, but about the immigration-issue, at least here in Finland the true problem seems to be that the racist dickheads gain all the media attention instead of real constructive critics of immigration. I mean, there are actual immigrant-related issues that should be taken care of (lack of employment opportunities to immigrants, high concentration of immigrants in already poor areas, "white flight", ever-growing crime rates, etc), not to forget the numerous ways traditional Islam conflicts with Western society (child-marriages, "honor murders", censorship, etc).

However, if you as a politician try to voice any of these problems or try to suggest how to fix them you are either labeled as a racist, or worse yet, no people will listen to you in fear of being labeled as racists themselves. This stupid political correctness and oversensitivity to any notion of "racism" is what has given people like Wilders the support of many regular folks who feel their concerns are not heard by mainstream politicians here. I'm quite certain at least some of them would actually rather vote for a sensible critic of immigration - if such an alternative actually existed.

-Villain

 

[Maxim1110]

Indeed, there are problems concerning immigration. The problems we have here seem to be comparable to those in Finland. The point is that in the current elections, every party's program had solutions for some of these issues, but why the hell did Geeert Wilders win then?

That's another reason why I really like Femke Halsema: she's the only woman among the leaders of the eight biggest political parties. She said that politics and political debating seems to be all about who can shout the loudest nowadays. She's a good debater, and actually comes with arguments. I still don't understand that after some public debates on TV, Wilders was voted as the best debater as he was just repeating himself all the time.

My concern is also not with the fact that their are problems concerning immigration or not: there are, that's undeniable. My problem is that Wilders is completely discriminating a complete group of people, based on their religion. He says the Qur'an is a book that preaches war and injustice. Well let's talk about the bible then. Punish homosexuality or cheating by death. Ok, ban those too. So, what's left now? Ah, Jews, they recently attacked a fleet carrying relief goods. Ok, throw 'em out! In the end, we're left with atheists. Not that I would have anything against that, but so many people would be gone, there would be nothing left of the economy.

He points out some of the problems, but the causes he gives are completely rubbish. If it would be for the sake of Islam that many foreigners end up in criminality, why are there Africans among those too? Don't get me wrong: I have nothing against Africans, or to any foreigners, coloured people etc. for that sake, but I'm just pointing out why he's so inconsistent.

And then the punishment he want to give: after a MINOR offense, throw them out. The point is, that if someone has a Dutch passport, you simply can't, that's completely against the constitution. And even if it were allowed: it would be insane. Offenders need to be punished, ok, but by banning someone from the country for a minor offense you completely blow the event out of proportions.

 

[Defiance]

No I agree with that, but it's just quite unlikely here. People who do live with their parents at that age are usually HUGE computer geeks or something. But he's still incapable because he is considering a coalition with the PVV and also because he's right-wing. Socialist Party's Emile Roemer said it well: the social system didn't cause the crisis we're in, the banks and liberalism did. If it were my choice, it'd be either Emile Roemer or Femke Halsema (GroenLinks, environmental socialist party) to lead the country. Look them up, at least they look normal

BTW Defiance: nice blog!

Hey thanks, I'm glad someone has visited it! I'm quite new at this "blogging" thing, so let's see how it goes. I haven't been able to update because I'm at the end of the semester .

It's interesting to see that most people (I'm not saying you guys/gals of the forum) think that immigration is a new issue, but it isn't. People have moved from country to country for centuries. What's the problem now? The excessive population of the planet means that immigration gets totally out of control because instead of a hundred people you get ten thousand. And, due to recent social/political events, Middle-Eastern extremism causes a lot of unreal stigmas that people can't understand, plus culture clashes that may end horribly.

Uzbekistan certainly has a immigration problem right now . It's very sad that nowadays, when we're supposed to be a "better" society, and after WWII, there are countries that are committing ethnic cleansing. Then again, that part of the world has always been in conflict. (The movie with Adam Sandler, Zohan, even if it's a piece of rubbish, does provide some very interesting cultural and political comments.)

On the Football World Cup:

Since North Korea is a dictatorship, most people can't really leave the country. So the North Korean fans that everyone saw in the game are probably hired Chinese actors. Pretty sad to be honest.

 

[Zach.Zhang]

On the Football World Cup:

Since North Korea is a dictatorship, most people can't really leave the country. So the North Korean fans that everyone saw in the game are probably hired Chinese actors. Pretty sad to be honest.

Who told you that ?
I know that North Korean sent many workers to Africa to build statues, monuments and other buildings.
So those wokers were asked to see the game. They couldn't buy tickets by themselves, of course.

 

[Defiance]

Who told you that ?
I know that North Korean sent many workers to Africa to build statues, monuments and other buildings.
So those wokers were asked to see the game. They couldn't buy tickets by themselves, of course.

My dad, but it's also here:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-fans-who-are-really-volunteers-from-china.do

 

[Zach.Zhang]

I still don't believe that.

 

[Defiance]

I normally can't distinguish between Koreans and Chinese, but those guys there seem more Chinese than Korean. And it makes sense, since Kim Jong-Il won't probably let anyone go to the cup. They're actually going to play the cup in NK, but only for their team (d'oh) and not live, so they'll probably edit a lot.

 

[Zach.Zhang]

I normally can't distinguish between Koreans and Chinese, but those guys there seem more Chinese than Korean.

And it makes sense, since Kim Jong-Il won't probably let anyone go to the cup. They're actually going to play the cup in NK, but only for their team (d'oh) and not live, so they'll probably edit a lot.

Look at the logo on their hats.
MOP means Mansudae Overseas Projects.
NK do have overseas business.

http://www.nkeconwatch.com/category...ompanies/mansudae-overseas-development-group/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansudae_Overseas_Projects

I think I know more about North Korea than you.
North Korea is bad, indeed. But your media lies too.

NK don't have to spend extra money to hire "actors".

After all, we Chinese won't dress like NK football fans for money!

 

[Maxim1110]

Defiance: you're absolutely right. I really want to tell Wilders something about the US, a country which is nowadays considered the most powerful or at least one of the most powerful on earth. In the 1800s and early 1900s they also had massive problems with immigration, similar to those we have now. Problems include unemployment, criminality and poor living conditions for immigrants. But where they Muslim? NO! Absolutely not, the main part of them was from Europe, especially from Italy if I'm not mistaken. And also a large part was Chinese, but very few were actually Muslim, but they still caused trouble. So after all, it seems that Islam isn't really the problem. It's simply the fact that many immigrants are poor and get very few chances in western countries, also because they often lack good education. With only few chances to get a good job, many of them end up in criminality, dealing in drugs, stealing, etc.

And there are plenty of immigrants who DO get a job and do actively take part in the society. Among those are also Muslims. But then again: it's only the radical Muslims who are a problem, and sadly they fuck things up for the others. But a large part of the problem can easily be solved, by offering education, employment etc.

 

[Defiance]

Look at the logo on their hats.
MOP means Mansudae Overseas Projects.
NK do have overseas business.

http://www.nkeconwatch.com/category...ompanies/mansudae-overseas-development-group/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansudae_Overseas_Projects

I think I know more about North Korea than you.
North Korea is bad, indeed. But your media lies too.

NK don't have to spend extra money to hire "actors".

After all, we Chinese won't dress like NK football fans for money!

I simply meant that Chinese, Koreans and Japanese have different physical traits. I can distinguish between a Chinese and Japanese, but not so much between a Chinese and a Korean.

I can just go and order some hats with the logo, that means nothing.

The thing is that, considering the media coverage in China, it's bot about who lies or not (because all media lies), but who has access to more information. I have access to every web on the net, but Chinese people don't, so that makes a big difference.

I don't mean to be offensive, but considering the economic crisis and lack of development in most of rural China, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore some DPRK hats. After all, they probably need the money.

Defiance: you're absolutely right. I really want to tell Wilders something about the US, a country which is nowadays considered the most powerful or at least one of the most powerful on earth. In the 1800s and early 1900s they also had massive problems with immigration, similar to those we have now. Problems include unemployment, criminality and poor living conditions for immigrants. But where they Muslim? NO! Absolutely not, the main part of them was from Europe, especially from Italy if I'm not mistaken. And also a large part was Chinese, but very few were actually Muslim, but they still caused trouble. So after all, it seems that Islam isn't really the problem. It's simply the fact that many immigrants are poor and get very few chances in western countries, also because they often lack good education. With only few chances to get a good job, many of them end up in criminality, dealing in drugs, stealing, etc.

And there are plenty of immigrants who DO get a job and do actively take part in the society. Among those are also Muslims. But then again: it's only the radical Muslims who are a problem, and sadly they fuck things up for the others. But a large part of the problem can easily be solved, by offering education, employment etc.

Yes, it's a matter of organisation and over-population. And I guess stereo-types too, the media doesn't always portray Middle-Eastern people as…people, but terrorists. When you read "Persepolis" you get to see a lot of the issues that affect your average person there.

The best way to solve the world's problems is through education.

 

[Zach.Zhang]

I simply meant that Chinese, Koreans and Japanese have different physical traits. I can distinguish between a Chinese and Japanese, but not so much between a Chinese and a Korean.

I can just go and order some hats with the logo, that means nothing.

The thing is that, considering the media coverage in China, it's bot about who lies or not (because all media lies), but who has access to more information. I have access to every web on the net, but Chinese people don't, so that makes a big difference.

I don't mean to be offensive, but considering the economic crisis and lack of development in most of rural China, I wouldn't be surprised if they wore some DPRK hats. After all, they probably need the money.

Your sense about distinguishing Chinese from Japanese/Korean is unreliable.

Since neither of us has enough proof or evidence, I will not talk about this "hired fans" thing any more.

One thing I have to tell you is that: I can easily get access to YouTube, Twitter and Facebook (although they are banned in China) by using some "special" proxy softwares. And we won't get jailed for using proxy softwares.

And I do have a twitter account : http://twitter.com/ZachIcipher

So, accessing to "every web" on the net is not very difficult. The biggest difficulty for me and other Chinese is that English is not our mother tongue and most webs use English. That limits us to get more information.

 

[Defiance]

Your sense about distinguishing Chinese from Japanese/Korean is unreliable.

Since neither of us has enough proof or evidence, I will not talk about this "hired fans" thing any more.

One thing I have to tell you is that: I can easily get access to YouTube, Twitter and Facebook (although they are banned in China) by using some "special" proxy softwares. And we won't get jailed for using proxy softwares.

And I do have a twitter account : http://twitter.com/ZachIcipher

So, accessing to "every web" on the net is not very difficult. The biggest difficulty for me and other Chinese is that English is not our mother tongue and most webs use English. That limits us to get more information.

Well I'm glad you're not like most of the rest of the population and have access to sites like YouTube. What do you think of what happened at Tiananmen Square? There're some pretty strong videos on YouTube…, especially the one when the reporter from the BBC says "a man next has just being shot in the head" .

I was in the car and listening to the radio, and they said that the DPRK admitted that they paid some actors to go and cheer for their team.

 

[Maxim1110]

Yes, it's a matter of organisation and over-population. And I guess stereo-types too, the media doesn't always portray Middle-Eastern people as…people, but terrorists. When you read "Persepolis" you get to see a lot of the issues that affect your average person there.

The best way to solve the world's problems is through education.

That's absolutely right. If people get offered a chance for a good education and employment afterwards, most of them will obviously do that and not go into criminality or anything, no matter if they're christian, muslim, jewish, or whatever religion.

My experience is also that immigrants who get offered the chance for a good education usually work harder for it than natives do here in The Netherlands.

 

[Defiance]

^ Yeah, same here. I'd say Nicaraguan immigrants work a lot harder than your average Costa Rica, but the latter get paid more. Immigrants usually have the jobs no one else wants, such as cleaning houses. Here in CR most of the coffee (or what's left of it) is picked up by Nicaraguans.

 

[Maxim1110]

^ Yeah, same here. I'd say Nicaraguan immigrants work a lot harder than your average Costa Rica, but the latter get paid more. Immigrants usually have the jobs no one else wants, such as cleaning houses. Here in CR most of the coffee (or what's left of it) is picked up by Nicaraguans.

Yeah, exactly the same happens here. Most of the people who clean houses etc. are from Turkey and some also from African countries.

In agriculture, it's mostly Eastern Europeans, especially Polish. I estimate that around 90% of all strawberries and asparagusses is picked by Poles. Companies hire them because they're cheaper than Dutchmen, and often because many Dutchmen say this is "too low" for them and just refuse to do it. And they keep complaining about the unemployment and foreigners taking all their jobs... Yeah right.

 

[Naglfar]

But your media lies too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...o-cheer-for-North-Korea-during-World-Cup.html

"So far, a group of around 1,000 Chinese fans, including a group of actors and musicians who have been sent to cheer China in previous World Cup tournaments, will attend the games against Brazil and Portugal to cheer on their North Korean cousins, according to Xinhua, the government-run news agency."

http://www.vancouversun.com/enterta...an+team+World+South+Africa/3026611/story.html

A bit more detailed from the Vancouver Sun.

"In an effort to fill the empty seats, the Beijing office of the North Korean Sports Committee has begun to give tickets to Chinese fans.

So far, a group of about 1,000 Chinese fans -- including actors and musicians -- have been rounded up to attend the games against Brazil and Portugal, according to Xinhua, the Chinese government-run news agency."

So far I can't find that Xinhua report, though. So it's one of two things: there's a Xinhua report that exists that is the source of the 1,000 paid Chinese fans claim, or some normally credible news source made up the report and now every news outlet cites it in spite of it being a fantasy.

Generally speaking, Western news sources are a clusterfuck of news corporations. News organizations that regularly manipulate the news, such as Fox and the New York Post, are the exception rather than the rule.