Political discussions and other rants about useless things like culture

Sorry for the double post, i only read the last two posts now.
It amazes me that someone like Sarah Palin has as much media coverage as she does - she isn't anything, not even a governor anymore, just some woman. Its true she was the Vice Presidential nominee, but are any other former nominees, from any party, receiving even similar exposure? Do they even know what Twitter is? Furthermore, would they spew out misinformation to such a laughable degree all the while holding steadfast that it is fact? I'm quite sore about the medical insurance issue as it is one that hits very close to mine own heart and my family. That being said, it is simply unbelievable the tactics being used, and that people are buying it! This coming from a woman who has now has no political seat whatsoever! Its unprecedented, shameful, and I have a hard time accepting such a reality. It certainly has inspired me to write my responses as I have lately. It hasn't hit home so much before how fucked up, pardon the crudeness, things happen to be right now. Hence why I wouldn't mind leaving.

Thanks again to those that read. Unless its a term paper, I am always grateful for those that take in what I have to say, regardless of your personal position on the matter.
I don't really follow the american news, so i would very much appreciate it if you could fill me in on this medical insurance issue, if you're not bored or busy of course.
Also i'd like you to know that i do read even the longest posts. It might take me a while, but i do. And i don't grade. :p

Naglfar said:
To be honest, I think the political discourse in any country goes down to the lowest common denominator. People tell you it's low in the US......because of the expectation that politics is going to be any less disgusting than in the US
Politics are dirty everywhere.
 
To be honest, i don't understand exactly what you mean or where that impression of yours is coming from. I'd very much appreciate it if you could expand on it, because i'm afraid i might be forming the wrong idea (so excuse the following rant if i understood things wrong).
The thing that baffles me the most is "Greece's efforts to not join" (am i reading this correctly?). We joined decades ago, in fact we were one of the original 12 members (12 stars on the flag, now the members are 27). Nobody forces us to be a member, we are one willingly. Unless you're talking about a measly but loud 5% of communists that we have and who wish that we left NATO and the Union and cloned Marx and Stalin and lived happily ever after in seclusion, everyone else is fine with it.
Of course there's whining about some stuff, but the key to understanding the situation here is that the EU is not like the US. It is formed by individual countries that of course have to abide to the common rules, but also want and should keep their individuality. You should also take into account that it's much harder to change laws and structures in countries that came together 20 years ago, as opposed to states who joined forces 200 years ago. Add to the mix the strong-headedness and rebellious nature of the greek people, and you will see why a free and individual country who is an equal(?) member of a union might want to have a say in things, instead of following directions blindly.
However, what i meant with my previous post that you quoted, was merely based on the size of the country and the fact that the world is not very interested in it, unless something major happens. Much like you don't hear a lot about Tuvalu in the news unless it drowns.

Essentially I was referring to the 5% of communists you are talking about. I read an article a while ago (and don't have the source, sorry) that talked about Greeks having problems with NATO, and outside influence, and being insular and isolated. That is essentially what you are describing, it seems.

Its good to hear that the majority doesn't hold such an opinion because I am of the belief that said unions are beneficial (though I can understand them not wanting to join NATO).

I really need to do some research into the EU, so forgive my ignorance. I don't understand the inequity: by that I mean I don't understand why Greece wouldn't have as much a say as other more politically vogue countries? There is a lot I'm realizing I don't know about.

Sorry for the double post, i only read the last two posts now.

I don't really follow the american news, so i would very much appreciate it if you could fill me in on this medical insurance issue, if you're not bored or busy of course.
Also i'd like you to know that i do read even the longest posts. It might take me a while, but i do. And i don't grade. :p

The healthcare issue is close to my heart because it is, and has been, affecting my mother for quite a while now. Though I plan on making this generally factual, I guarantee this won't be finished without a bit of my opinion, which is certainly liberal. I'll do my best to describe what is going on.

Currently in the United States, healthcare is run by a handful of conglomerate private countries. Companies and individuals pay these companies money directly. The insurance companies take the money and do several things with it. They do pay doctors, surgeons, professionals etc but its based on a defined amount. Basically, the insurance companies get together, decide "X" surgery is worth $40000 so they pay the surgeon something around that amount (it usually is under, though not by a lot, but it does vary to my understanding). This is paid using the money given to the insurance company by the customers. Part of the problem is that the customers money also goes to lobbyists (which are people sent to influence the decisions of politicians and government officials), pays the healthcare companies often ridiculous salaries, and goes all sorts of places that aren't the doctors or the hospitals that actually perform the procedure.

The other part of the problem is that the insurance companies often don't approve many claims and will refuse to pay out and will deny care to its customers. If its a life-or-death operation the individual often will have to pay out of pocket resulting in crippling debt, the inability to be insured in the future, and no guarantee that the ailment has been treated completely (especially in cases such as cancer).

The third problem is that if an individual tries to acquire it, often times its very expensive. The government provides help for the old (62 years and older) and the extremely poor (usually food stamp and welfare recipients) but there are many cases that people that own their own business or are not insured by the company they work for cannot afford to purchase their own policy and cannot pay the monthly premiums. Thusly we go back to problem two - life or death situations result in crippling debt and the impossibility of being insured in the future.

The reform going on right now is partially there, but not all they way. This is more speculation from here on, the above is fact as I know it to be true. The issue is giving government control of healthcare, socialized healthcare, which is all over the world already. The first step will be giving universal coverage to everyone in the country, or at least citizens. The second step will be to eliminate the middle men. Healthcare would be less expensive if the money wasn't so inequitably distributed. Ideally (though this is not a likelihood) there would be a 1 to 1 ratio where the citizen would pay out of his/her wages directly to the government. The government would then pay directly the hospital and/or doctors. Another possibility is that the corporations would still exist but they would be contracted by the government, and the citizen would pay the government who would then pay the corporation to handle the claims.

There are several variations on how the reform should take place, what should happen, all that stuff. If you're interested I'll delve further later.

The problem now is just getting the issue on the table. Many less educated individuals who lack understanding of the situation thinks government-run healthcare is akin to Communism which is of course, totally incorrect. The town hall meetings have been a disgrace, and I'm ashamed American people could be so misinformed, classless and clueless as to how things should actually be. Generally speaking they don't care to understand, they just "don't want no damn commie pinkos takin' there monies and givin' it to the freeloadin'" (not an actual quote). Many of these people have been fortunate enough to not having something so debilitating that they have not seen the generally greedy and unconcerned side of the business.

It needs to change regardless, if nothing else but to ensure no one can be denied healthcare.

I do understand they are businesses and need to make a profit. That's the problem. The doctors, hospitals, nurses and all those that actually care for, help, and treat the individuals deserve to make plenty of profit, and should be payed accordingly. It is inequitable. That's not to say that doctors can't or don't make sizable amounts of money, I know they do, but my personal opinion is that I'd much rather pay the doctors as close to directly as possible. By that I mean that I'd just rather pay the government over the course of my life as a worker, and then have that money go directly to the professionals/facilities rather than lining the pockets of corporate fools, politicians, and others that stand only to make money.

I'm sure I left out a chunk here or there. I'm certainly open to debate and correction, provided it is civil and it can be substantiated. Not right now, but at some point in the future, I'll give some links to articles I've read about the situation, if anyone is curious.

Thanks Siren :p. I know its gotta be tough, I have to remind myself that English is not your first language and I tend to write pretty verbose, English major and all, I enjoy flexing my vocabulary skills. If you have any more questions or anything, please ask.
 
Politics are dirty everywhere.

Yes, next year CR will have it's presidential elections. Sadly enough, I don't think I'll vote. Why is it sad? Because we're one of the few (if not only) countries in Latin-America in which there aren't any guys with guns watching you vote and stuff (I think Panamá too, but I'm not sure). This is obviously due to us being a "peaceful" country and one without an army.
And I won't vote because all of the candidates are horrible. There used to be an OK guy (Ottón Solís), but he lost the last presidential election, and so his deputies boycotted all the projects that were proposed. The other guys, well there's Otto Guevara who is the view of privatising everything. So no good.
Finally, there's Laura Chinchilla, the first major female presidential candidate in the history of the country. She's basically a clone of current president Oscar Arias (who, as a president, did nothing but approve the CAFTA/TLC. Thank you Oscar! *sarcasm*), and, not being chauvinistic here, most people will vote for her because she's a woman and so "will do something different".

If she does the same as Oscar Arias, I'm moving to either Canada or some European country. CR has, sadly enough, become too unsafe for my taste. In a way it's funny, because people here are so stupid/close-minded that they see a metal-head with an awesome DT shirt (e.g. me), and they think that he is the one who is going to rob them. Hehehe so that guy kind of has an advantage, I've never been robbed (only in Spain :err:), but almost everyone that I know has been, at least once. That's why I wear black shirts, despite the scorching sun.

Essentially I was referring to the 5% of communists you are talking about. I read an article a while ago (and don't have the source, sorry) that talked about Greeks having problems with NATO, and outside influence, and being insular and isolated. That is essentially what you are describing, it seems.

Its good to hear that the majority doesn't hold such an opinion because I am of the belief that said unions are beneficial (though I can understand them not wanting to join NATO).

I really need to do some research into the EU, so forgive my ignorance. I don't understand the inequity: by that I mean I don't understand why Greece wouldn't have as much a say as other more politically vogue countries? There is a lot I'm realizing I don't know about.



The healthcare issue is close to my heart because it is, and has been, affecting my mother for quite a while now. Though I plan on making this generally factual, I guarantee this won't be finished without a bit of my opinion, which is certainly liberal. I'll do my best to describe what is going on.

Currently in the United States, healthcare is run by a handful of conglomerate private countries. Companies and individuals pay these companies money directly. The insurance companies take the money and do several things with it. They do pay doctors, surgeons, professionals etc but its based on a defined amount. Basically, the insurance companies get together, decide "X" surgery is worth $40000 so they pay the surgeon something around that amount (it usually is under, though not by a lot, but it does vary to my understanding). This is paid using the money given to the insurance company by the customers. Part of the problem is that the customers money also goes to lobbyists (which are people sent to influence the decisions of politicians and government officials), pays the healthcare companies often ridiculous salaries, and goes all sorts of places that aren't the doctors or the hospitals that actually perform the procedure.

The other part of the problem is that the insurance companies often don't approve many claims and will refuse to pay out and will deny care to its customers. If its a life-or-death operation the individual often will have to pay out of pocket resulting in crippling debt, the inability to be insured in the future, and no guarantee that the ailment has been treated completely (especially in cases such as cancer).

The third problem is that if an individual tries to acquire it, often times its very expensive. The government provides help for the old (62 years and older) and the extremely poor (usually food stamp and welfare recipients) but there are many cases that people that own their own business or are not insured by the company they work for cannot afford to purchase their own policy and cannot pay the monthly premiums. Thusly we go back to problem two - life or death situations result in crippling debt and the impossibility of being insured in the future.

The reform going on right now is partially there, but not all they way. This is more speculation from here on, the above is fact as I know it to be true. The issue is giving government control of healthcare, socialized healthcare, which is all over the world already. The first step will be giving universal coverage to everyone in the country, or at least citizens. The second step will be to eliminate the middle men. Healthcare would be less expensive if the money wasn't so inequitably distributed. Ideally (though this is not a likelihood) there would be a 1 to 1 ratio where the citizen would pay out of his/her wages directly to the government. The government would then pay directly the hospital and/or doctors. Another possibility is that the corporations would still exist but they would be contracted by the government, and the citizen would pay the government who would then pay the corporation to handle the claims.

There are several variations on how the reform should take place, what should happen, all that stuff. If you're interested I'll delve further later.

The problem now is just getting the issue on the table. Many less educated individuals who lack understanding of the situation thinks government-run healthcare is akin to Communism which is of course, totally incorrect. The town hall meetings have been a disgrace, and I'm ashamed American people could be so misinformed, classless and clueless as to how things should actually be. Generally speaking they don't care to understand, they just "don't want no damn commie pinkos takin' there monies and givin' it to the freeloadin'" (not an actual quote). Many of these people have been fortunate enough to not having something so debilitating that they have not seen the generally greedy and unconcerned side of the business.

It needs to change regardless, if nothing else but to ensure no one can be denied healthcare.

I do understand they are businesses and need to make a profit. That's the problem. The doctors, hospitals, nurses and all those that actually care for, help, and treat the individuals deserve to make plenty of profit, and should be payed accordingly. It is inequitable. That's not to say that doctors can't or don't make sizable amounts of money, I know they do, but my personal opinion is that I'd much rather pay the doctors as close to directly as possible. By that I mean that I'd just rather pay the government over the course of my life as a worker, and then have that money go directly to the professionals/facilities rather than lining the pockets of corporate fools, politicians, and others that stand only to make money.

I'm sure I left out a chunk here or there. I'm certainly open to debate and correction, provided it is civil and it can be substantiated. Not right now, but at some point in the future, I'll give some links to articles I've read about the situation, if anyone is curious.

Thanks Siren :p. I know its gotta be tough, I have to remind myself that English is not your first language and I tend to write pretty verbose, English major and all, I enjoy flexing my vocabulary skills. If you have any more questions or anything, please ask.

Yes, just like Chuck! :cry:

I don't know to what extent Michael Moore's movie "Sicko" is true, but it does say a lot of things that are true of the US Healthcare System. As I see it, if you don't have money for the operation/insurance, you'll die. I don't know if it's true, but there was a highly emotive part in the movie in which some gringos go to Cuba. There they get for free all the things they would have to pay for a lot in the US (i.e. the asthma "pump", I don't know what it's called there).

Costa Rica is one place above the US in the world list of beast healthcare systems (France being the first), CR is 38 and US 39. So I can't imagine how bad is it, because here in the Social Security System (available to everyone, even non-Costa Ricans without any ID of some sort) you have to wait 6 month to get an appointment for an operation, and wait between 2-4 years to get the operation. The system has basically collapsed.

On the other hand, it's free, and we get all sorts of excellent medicines (generic ones, but as good as the original ones), and excellent attention in case of accidents (which are quite frequent here, we're the 3rd in the world to have car accidents). E.g., I get my insulin for free, I just present the papers my doctor gave me, and I'll have the biles next day :) . I guess I'd have to pay for those in the US, wouldn't I?
 
Costa Rica is one place above the US in the world list of beast healthcare systems (France being the first), CR is 38 and US 39. So I can't imagine how bad is it, because here in the Social Security System (available to everyone, even non-Costa Ricans without any ID of some sort) you have to wait 6 month to get an appointment for an operation, and wait between 2-4 years to get the operation. The system has basically collapsed.

It's because the American system is not accessible. Waiting 2-4 years for surgery is better than never getting it at all because you can't afford it. The availability of top care in the US is not an issue; what's an issue is that it throws you into ruinous debt unless you're moderately wealthy. What people are worried about is that if the healthcare is made more accessible, it will deteriorate in quality. What most people don't get here in the US, and it's because political leaders are criminals (in both parties, because there are democrats that fall in this category), is that health care costs are pretty inflated because of the way insurance and health care are administered, not because of the actual cost of caring for a sick person. People think keeping medicine a business will keep it high quality, which is partly true. But keeping sick people from being cared for because you want to keep it a business raises the costs, because it means insurance costs much more and the care itself costs more.

It's a pretty simple problem. Anyone with half a brain knows the American health care system is idiotic. We have the best doctors and facilities in the world, and the widest availability (in theory). But the system itself is being poached by insurance companies and people who think that making health care available to everyone means we'd have to ration health care (as if we didn't have enough doctors or something).
 
It's because the American system is not accessible. Waiting 2-4 years for surgery is better than never getting it at all because you can't afford it. The availability of top care in the US is not an issue; what's an issue is that it throws you into ruinous debt unless you're moderately wealthy. What people are worried about is that if the healthcare is made more accessible, it will deteriorate in quality. What most people don't get here in the US, and it's because political leaders are criminals (in both parties, because there are democrats that fall in this category), is that health care costs are pretty inflated because of the way insurance and health care are administered, not because of the actual cost of caring for a sick person. People think keeping medicine a business will keep it high quality, which is partly true. But keeping sick people from being cared for because you want to keep it a business raises the costs, because it means insurance costs much more and the care itself costs more.

It's a pretty simple problem. Anyone with half a brain knows the American health care system is idiotic. We have the best doctors and facilities in the world, and the widest availability (in theory). But the system itself is being poached by insurance companies and people who think that making health care available to everyone means we'd have to ration health care (as if we didn't have enough doctors or something).

The problem here is that even if you think it's good that we get the operation even after 4 years, most people would be dead by that time.

My mother had a major surgery last year, and if hadn't gone to a private hospital she would have died, for sure. It was an expensive operation, but well, she's still here :) .

I guess that's the problem in the US, most people can't afford the operation.

And there's a debate about this right now, but I'm not following it that much. From what I read, thing's are going to stay the same for you guys :( .

There were also some guys talking about that in the last BizWeekly podcast of the BBC.

And do tell me, to what extent is Michael Moore's movie "Sicko" true? Everything seems so far-fetched that I don't know if I should believe everything or what.
 
I would like to pose a question. I will be speaking from a subjective place, and I expect subjective answers. I am seeking worldly perspective from all you for'ners. I am an American, if you couldn't tell.

I am generally of the opinion that Americans, and people all throughout the world, are not as dumb as we sometimes think. I believe that the vast majority of people have the ability to understand things if exposed to them, but we are all ignorant of most things. Many people, through media, are kept ignorant, and that ignorance is manipulated through media. But I honestly think that people can understand truth when exposed to it.

I really feel that the issue, in a very 1984 fashion, comes down to media control. I just read an article today about one of the last late-term abortion doctors in America; it was on a pretty even keel, but the author couldn't stop using the slanted dichotomy of 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice', or using imaginary terms like 'partial birth abortion.' I was a teenager when the American media started parroting the WMD line about Iraq. I kept hearing quickly-disappearing snippets about corrupt PMCs, civil rights violations, and the millions of other sins of the Bush administration, but all from alternative media. The press, the 'Guardians of Democracy', gave that fucker a free pass.

And everyone let it go, because they were scared. Granted, they were kept scared, but that's not entirely the fault of the American people.

Now, on healthcare, the press blindly parrots phrases like 'death panel' without actually investigating the claims. (Disgustingly, the idea that was falsely represented as a death panel was to allow doctors to bill for late life counseling sessions with patients to determine if the stress of treatment and recovery was something that they wanted to so late in life. Presently, since doctors have no time, and cannot bill for such a session, they just treat like fucking crazy and make sure that grandmothers last days are spent in misery. It was actually a very generous, humanitarian reform.) The press continues to report on the handful of heroic conservative who have come out to fight the grim spectre of socialism, as though they were a meaningful minority.

Popular entertainment and political pundits continue to marginalize women, minorities and homesexuals; Lou Dobbs gets to be an ignorant bigot daily on CNN, and we continue to live in a silly world built by advertising. Every last woman in this country is too fat, every dick is too small, every house is too run-down, and it's all so dirty and we can't spend enough to be good people. God is very angry, and he needs our money very, very much. Our 'immigrant cultures' are all be subsumed by the enormous monster that is popular cultural, where there are no traditions and no alternative modes of thought.

But I think that every last person in this nation has the capacity to find truth, beauty, love for themselves, and understanding for all the other people of this world. But, I don't really see that today.

So, if you're still reading, is this situation unique to America? Does anyone else find this such a huge problem in their country, or is media somewhere in the background? Would anyone from America (TM) like to disagree?
 
The media here in Germany is decent enough imo. Sadly the daily newspaper with the highest circulation is a low-quality tabloid (the "Bild"), but we have several high quality dailies as well like the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
We also have high quality weekly political magazines like the Stern or the Focus and especially Der Spiegel which is one of the highest quality magazines in the world (guess who has a subscription :p). All of those are not affiliated with parties, some are very slightly leaning towards left or right, but not so much that they would bend the truth in their articles.
Also on television we have good reliable news and political debates, especially on the two stations (ARD, ZDF) that are run by a monthly fee every owner of a TV set has to pay.

What I think is a bigger problem here in Germany is that the media, and sadly especially the Bild-Zeitung which does not belong to the high quality sector, but is a low-quality, pictureheavy, often biased, sometimes in one, sometimes in the other direction leaning tabloid, but with about 11,49 Mio readers, which is 14% of our population, has a big influence on the politicians and what they do. So if the Bild writes that a politician did something horribly wrong and makes a big fuzz about it, he will immediately apologize and do everything different the next day, even if he was right.
Of course, luckily, it sometimes works the other around as well, that the media changes a bad direction a politician is going in to a better one by reporting about it.



Nice to see, that this thread goes well.
 
The media here in Germany is decent enough imo. Sadly the daily newspaper with the highest circulation is a low-quality tabloid (the "Bild"), but we have several high quality dailies as well like the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
We also have high quality weekly political magazines like the Stern or the Focus and especially Der Spiegel which is one of the highest quality magazines in the world (guess who has a subscription :p). All of those are not affiliated with parties, some are very slightly leaning towards left or right, but not so much that they would bend the truth in their articles.
Also on television we have good reliable news and political debates, especially on the two stations (ARD, ZDF) that are run by a monthly fee every owner of a TV set has to pay.

What I think is a bigger problem here in Germany is that the media, and sadly especially the Bild-Zeitung which does not belong to the high quality sector, but is a low-quality, pictureheavy, often biased, sometimes in one, sometimes in the other direction leaning tabloid, but with about 11,49 Mio readers, which is 14% of our population, has a big influence on the politicians and what they do. So if the Bild writes that a politician did something horribly wrong and makes a big fuzz about it, he will immediately apologize and do everything different the next day, even if he was right.
Of course, luckily, it sometimes works the other around as well, that the media changes a bad direction a politician is going in to a better one by reporting about it.



Nice to see, that this thread goes well.

Indeed, the thread is doing quite well :) .

Here in Costa Rica every major newspaper is biased. La Nación (The Nation), which has one of the highest circulation and owns a bunch of magazines, is notable for flaming some state institutions, in a totally biased way. It's also noted for being in favour of certain political parties (i.e. Oscar Arias's, he probably owns some shares I'm sure).

Then we have, alas! "La Teja" (der Dachziegel, the Tile. The thing is that here "a teja" is 100 colones (€0.12, $0.17), and the paper costs that. They give away €120/ $170 dollars every day, but that's not the only reason it sells a lot. If you turn to the back of the paper you would see pictures of almost naked (and usually horrible (IMO)) women. For example, see this cover:

IMG_9304.JPG


And as with most tabloid papers, you get news about killings, accidents, women, sex, chauvinism, etc., all in striking red and yellow colours.

The one of most circulation, just as in Germany, and dare I say, every country in the world, is "La Extra". For example, take a look at this:

La Extra

Reads: WIFE CAUGHT HIM RAPING DOG!!!

:rolleyes: :lol:

There are other more serious, independent newspapers like Semanario Universidad and La República. The latter is more related to finances, but it's still very good. Semanario Universidad is a totally independent newspaper, it's published by the University of Costa Rica. It usually contains a lot of controversial topics not covered by the other newspapers.

There's also The Tico Times, which is a newspaper in English. It's quite good, i don't think it's that biased actually.

Bye! :wave:
 
i hope religion isnt out of the range in this thread......If god forgives everyone for everything, does that mean i'll be forgiven and go to heaven for being a non- believer? I hear christians say that god forgives EVERYTHING although the bible clearly states there are sins that are UNFORGIVABLE. Make up your mind, you cant tell me i'm going to go to hell for not believing then when i question you about your sins(everyone sins, its impossible to live a normal functional human life without sinning, logical people should be able to figure this out) you get all "God forgives" on me. I have no problem being told im Dammed to eternal hellfire for not believing, BUT i do have a problem with you saying your sins go un-punished only because you believe, since the bible clearly states otherwise, in fact the bible states that believers are at higher risk for punishment, since they neglect gods rule in the process of sinning. Since i do no believe in gods rule, i cannot neglect it. therefor if a christian sins, its actually worse.........thoughts?
 
If there is a god, I have trouble believing that he's going to kick you out of his country club because you did not believe a story which is, frankly, hard to believe. It's silly, and I have to think that an all powerful being would be a better person than I, and I can forgive people's minds so long as their actions are good. If you live here, don't harm his children, and in fact engage in positive relationships with them, I'm sure he'll say thanks when (if) you meet each other.

I don't have a problem with Christianity, and I generally don't have a problem with Christians in groups of one (most people that I know are Christian, and it just never comes up). But the problem, and the source of the philosophical question that you pose, is that apart from being a personal matter of faith, the word "Christianity" also refers to a loose organization of people. It's part political party, part tribe, and part weapon. Non-believers cannot be forgiven, because non-believers are Them. Anything which is unacceptable to the group (standards based more on the culture of the day than the religion's handbook), cannot be forgiven, because you are the enemy of a tribe. The religion, which should be (and often is) a beautiful matter of personal faith, is rather wielded as a clarion to mobilize the entire tribe against something with which a member does not agree.

Would you believe that there is actually such a thing as illegal speech in America, despite the existence of our First Amendment? Why can't two consenting adults marry in most of my country if they don't have opposite parts? Why do we condemn women for behavior that we celebrate in men (i.e., screwing like there's no tomorrow)? These are all obnoxious positions, but they are inevitable when they offend one influential person, and that person is able to manipulate the whip of the culture, religion, and change a thousand minds at once. There is a great deal of power and safety in going along with it, regardless of one's personal beliefs.

The only reason anyone says that non-believers will die unforgiven is because you are the enemy. You may be a decent person, but if you cannot be brought to bear against the enemies of the whole of your culture, you are that enemy. So, I would generally ignore anyone who implores you to believe something that you don't in your heart. There's no reason to think one way or another, and the cultural argument towards belief is really very self-interested.

What do you think? That's all that matters, and I hope that I don't like I'm anti-religion. I'm all for personal religion, and even religious culture, but as Thomas Jefferson said: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny imposed upon the mind of man."
 
wow, words cannot express how much i agree with everything you just said. Yeah, your right, christianity, along with other religions, are mostly modernized, and turned around these days, even though the basic idea is already hard to catch onto for a logical thinking person (in my opinion) they have to make it harder by doing all this condemning and what not.
 
they have to make it harder by doing all this condemning and what not.

And that condemnation defines the disjunct between the religion in theoretical or personal terms and the religion on a large scale. The book isn't very condemning, and most of the practitioners are pretty reasonable, awesome people (in my experience). It's just that you can't counsel or guide people on personal issues in groups. You can only bluntly control them with lies. Hence, lowly mob behavior, such as ignorant condemnation, takes over in a religion which is supposedly based on the best parts of humanity.
 
agreed once again. And oh wow, how the christians in my area are attacking obama......im not really a supporter but give the dude a break.
 
I think the true, clear Religion Does not really exist. What exists are people which have about the same Idea of what they believe in, may it be that they are told by parents or missioners or whatever.
But even in that case it´s just about the same Idea ... believs will never match 100 % because we are all individual people thinking about different stuff.

Anytime you join a religious group, whiches world view approximate matches yours, you will either differ in some points (what ever they may be) and recocgnize the difference or totally submit to the religion ( I prefer first option, because 1000 thousand people with the same meaning would be boring, lack in discussing and thinking while trying to resist anotherones world view, and maybe because also god wanted to create diversity of life, to come up with an argument for a real godbelieving christian).


By the way I once heard of a verse in the bible where it said that anybody who isn´t ... ( many bad attributes) and didn´t do ( many bad things ) and helped and showed mercy and stuff would come in heaven, which then just ment that you won´t find neither a woman nor a man who isn´t good in at least one of this points.


I For myselve am agnostic, this stuff doesn´t really mutch matter as long as you don´t think about ... and wehen you think about you can´t get the right answer ...... though I believe in a " metaphysical being" .... it might be god, and I could think about if "god" is just a name I don´t like, and names of other languages would also fit, but I know that I doesn´t have a big influence as long as the "being" or whatever or nothing is part of my world view.

The bible has been writen by many kinds of people ... may they be told anything by god or not, what they write is their word, not gods. Despite that I´m sure there isn´t a book in which you find more antagonisms, so you´ll find anything and you can interpret anything you want.
 
For the purpose of this (derailed) thread, i would like to think of forgiveness as feta cheese in a greek restaurant. If you ask for it, you're most likely getting some. If you don't ask for it, there's still a chance you're getting some with your greek salad, if you are a good boy. However, if you explicitly said to the waiter when he asked you that you don't want any feta cheese with your greek salad, you sure as hell won't be getting any. Furthermore, if you walk in the restaurant and spit on the owner's face and tell him how much he and his restaurant sucks, you can expect to be kicked out. On the other hand, if you don't care about greek food and/or dislike it, why be concerned whether you'll be getting any feta cheese or not in the first place?

That said, i will repeat myself once again and state that there are imbeciles and fanatics everywhere. Generalisations are wrong, no matter which side they come from.
For the rest, stizzleomnibus made some very good points.
 
Wait, you have an option of not getting feta cheese in Greek restaurants? I mean, I could see that being true in most of the world, but I figure it goes without saying in Greece that you're going to eat that cheese, and you're going to like it. Because that's what it means to be Greek.

Other than that, I have no idea what you said. I'm American. You should respect that not everyone is going to understand your bizarre third world customs. Can you rephrase your point as an apple pie analogy? (Kidding!)

At any rate, I suppose it comes down to being a decent human being. If you're kind enough to the waiter, and don't accept his cheese, you've still engaged in meaningful commerce, even if you don't share each other's tastes. I'm sure that management will be happy to have you back. They'll probably even let you visit them in the great Greek restaurant in the sky, or whatever it is.
 
Hahaha. :p I'm afraid i couldn't rephrase it with apple pie, because apple pie is a devil thing.

Wait, you have an option of not getting feta cheese in Greek restaurants? I mean, I could see that being true in most of the world, but I figure it goes without saying in Greece that you're going to eat that cheese, and you're going to like it. Because that's what it means to be Greek.
That is true if you're a tourist. I rarely ever order feta in Greece, because -surprise surprise- i can have it at home anytime. Except for that yummy fried one in a particular restaurant.
Would you be excited to find out that there are greek people who don't like cheese? I always act shocked and call them heathens. :p
 
Zelaya is back in Honduras. I hope there won't be anyone killed in the protests or something. It's pathetic to see how the Hondurans idolize him, he's nothing but a pathetic dog of Cháves, just like the stupider Ortega in Nicaragua.

Now how will Zelaya get out? Perhaps as a corpse? :p