Postmodernism

Thanks for the insight. It seems quite odd that you spend a lot of time on this forum trying to prove your points to other people as if you take the propositions you advance as being true, but then you say that there is no such thing as objective truth. All truth is subjective? (whatever that is supposed to mean).


who ever said subjective truths weren't valuable? as Moogle is saying, technically we can never assume the subjective truths we have are on point with what would be Truth if it could by some agent be objectively known. So subjective truths are all we really have, which means surely as concerns of truth go, they're the most valuable thing we, as epistemically limited agents, can hope for. Seems like a point worth spending time on to me.

'whatever that is supposed to mean'? you say that as if you don't see the repurcussions.

It would be impossible for you to be a Christian and a respectable man at the same time if you accepted that your subjective truth about Jesus could be a lie employed by Satanic forces set forth to lead people astray by an appealing doctrine which is ultimately false or even strategically sinful, rather than that you have any kind of assurance that what you believe was ever based on any objective truth. The assertion that our epistemic limits mean you cannot know you are not deceived mean you have no more reason to accept anything Jesus ever supposedly said as objectively true to some actual 'Christ'/'God' than you do for any other self-proclaimed prophet or messiah through prehistory to modernity, or even of me and my right now saying 'the world is objectively made of chocolate, planet earth is just a perception, I have seen what no one else has seen.' I could be fucked in the head and be saying that sincerely because its true to me, but of course I have no better access to objectivity (and thus no more objective truth) than anyone else does or ever did, so it would be as stupid to believe one which is said to have come from Jesus, or Abraham, or Nostradameus was an objective truth claim as to think that of my chocolateworld assertion
 
who ever said subjective truths weren't valuable? as Moogle is saying, technically we can never assume the subjective truths we have are on point with what would be Truth if it could by some agent be objectively known. So subjective truths are all we really have, which means surely as concerns of truth go, they're the most valuable thing we, as epistemically limited agents, can hope for. Seems like a point worth spending time on to me.

No. Any true objective statement that we believe is an objective truth that we have. We can have such statements as part of our system of beliefs without having any reason to think that we have absolute, infallible knowledge that they are true.

You need to make it clear what a subjective truth is if we're going to get anywhere at all. Here are some ways I see of making sense of this notion.

1) A subjective truth can be a statement which depends for its truth on something that is ontologically subjective. For instance, "I am having a pain in my left knee right now" would in some sense be a subjective truth.

2) A statement can be subjectively true in the same sense that many people hold moral statements to be subjectively true, but not objectively true. I have always thought that using the term 'subjective truth' to apply to such statements is unnecessarily confusing. It makes more sense just to say that the language of truth and falsity doesn't properly apply to such statements. That is, it might be maintained that morality is only a matter of personal preferences. If we accept that, then it makes more sense to maintain that in saying "Killing is wrong" we are just expressing some kind of personal preference, but that it makes no sense to ask whether such statements are true or false. Now, take the statement "Multiculturalism is the cause of a lot of our problems." If that statement is subjective in the sense I'm describing here then it makes no sense to argue about whether that statement is true. If one and the same statement can be true in my mind and false in somebody else's mind then what is the point of arguing over whether that statement is true? This is why I asked a moogle why he is constantly arguing with people on this forum over the truth of various statements. If he thinks that certain statements can be true regardless of what anybody thinks about them, then his behavior on this forum makes perfect sense. If he thinks that any statement you care to consider can be true for one person and false for another then what he's doing on this forum becomes unintelligible, unless one supposes that he's merely partaking in argument as some kind of rhetorical strategy to get people to assent to his views.

'whatever that is supposed to mean'? you say that as if you don't see the repurcussions.

I understand the repurcussions of the various interpretations of said view. All I meant there is that what is meant by 'truth is subjective' is extremely unclear. I think it needs clarification if we want this debate to be productive.

It would be impossible for you to be a Christian and a respectable man at the same time if you accepted that your subjective truth about Jesus could be a lie employed by Satanic forces set forth to lead people astray by an appealing doctrine which is ultimately false or even strategically sinful, rather than that you have any kind of assurance that what you believe was ever based on any objective truth. The assertion that our epistemic limits mean you cannot know you are not deceived mean you have no more reason to accept anything Jesus ever supposedly said as objectively true to some actual 'Christ'/'God' than you do for any other self-proclaimed prophet or messiah through prehistory to modernity, or even of me and my right now saying 'the world is objectively made of chocolate, planet earth is just a perception, I have seen what no one else has seen.' I could be fucked in the head and be saying that sincerely because its true to me, but of course I have no better access to objectivity (and thus no more objective truth) than anyone else does or ever did, so it would be as stupid to believe one which is said to have come from Jesus, or Abraham, or Nostradameus was an objective truth claim as to think that of my chocolateworld assertion

I don't see what you're trying to illustrate with this example. Are you trying to argue for radical skepticism regarding knowledge or something? As far as I can see, that leaves the notion of something's being objectively true intact.
 
our subjective perception of what exists is our reality. perhaps we cannot know what is 'the truth' because we doubt our perceptions perfectly reflect what is being perceived, but in any case that truth exists. perhaps we have only our perception of the truth, but that doesn't mean truth itself objectively doesn't exist beyond what is merely true to us.

I pretty much agree - within our own perceptions we define truth as that which appears objective though. I am dismissing notions of the absolute (outside our perception) for it's irrelevance and impossibility. Anything within our perceptions we see as 'objective' is a truth within our perceptions, as such.

I think Cythraul makes the same point clearer - the benefits of a university education for all to see :p
 
Any true objective statement that we believe is an objective truth that we have.

of course any 'true objective statement that we believe' is' an objective truth that we have', and any 'objectively false statement we believe is objective truth' isn't 'an objective truth that we have'... the point to me is that we can never know which it is we actually have.


You need to make it clear what a subjective truth is if we're going to get anywhere at all.

what is meant by 'truth is subjective' is extremely unclear. I think it needs clarification if we want this debate to be productive.

I wouldn't say 'Truth' is subjective, but the truths in our lives, the only kind of truth ever to be known within our perceptual limits, is. As a dogs truth about the greyscale world isn't objectively true about the color of things (in our subjective opinion at least) so too our truths may be merely consistent interpretations of what exists, not a perfect representation of what they objectively are. I'm all for scientific realism n the like, but still I think it's like 'are we in the Matrix' it's one of those things we can never say 'no, I am finally in unquestionable possession of objective knowledge'

(which reminds me, personally I think the Matrix trilogy would have been much better with a more sci-fi novel sinister sort of ending like the ending of the movie eXistenZ---people allowed to get to Zion, to know what it is, to help others get there, and what is Zion, merely another matrix. 'When you believe you are free there is no hope of escape.' They think they finally have the objective truth merely because by comparison they're convinced what they now have is too close to what the truth must be for it to be no more the objective truth than the last perception of what is true)


As far as I can see, that leaves the notion of something's being objectively true intact.

of course it does. intact but detached from us. on the idea 'just because a bat can't know an apple is red doesn't mean it isn't' so too we'd say just because we're ontologically limited from knowing if our subjective truth matches the objective truth doesn't mean there is no objective truth.
 
The world is my representation...

But the values of postmodernists, excepting a sage few like Burroughs, have been liberal, and most of the points Justin S. listed are classic liberal dogma. New interpretation, same content. Hmmm.

That's really not what I meant at all. I am rather skeptical of Idealism. I try to offer a phenomenologic grounding for postmodernism. If anyone cares, I'll try to explain the problems of Idealism vs. Phenomenology by way of a short summary/direct paraphrase of the preface to M.P.'s Phenomenology of Perception. It's also quite applicable to Cythraul's arguments here.

What is phenomenology?

Phenomenology is the study of essences and the attempt to define them. It is a ‘transcendental’ philosophy in that it considers the fundamental nature of thought and being, but it is a philosophy for which the world is ‘already there’ before reflection begins. This perspective, this ‘facticity,’ is taken as the position from which to conduct philosophical enquiry into how contact is established with the world.

Phenomenology attempts to return to the ‘essence’ of our experiences as they are, without recourse to the causal explanations offered by scientific objectivism, sociology or history. It offers an account of space, time and existence as they are lived.

Phenomenology and Science

Phenomenology is from the start a rejection of science. One cannot ‘step outside’ of consciousness and argue from an objective viewpoint. I am not an object for biological investigation, existing in coordinates of objective space. ‘All my knowledge of the world, even my scientific knowledge, is gained from my own particular point of view.’ Science is the ‘second-order’ expression of this particular point of view, this experience. If we wish to understand science properly, we must return to the primary, lived experience that underpins it.

Science offers an explanation of the lived world but in returning to the living (as a verb) of that world we find that ‘I am not a ‘living creature’ nor even a ‘man,’ nor again even ‘a consciousness’ endowed with the characteristics biology might ascribe to them. I am the absolute source.’ There are no ‘befores,’ no antecedents to my existence. My existence is not granted by the physical and social conditions of my environment. Rather it reaches out to sustain them. I alone bring into being the world in which I live. If I were not there to scan it with my gaze, the ‘horizon’ would not exist, since its distance from me is not one of its properties.

The scientific viewpoint, holding my existence as a moment in the world’s, is therefore naïve and dishonest, ‘as is geography in relation to the countryside in which we have learnt beforehand what a forest, a prairie or a river is.’

The distinction between Phenomenology and Idealism.

If the demand for a description of phenomenological experience excludes the procedure of scientific explanation, it also excludes that of analytical reflection. Descartes and Kant detached ‘I’ as a subject, proposing that nothing could have existence unless the ‘I’ was aware of itself existing in the act of apprehending it. That is, certainty of my existence is the condition upon which there is anything at all: The world exists because I exist to relate it. However, because analytical reflection retreats away from direct experience back towards a subject that is the condition of this experience, it ceases to give an account of direct experience and instead offers a detached reconstruction.

Analysis is an act: a reflection upon unreflective experience. The unreflective experience is ‘already there.’ The world is already there before analytical reflection. ‘The real has to be described, not constructed or formed.’ Surprising things happen without waiting for our judgment, and likewise our most plausible figments of imagination are rejected in the real. Reflection is aware of its act of reflecting. Perception is not an act; it is simply ‘the background from which all acts stand out.’ Analysis is founded upon already existing direct experience. One might talk about the direct experience of analysing – that is, what it is like to analyse – but there is no detached ‘realm of truth’ in the ‘inner man’ which can exclude itself from the experience of being in the world. Indeed, there is no inner man. Man is in the world and only through direct experience of being in the world does he know himself. Idealism and science are built upon a phenomenological foundation. That they do not credit this is their error.

Phenomenology attempts to return to the essence of experience as it is lived. That realm from which scientific and Idealistic abstraction are attempted.

***

I am very interested in postmodernism that attempts to disclose the ontology of the phenomenological field through poetics. Prime examples of this are Gravity's Rainbow, Finnegans Wake and Nadja. Postmodernism and Surrealism reveal Being in a more complete fashion that realism. They are vital, as opposed to didactic. They liberate language from its confused fixity of onticality. Futhermore, postmodernism liberates thought from the productionist metaphysics that dispose things as fuel for power (money, sex, destructive potential) simply for its own sake.

This is why 'word-play' is always more essential than linear plot and why, I suspect, my literary tastes differ from yours.
 
Pynchon is a smart fellow who put together some underground trendy ideas but ultimately had nowhere to take it, like Joyce and Nabokov. But what do you create, other than tours of Neurosis, we could ask them, and they'd be silent if they were honest.

I enjoyed the post Nile.

I was watching an interview with Martin Amis last week--his new book The House of Meetings is excellent, superlative really, by the way--in which he propounded that writers are so critical of each other because writing is such a personal craft--so much of the writer, even if he doesnt write about himself, is left on the page. I think the same goes with readers and lovers of philosophy, literature, any of the humanities really--hell, even science. Perhaps we readers (especially with foolish writing intentions), place too much of ourselves in a work or author we really enjoy, and this is why such sharp arguments occur.

I for one agree with you on Pynchon Conservationist. I still find him incredibly didactic and a bit turgid in a cold way, for my tastes. I'm also not a fan of his chaos theory plots. But Im not trying to diminish him or anything, its just he does nothing for me.
 
I don't think the following paper warrants a thread of its own, especially since it is so specific in treatment. However, it is a more representative display of the writing I am engaged with compared to the paper on Logical Positivism that I presented a while back (which was lackluster, to be charitable). The following is a very short response to 3 works: E. A. Poe's The Purloined Letter, J. Lacan's reading of Poe in his Seminar on "The Purloined Letter", and J. Derrida's reading of Poe and Lacan on Poe in Le Facteur de la Vérité (The Deliverer of Truth). However, the issues at hand are much more than mere literary analysis. Poe's story is simply a fitting backdrop to essential questions of the philosophical tradition.

However, a great deal of my paper will be lost on those who are not familiar with these authors, and especially these works (in addition to Kant). Plays on, and subtlety with, "dupe" and "err" (from the play French phrase "les non-dupes errent", [roughly, "those who think they cannot be duped, err] which is phonetically the same as "le nons du pere" [the emptiness of "the father", of appeals to authority], the "ostrich", unveiling/veiling as concealment/unconcealment and as allusion to The Emperor's New Clothes, the signifier/signifying chain, Freud's Wiederholungszwang "repetition compulsion" and castration theories, Heideggerian notions, the importance of "the secret" aka "the real", etc. will be lost. However, the central thrust should be quite clear, especially to those who are familiar with my postings here.

Feedback is always welcomed.


http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=88918071285D1A87
 
I'm 23 and I wrote it this past weekend. My writing is most influenced by how I read and my conception of language, which have improved over the past few years (however far along in a continual work in progress). And even though I appreciate your compliment, its quite sad that the average college student writes at a child's level.

The conception of anxiety here is one built upon Kierkegaard's, and especially Heidegger's sense. A "fundamental mood" that is attuned to the tension of Being, including being-in-the-world, throwness, being-towards-death, etc. Also, as I briefly mentioned in the paper, for Heidegger, anxiety (which is not fear, fear is fear from something. As he writes (my paraphrase): Rather anxiety is anxiety of ... , anxiety in the face of ...) is a mood that reveals "the nothing", the slipping away of beings-as-a-whole, the mood which reveals the nihil (the nihilistic experience). Through this gateway of nihilism, Dasein stands-out, ek-statically, and witnesses beings, authentically, for the first time. For Heidegger, anxiety, as the guide of nihilism, is the path to authentic existence.

For Derrida (very similarly to Heidegger), remaining in the turbulence of anxiety, of being held out into the nothing, is key to resisting ideology, which is "duped" certainty of "The Truth". Only by hovering in anxiety can we resist the lures of ideology. My paper was questioning how we can weather such turbulence, whether resisting ideology is possible, or if its altogether more complicated than this (I think the latter).