You're making it seem as if being from the Ghetto is a bad thing. Many Blacks have pride coming from the Ghetto, as Puerto Ricans from the Barrio, whites in a suburban neighborhood, etc. These are all neighborhoods within each group of people. And why do you equate being from the suburbs as "intelligent and mannerly?" You said it..."Of course it's ignorant." It's reality, but IT'S WRONG.
Question for the non-native English speakers
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You're making it seem as if being from the Ghetto is a bad thing. Many Blacks have pride coming from the Ghetto, as Puerto Ricans from the Barrio, whites in a suburban neighborhood, etc. These are all neighborhoods within each group of people. And why do you equate being from the suburbs as "intelligent and mannerly?" You said it..."Of course it's ignorant." It's reality, but IT'S WRONG.
Obviously. And those trailer trash aren't climbing the corporate ladder, are they?
If you're interested, go back and look at what I've written on the rap threads. At the risk of repeating myself to the people who've been around here a while (this is a favorite subject of mine), I've grown up in a predominantly black area -- I've been the minority all my life -- everything about me is shaped by black culture -- I actually feel more comfortable in a room full of blacks than a room full of whites -- I'm by no means ignorant on the subject.
But your impression of rap music is naive, to say the least. Rap does bother me -- new-school, that is -- because it does nothing but glorify the many negative effects of poverty.
You say "But most Blacks relate to it, and it's THEIRS," which is just false. You yourself said that not all blacks are poor gang-bangers. So it's obviously not the voice of all black people (nor should it be). If some black people do relate to the topics discussed, I wish they would warn against that lifestyle rather than glorify it.
And the rappers who claim, "I'm just rapping about what I know, what I've experienced," well, they're flat-out lying, in many cases. Many black entertainers have come from the neighboring towns to mine because BET has its roots here, and these people live in million-dollar homes, very much removed from the ghetto they rap about.
The only topics acceptable to rap are "negative." This means that children of the black parents who have managed to rise into the middle class are now throwing themselves back down into the lower class by emulating the only role models they have. My relatively middle-class neighborhood is now full of middle-class black gang-bangers. This is sickening -- and of their own doing.
If "Black people are trying to build a legit culture and history," as you say, why don't they revere Cornel West, William Raspberry, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Ruth Simmons, Jocelyn Elders -- educated, successful black leaders? In college I took an African-American studies class in which I was given a list of "black leaders" from which to choose one to write an essay about. Want to know who was on that list? Spike Lee, Tupac, Ice Cube, Snoop Dogg, etc. Not a single black professional. Do you know what the black student union on my campus spent all their time doing? No, not tutoring/mentoring the thousands of poor, struggling black kids in the area schools. No, they were too busy lobbying to get a gangsta rapper to be the headlining act at the yearly concert. Nice "culture" they're trying to build there.
I meant "second-class" in that they haven't achieved equality in this country. It was by no means a racist statement on my part.
And the fact that white people work at fast-food restaurants is irrelevant -- of course they do. But the fact remains that blacks disproportionately work in minimum-wage jobs (an example of their second-class status).
Stating facts like that is in no way racist -- in fact, as a liberal going into public policy, I (perhaps naively) dream of ways of reducing the inequality in this country. But first you have to be honest about the problems. Blaming blacks' problems in this country on slavery is a simple-minded cop-out.
tintin
Member
I agree with you totally! But I'm also a realistic person and have little faith in our society. People are ignorant, and will be ignorant.
If this is how you view my responses, I end it here. I grew up being a part of the black community, as an Hispanic woman, I related very much to the blacks in my neighborhood. Not all new-school is negative, since my husband listens to Rap and I listen to the words many times. There is negativity in all music, depending on your perspective, your culture, etc.
Tell that to my Rap-loving black friends.
They're entertainers, where do you expect them to live now? In the projects? And you're telling me that 'MANY' black entertainers come from your neck of the woods only?
Anyway, enough of that. I don't need to continue this debate since it's going to go nowhere.
tintin
Member
Jannet, it seems like you ignore points in these posts that you could give an interesting unique opinion about, like the glorification of gangsta rappers at the expense of the scholars, government leaders, judges, etcs. and just point out things to get offended about. It's as if you don't want to discuss these matters but rather have taken the opposite side of the argument. You refer to a debate, but really it's just a discussion.
I would like to hear your opinions rathering than just hearing how you've been insulted.
I would like to hear your opinions rathering than just hearing how you've been insulted.
See Tintin, once the insults start, it's time to end the discussion. I personally did not insult anyone, and I don't expect to be insulted. I'm not goint to waste my time going back and forth, back and forth, when nothing will come of it. And you want to see my take "on the glorification of gangsta rappers at the expense of the scholars, government leaders, judges, etc."? I don't hear many white singers singing about George Washington, President Clinton, Bush and the like. If you ask to do the same list but in a white context, they'll most likely pick Britney Spears, some entertainer or whatnot. And not for anything, I didn't see ANY white, black or hispanic people tutoring any poor kids in my old area schools. And if it was at the time of the year when there was a concert going on, so what if they spent their time trying to get an entertainer to perform? Whites do it all the time, getting entertainers for benefits, shows, etc. I'm sick of the double standard, and if we're talking reality here, it should spread across the races.
I and several other people on this board would love if you could share the names of some of these groups. I mean that seriously. A surprising number of us on here grew up listening to old-school rap and fell away from it as it became increasingly negative. I would love to hear some uplifting rap music, so if you know any, please share.
Yes, but if white people don't want to listen to it, they can turn to many other genres of music. Whereas if black people don't like rap lyrics, there is nowhere else for them to turn, no other pop genre for young black people to listen to without being accused of selling out. This can't be a good omen for the future success of blacks in this country, to have no positive role models!
So all of your rap-loving black friends grew up in extreme poverty? Do they view poverty as their financial goal?
I mean they lived there before they got into the business. In fact, the only reason they got a contract in the first place is because of their parents' record-industry connections.
Just a little background because I think it's interesting and could possibly shed some light on my situation: Prince George's County, Maryland, (where I live and grew up) has the highest percentage of rich black people of anywhere in the country. It also has a higher murder rate than New York City. Just an off-topic but interesting little dichotomy there.
Mos Def, De La Soul (they just came out with a new album), Common Sense, Talib Kwali, City High, Outkast, to name a few..
and I would recommend watching "Def Poetry" on Friday nights on HBO, if you live in the states and get that channel. All I can say is "wow."
Think R&B. Two of my favorite R&B singers are Jill Scott and Alicia Keys.
Not at all. They just love rap.
And where I lived in Yonkers had one of the lowest, and Mary J. Blige (Schlobaums projects) and the Green Eyed Bandit came from there. Most black entertainers that rap about the ghetto is because they came from the ghetto, not your "rich black" neighborhood. And speaking of "rich" black people, I've only personally met one in my life, when I was going door to door canvassing to protect the Long Island Sound in a ritzy Connecticut area.
Fjelltussa
...
Why, of course it has positive sides! Many! It's good to help people; that's not what I meant. For instance, there's much fewer poor people in Norway than in USA, in %. We have a quite accurate number of 'our poor ones', and those into it know all the homeless by name, so you can figure yourself. But there's not really a limit for how much assistance you can get, so, although most won't 'abuse' that help because of their pride, it's possible to live on other people's tax-money for most of your life. Lots of things are free, still many complain about the things they have to pay for, even though they don't really need them. And although many things are more expensive in Norway than other countries, people also earn more money here. I don't know exactly where, but I know my country are on the top 5 list of the richest countries in the world, above all the other scandinavian countries, and I'm quite sure we lay above the US to. And believe me; this makes an awful lot of pouting people. It really makes me sick!
Many need to learn to take responsibility for themselves. In Norway, you see, you don't really have to!!
tintin
Member
Lol, you're right about that. Why should I expect the black community to have this model behavior, like rapping about Colin Powell, when no other group is doing such things. Same goes for the tutoring thing. I prefer to stay in reality, rather than idealistic proclamations of future brotherhood, blah, blah, and the double standards you've mentioned are points taken. As are your mentioning De La Soul, Mos Def, and Alicia Keys. Might as well throw in the Roots and India.Arie.
I'm not talking about rapping about these guys. I'm talking about the fact that educated, accomplished, successful black role models are not revered even among academia (i.e., by my African-American studies professors). Many of the troubles that plague black society are perpetuated by the lack of "a way out" in sight. We both want blacks to be treated equally, to live equally, to be on equal economic footing. I just don't see rap music as working toward that goal -- in fact, it sabotages it.
I've always loved De La Soul and was thrilled to see they're keeping up their own style. I will check out some of these others. Do you know anything about Jurassic 5? I saw a decent video of theirs, but couldn't tell a whole lot.
This is a good point. I don't know how I forgot about that. BUT I can't think of a single black person my age that I've ever met who didn't listen to rap, even if not exclusively. It has an undeniably huge influence on black society.
tintin
Member
this, like most things, has differing viewpoints. I agree that the misogynist, homophobic, sexist, racist views often displayed in rap videos creates a terrible stereotype of these artists as thugs and criminals and paints a very negative view of the whole race. However, rap has brought the life, opinions, and problems of millions of disenfranchised people into homes around the world. The ideas that are spread by rap and that are being analyzed, memorized, and debated by the world's youth had no outlet before rap. Rap music has become a very powerful forum, for that the genre deserves lots of credit.
Then again, the satan worship, obsession with gloom and death, and even pro-Aryan lyrics of metal isn't the healthiest thing around either. If rap wants to create buffoonish thugs, they need only glance at black metal's corsepainted goofballs for inspiration.
Hey, I'm not black, but I do have black friends who don't listen to Gansta rap. Just as metal has all its sub genres, Rap does too...not as many, but it does have it. I have plenty of black friends who DO exclusively listen to positive, poetic rap and hip hop or that listen to old-school stuff. Also, there are blacks that ONLY listen to R&B, even young people (Some of the young black teens that I have as friends that don't care for rap listen to R&B and jazz exclusively).
You MUST read Yonkers, NY history. I read a book years ago (I'll find out the name, give me time), and it was about the youngest Mayor in Yonkers who decided to place a "project" complex in an all white neighborhood on the "good" side of Yonkers. It also mentions how Yonkers was segregated on purpose by upper government officials, whereas all the Projects are on the West side, where the Industrial Parks are (I lived there for a while, South Broadway, by Ghetty Square - or should I say "Ghetto Square," as known by the locals). There are many, many factors hindering blacks in their society. Here's one that I think is quite important: A black person who has been in prison for ANY amount of time has a HUGE problem getting a job. Now I'm not saying that whites don't have that problem, but it's an epidemic in the black community. I know a friend of mine that had a domestic abuse problem with his ex-girlfriend, and got in trouble with the law because of it, and now he cannot get a job for the life of him. He has not turned to a life of drug dealing and whatnot, but geeez - I can understand why many blacks turn to that life! There are so many social issues to be looked at. Personally, I think, our current society's rules, laws, etc. are historically ancient compared to what it will be 100-200-300 years from now. People in the future (if we haven't dropped an atomic bomb that destroys the earth on ourselves by then), will look at this generation's history and think "what the hell were they thinking?" Cultures change over time, and in 100 years (or a lot sooner, they say), if the evidence is accurate, will show Hispanics as the majority (in America), and we have no clue what kind of balance (or imbalance) that's going to cause! Anyway, basically I believe that there are many factors affecting the black community, BUT I do believe it is improving, but they have a long way to go. Just a thought *Look at the white rappers, and where they came from, dirty south (like that rapper "Cracker"). I firmly believe that where you live, grew up, your surrounding society, shapes your life. There are people who aren't happy with there current lives, and move on to what they believe is better, for example, I moved from Yonkers to upper New York because I wanted to get away from the guns, drugs, etc., and I didn't want my son to grow up in that. But I would have never had the opportunity to leave that situation if #1, I hadn't gone to college, and #2, I didn't bust my tush to get a fabulous job that took me 4 years to get! I am the only Hispanic in my office, out of 38 people. Everyone else is Jewish and white! The blacks that work in my office are Receptionists! Well, I think I've told you my life story, hehe..but I just want you to understand where I'm coming from.
This is exactly what I have argued in previous posts about rap on this board -- that there have to be sub-genres that just aren't played on MTV. But I've met about as many black people into underground, positive rap as I have white people into Opeth -- hmmm, maybe 3?
I wish positive rap was more mainstream. I respect rap as an artform, as an admirable facet of black culture -- but not when it's negative, as most of it is. And unfortunately it is the negative rap that has remained dominant and most influential. Blah, blah, blah, I've said all that already. 
Wolff
New Metal Member
- May 9, 2001
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Afros invented music FULL STOP.
no gospel= no rockn'roll(elvis, beatles),soul, hip hop, dance(trance, techno, jungle etc etc are all stripped down hip hop)..infact most of our popular music stems from Gospel...
Except maybe for some genres of dance. Disco/jungle certainly owe to funk and hiphop, but I would say trance/techno owe more to the likes of Kraftwerk, who in their time 'invented' a very "white" and European kind of music in the late seventies.
And I guess we'd have to include classical music as well, which of course is a European thing. But basically, any music with a BEAT started with Afro Americans...
no gospel= no rockn'roll(elvis, beatles),soul, hip hop, dance(trance, techno, jungle etc etc are all stripped down hip hop)..infact most of our popular music stems from Gospel...
Except maybe for some genres of dance. Disco/jungle certainly owe to funk and hiphop, but I would say trance/techno owe more to the likes of Kraftwerk, who in their time 'invented' a very "white" and European kind of music in the late seventies.
And I guess we'd have to include classical music as well, which of course is a European thing. But basically, any music with a BEAT started with Afro Americans...
Yes, the beat started in Africa, with cultural songs and whatnot, but also, specifically, it started at the time when the slaves were working and singing in code at a distinct rhythmical beat, their form of secret communication.
Obyeybyeogone
New Metal Member
Hey, I hardly EVER watch MTV, and I'll watch BET only because my husband likes watching it (and I get a kick out of Def Comedy Jam), but I see it like this: When I see some of the rap shows on BET, they literally make me ill because of the ever-repeated "men with diamond rings surrounded by flashy cars and bikini clad girls, drinkin Cristal and throwing money around like water" theme in most of the videos. I walk away and mumble about "I'm sick of this bullshit" under my breath. But unfortunately, negativity sells. Sex, money, and drugs are money magnets and TV executive's dream. However, there are wonderful music segments on BET featuring R&B artists, and also positive rap artists (that's how I found out about Mos Def and Talib Kwali). Mos Def also hosts "Def Poetry," which would make your eyes pop out and your ears perk up in amazement by the poets breaking it down on this show. I don't believe most rap is negative; it just seems that way because that's what gets the most airtime on TV and causes a sensational response, which of course fills up TV time and keeps eyes glued to the television.
Obyeybyeogone
New Metal Member
I think most popular music is negative anyways. There is a positive version of most all music, and then a version that needs to make money and become popular. Unfortunately, the popular/(Usually)negative version is what most people end up listening to.
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