Something Must Have Come From Nothing...

[Liisa]

but why?

Are you asking, 'Why does matter exist?'. I don't know why it exists. Perhaps someone else could help shed light on that mystery..

 

[AchrisK]

Only a chronological sequence implies time. How would an ontological sequence imply time? Like couldnt something always exist, not exist in time, not have a beginning, and begin time/space/matter? Ontologically prior isnt the same thing as chronologically prior. While you cannot have a time before time, you can have (non temporal) existence and then time beginning without contradiction. Since nothing cannot cause something, and something began, how would that not mean something beyond time caused the beginning and continuing existence of the contingent temporal universe? Also if we cant grasp the concept of being outside time does that mean your statement about how we CANT know about this being beyond time is meaningless?

I agree with you. What I was saying, is that if someone wants to understand the absolute "beginning" of everything, I think our own perspective based on time, and our finite perception, would keep us from being able to grasp it. But, yes, our own temporal, physical universe could have been (and almost must have been) created by an ontological force or being. Obviously this being or force is not meaningless, and the fact that our universe exists implies some purpose or reason. I think that to assume that this being or force can be fully understood is foolish, but I believe that this being or force could make some aspects of itself known to us if it wanted to.

 

[Janga666]

I agree with you. What I was saying, is that if someone wants to understand the absolute "beginning" of everything, I think our own perspective based on time, and our finite perception, would keep us from being able to grasp it. But, yes, our own temporal, physical universe could have been (and almost must have been) created by an ontological force or being. Obviously this being or force is not meaningless, and the fact that our universe exists implies some purpose or reason. I think that to assume that this being or force can be fully understood is foolish, but I believe that this being or force could make some aspects of itself known to us if it wanted to.

I agree that humans aren't able to grasp the immensity of where the universe came from. I think it probably does exist outside of time, which we cannot comprehend. I do not agree that the universe must have been created by an "ontological force or being" that could reaveal itself to us if it wanted to. If there is a creator, I don't think it has a "self" that we percept a god would have. I think it is something the same as nature (the changing seasons, an ecosystem, ect) in that there is no being or self, but a force that we cannot comprehend.

 

[Janga666]

but why?

Why does everything have to have a reason to exist?

 

[AchrisK]

I agree that humans aren't able to grasp the immensity of where the universe came from. I think it probably does exist outside of time, which we cannot comprehend. I do not agree that the universe must have been created by an "ontological force or being" that could reaveal itself to us if it wanted to. If there is a creator, I don't think it has a "self" that we percept a god would have. I think it is something the same as nature (the changing seasons, an ecosystem, ect) in that there is no being or self, but a force that we cannot comprehend.

Well then what other explanation is there? What you're referring to is evolution, and that cannot explain the origin of everything, or even life. It only describes how living organisms, once they existed, have changed.

I know it is all outside of our understanding, but I cannot fathom or imagine at least our physical universe not resulting from a cause.

 

[Janga666]

Well then what other explanation is there? What you're referring to is evolution, and that cannot explain the origin of everything, or even life. It only describes how living organisms, once they existed, have changed.

I know it is all outside of our understanding, but I cannot fathom or imagine at least our physical universe not resulting from a cause.

I didn't say that I didn't think the universe resulted from a cause. I said that I don't think that cause has a "self" such as a god.

 

[that one guy]

Which leads to the "something must have come from nothing...". I doubt we will ever know what that something was or how it came to be. Some people believe it was "big bang" some people believe in what the bible has to say about god "creating the heavens and the earth" and strictly believe that is how everything came to be. I don't see how people can believe that, and not knowing where this "god" came from.

You have a good point Jen. What is nothing? If we know of what nothing is, how did it come to be? It troubles me to not know these questions, but with each "possible" theory or answer brings more questions, which is why i have loved to study philosophy for the past 3 years.

You have a great point, but this "god" you speak of is not always a symbol of absoulute truth and understanding. The definition of the word "faith" mentions nothing of the sort. You can put faith into anything without knowing the truth behind it, i.e. putting faith into something such as a boxing match, in which the outcome can (almost) never be absolutely predetermined. I personally am an agnostic atheist, I find it to be the easiest form of what the masses might call "religion".


Two theories which might be able to help you with your problem of "something must have come from nothing" would be the theory of the multiverse, which deals with the super-string theory, a lot of infinites, and all of the higher dimensions, eleven to be exact. This theory is interesting in that it gives infinite possibilities. With more than one universe with a fixed set of physical possibilites, anything can be possible if you go to the right universe, even the possibility of what we would call "gods", beings that can create something out of nothing, at least halfway explaining your problem.

The other (keep in mind that these are the only two that I can come up with off the top of my head) would be the disproven theory of a static universe. Which explains that the universe has no beginning, that it has always been there. Again this theory has been mathematically disproven, so this one doesnt help you very much.

You should check out a bood that recently came out, "Physics of the Impossible" by Michio Kaku. I got both of these theories from there.

 

[Demiurge]

The bottom line to this I think is that the universe is contingent, can either be or not be, is not necessary, and since whatever is contingent must be caused by another because it cannot cause itself, the universe must be caused by something beyond what is contingent/beyond the contingent time space universe..ie necessary=God. This follows I think from just using the basic first principles of reason, one of which is the law of causality. Whatever comes to be or can cease to be must be caused, the universe came to be/can cease to be, therefore the universe must be caused. So while nothing cannot cause something, where only something can cause something, something can cause something out of nothing which is consistent w the principle of causality.

How do you know that the universe is contingent? How do you justify the principle of causality wrt the universe?

 

[hexwind]

It's like you are asking who came first the chicken or the egg !!!
Maybe somewhere in the future people will know where exactly we came from due to the technological changes or something?? and btw, there is another question. where were we before we come to this planet, i mean, some people believe that we will go to heaven/hell after death, but before our birth, where have we been???

 

[Xcommunicated]

Surely everything that exists must have had a beginning?

Why?

something must have come from nothing

There is no such thing as nothing.

but what about god himself

Where's your evidence of God?

do you feel right living in the world without at least inquiring where it came from?

Why not?

Edit, let me expand.

Surely everything that exists must have had a beginning?

Nope, not necessarily. We, and our experiences, are bound by our universe, anything outside that universe may have its own set of rules or no rules at all.

something must have come from nothing

In our universe there is no such thing as nothing, outside of that universe there could be nothing but perhaps it was always there. It does not need a beginning.

but what about god himself

If people are willing to accept God needed no creator than why can't the accept the 'outer-universe' needs no creator?

do you feel right living in the world without at least inquiring where it came from?

I have no predefined obligations to do anything, anything I do do I have my own reasons for. That's not to say I'm not interested.

From what I understand what we once believed to be nothing is actually dark energy, we now 'know' there is no such thing as nothing in our universe.

 

[Machiavellismx]

Nope, not necessarily. We, and our experiences, are bound by our universe, anything outside that universe may have its own set of rules or no rules at all.

thats 100% true.
our minds are only equippedto deal with 4 dimensions. height, lenght, depth, time. anything outside of these 4 dimensions - and there are at least 10 last time i read about this - we cannot comprehend physically.

with that in mind, a 'god' like being, or a creator, would be outside of those 4 dimensions, and as you said, would not be bound by our rules. if this being is not bound by rules, why would it need a creator? it is not impossible for it to simply just 'be'. it is there, and that is all there is.

in other words there is no such thing as infinite regress, that was proven centuries ago by tomas aquinas. something has to start everything off - in OUR world. this includes the universe, and earth and life. which means the big bang (if you accept that) was caused by some form of itelligent being outside of our comprehension. to this being is given the name, god. or gods. we dont know, and wont know what this being(s) is until we die.

 

[Xcommunicated]

Hmm, I guess you could say my logic is somewhat similar to, or perhaps a descendant of Plato's. I've not spent a lot of time studying Plato, but my cursory examinations lead me to believe he wastes far too much energy on spooky sh*t like souls and hidden forms. My theory is much simpler, and doesn't require leaps of faith to reach bizarre conclusions. For that matter, it doesn't require any conclusions to speak of, so it's really more cynicism than a belief.

All I'm saying is that theists tend to overestimate nature by attaching a magical force to the system. Atheists, on the other hand, tend to underestimate nature by compartmentalizing various branches of science and not looking at the proverbial big picture.

Take evolution versus so-called intelligent design, for instance. The theists scream from their pulpits that there must have been some sentient intelligence at the beginning somewhere to create us. Meanwhile atheists generally denounce the existence of any form of intelligence before life developed it. My position is that in order for us to have evolved intelligence in the first place, the physical and chemical rules which allow our brains to operate already existed, ergo, the system itself has inherent, latent intelligence which doesn't need faeries and sky wizards to steer it. My theory is really almost too simple to explain.

It might help to think of the universe as a giant computer. While a computer and its individual components are dumb objects, the programs running on the system can make decisions based on the rules which govern it. This metaphor is obviously flawed since a computer usually needs a builder and an operator, but even binary decisions are an example of "intelligence" expressed from an otherwise dumb system. On the other hand, what happens when computers begin to think for and create/replicate themselves? Are we "gods" for creating them? Or is this just another example of preexisting, constant rules expressing themselves in a new manner?

Naturally, the computer example begs the question of what created the universal computer in the first place. Going back to the original question of the topic, in my opinion there can be no creation of something out of nothing, as the rules which govern something must have already been in place. Which would mean there was always something there. The problem here is that the human brain has a hard time fathoming the concept of eternity.

Just as it has a hard time fathoming the vast scope of how and why in general, which in turn leads to black-and-white oversimplifications such as theism and atheism.

 

[monoxide_child]

Are you asking, 'Why does matter exist?'. I don't know why it exists. Perhaps someone else could help shed light on that mystery..

okay
this is where i tell people that i believe in "inteligent design" but i don't believe in "creationism"

if you read the ten comandments, "God" talks about worshiping "other" deities, and worshiping "false idols"
because of the way it's translated, most people who read it in english, don't realize that "God" is actually saying those 2 things as 2 completely seperate commands
the Judeo-Christian "God" is actually admitting the existence of other deities, (that have power) and telling you not to worship them, IN ADDITION TO telling you to not worship those "false idol" deities that come from the human imagination

i personally know these other deities exist, because i can "heal" people, (i've actually made a cancer tumor shrink) i can see flashes of the future (more annoying than helpfull), read people's minds (certain people), and i can bend falling rain to keep people dry (i've only done it twice)

i definately believe in "inteligent design" in that i believe the universe was created by some sort of deity, but i do not believe in "creationism" in that i do not believe it was the Judeo-Christian God that made the universe, i do not believe the universe was made in 6 days and i definately do not believe the ridiculous theory that "noah's flood" was the great disaster that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs

 

[Blowtus]

Wow it's so good to get explanations for things. Can you tell me where these other deities came from Mr Child?

 

[Cythraul]

i personally know these other deities exist, because i can "heal" people, (i've actually made a cancer tumor shrink) i can see flashes of the future (more annoying than helpfull), read people's minds (certain people), and i can bend falling rain to keep people dry (i've only done it twice)

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but I don't think suffering from delusions supports the thesis that other deities exist. Just sayin'.

 

[Demiurge]

i personally know these other deities exist, because i can "heal" people, (i've actually made a cancer tumor shrink) i can see flashes of the future (more annoying than helpfull), read people's minds (certain people), and i can bend falling rain to keep people dry (i've only done it twice)

I know that Santa Claus exists because he brings me presents and the Easter Bunny did exist until I ran him over 3 years ago.

 

[Resonator]

You guys don't know what you're talking about. Leave the poor boy to his own lamentation for he does not understand he is a victim of his own design.

monoxide, you lack knowledge.

 

[Machiavellismx]

Which would mean there was always something there. The problem here is that the human brain has a hard time fathoming the concept of eternity..

Science itself proves you can not get something from nothing - if I sit here for a million years, something not just going to appear in front of me. It has to be made/created for anything to exist. I agree that something must have been there to kick start it all (going back to Tomas Aquinas) but your 100% right, eternity is such an abstract concept that we have to simplify it to understand it, and by simplifying it, we lose the essence of what we are actually trying to fathom. I mean just think, what actually is eternity? A very very long time, but its absolutely impossible to actually imagine the real significance of the word.

However just because we have to simplify it, does not make it wrong as such. I believe there was definity intelligent design, no way we came out of an accident - the world is just to perfect, before we started messing it up, to fit us. E.g. if the earth was an inch closer/further away from the sun, it would be too hot/cold for our life. I cannot accept that was just…luck.

Also, remember Eisenstein. He wanted to believe in the steady state theory - the one where the universe expands, contracts, expands, contracts, repeats, and has always done so. There is no moment of creation with this, and he found it much more astatically pleasing than the idea of the big bang. Why? Because the big band meant there was a moment of creation - genesis, the beginning etc…! he fought and fought against the big bang theory, until the evidence overwhelmed him and he had to accept the facts. Big bang is much more likely, than steady state. I think the big bang’s significance, that it proved the moment of creation to be true, has been lost now, and people just regard it as ‘it just happened’.

if you read the ten comandments, "God" talks about worshiping "other" deities, and worshiping "false idols"
because of the way it's translated, most people who read it in english, don't realize that "God" is actually saying those 2 things as 2 completely seperate commands
the Judeo-Christian "God" is actually admitting the existence of other deities, (that have power) and telling you not to worship them, IN ADDITION TO telling you to not worship those "false idol" deities that come from the human imagination

i personally know these other deities exist

Unless you are a doctor in translation of ancient Hebrew, then who is to say you are correct in saying the translation is wrong? I understand what you mean, but you need evidnce to back it up. Fact is the bible is just a translation and can be wrong, but it could be rightly translated to. Just something to note.

Also, just because the God in the bible is saying we shouldn’t worship other deities or idols, doesn’t make them real. I could say don’t worship other deities, would that make them true? Of course not. The passage is referring to the Israelites who worshipped statues and such and God said there is nothing other than me, and the others are false. he is not saying worship him instead of others, he is saying they do not exist. End of. Period. No more questions.

I know that Santa Claus exists because he brings me presents and the Easter Bunny did exist until I ran him over 3 years ago.

That just made me laugh ahah

 

[Resonator]

I mean just think, what actually is eternity? A very very long time, but its absolutely impossible to actually imagine the real significance of the word.

How are you so sure you will experience eternity in your lifetime? It does not exist for any single individual yet more so for you. The significance of the term infinity can be used like "The objects in our universe have appeared to exist for eternity,"

However just because we have to simplify it, does not make it wrong as such. I believe there was definity intelligent design, no way we came out of an accident - the world is just to perfect, before we started messing it up, to fit us. E.g. if the earth was an inch closer/further away from the sun, it would be too hot/cold for our life. I cannot accept that was just…luck.

While I agree with the sentiment that intelligent design is part of the process in some small way, how do we know that humans wouldn't have evolved on Earth if it was even a Kilometer closer OR farther from the sun? Since the problem would have arisen at a crucial root point in our tree of evolution it would make sense to me that (If we were farther away) we would have thicker skin, maybe not so much body mass in terms of general size, a separate set of eyelids to protect from the cold, and maybe other things. There's lots of animals that can survive the cold...Maybe if it were so the Penguin wouldn't be such an isolated animal

Because the big band meant there was a moment of creation - genesis, the beginning etc…! he fought and fought against the big bang theory, until the evidence overwhelmed him and he had to accept the facts. Big bang is much more likely, than steady state. I think the big bang’s significance, that it proved the moment of creation to be true, has been lost now, and people just regard it as ‘it just happened’.

This plays on the notion that there is more than just our universe in the grand spectrum of things. I don't contradict based on my theories but let it be known I've been doing some thinking, some putting together of the pieces which says we cannot possibly be alone in a multi dimensional universe.

Unless you are a doctor in translation of ancient Hebrew, then who is to say you are correct in saying the translation is wrong? I understand what you mean, but you need evidnce to back it up. Fact is the bible is just a translation and can be wrong, but it could be rightly translated to. Just something to note.

This is why I don't read the bible. It has been translated SO many times and RE-WRITTEN so many times. Which is not to say the jist of the story is true but IF the books are meant to be metaphorical then the metaphorical concept has truly been lost in them because of it.

Read a book called "The Gnostic Bible" by Wills Barnstone and Marvin Meyer. Excellent books, all translated from Coptic, word for word (Unless otherwise noted)

Also, just because the God in the bible is saying we shouldn’t worship other deities or idols, doesn’t make them real. I could say don’t worship other deities, would that make them true? Of course not. The passage is referring to the Israelites who worshipped statues and such and God said there is nothing other than me, and the others are false. he is not saying worship him instead of others, he is saying they do not exist. End of. Period. No more questions.

Well, for the Jews it would be hypocritical of them to worship someone else. But the truth is, there is a plan and following God offers a test of fate for them. Maybe they will survive the afterlife, but if Ignorance is a sin in heaven then when the truth is presented they are all sinners and not worthy in God's eyes by his own definition.

I wouldn't trust the guy with my own fate. Wisdom is power, so on with the heresy! Let's sort it out and find some truth, shall we?

 

[Dak]

okay
this is where i tell people that i believe in "inteligent design" but i don't believe in "creationism"

if you read the ten comandments, "God" talks about worshiping "other" deities, and worshiping "false idols"
because of the way it's translated, most people who read it in english, don't realize that "God" is actually saying those 2 things as 2 completely seperate commands
the Judeo-Christian "God" is actually admitting the existence of other deities, (that have power) and telling you not to worship them, IN ADDITION TO telling you to not worship those "false idol" deities that come from the human imagination

i personally know these other deities exist, because i can "heal" people, (i've actually made a cancer tumor shrink) i can see flashes of the future (more annoying than helpfull), read people's minds (certain people), and i can bend falling rain to keep people dry (i've only done it twice)

i definately believe in "inteligent design" in that i believe the universe was created by some sort of deity, but i do not believe in "creationism" in that i do not believe it was the Judeo-Christian God that made the universe, i do not believe the universe was made in 6 days and i definately do not believe the ridiculous theory that "noah's flood" was the great disaster that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs

If you do some reading on the interaction of spiritual beings with humans on the anti-deluvian Earth, the Nephilim etc, this would explain references to other "dieties". The difference between these and the YHWH of the Bible would be that these other spiritual beings were created by him (at least, according to YHWH).

Edit: I am starting to also lean to the understanding of the beginning of Genesis that the universe was not created in 6 days, potentially "re-created" or just our portion of the universe.

With a fair amount of evidence that there are things on this earth older than our history, it may be possible that there were prior creations on this planet that were wiped out and recreated, and we are just the most recent, and depending on the beliefs you subscribe to, the last.