Studio Monitors - Yes or No?

[timislegend]

"I never understood why people are so prone on getting a properly treated room for mixing.. It's really not THAT necessary at all..."


this is a blurry statement.

while it consists of an ignorance to something that is heavily practiced by a world of engineers... nearly every single engineer i work with (and have worked with in the past) has very little acoustic treatment in their home/project studio.

based on the lack of details and the illusion of ignorance ...he's kind of correct.

it really depends on who you ask... not every engineer will spend the money on acoustic treatment. instead, they might calibrate their room or use a proficient monitor placement.

the division is practically 50/50 (as are most concepts in the performance of digital audio).

It wasn't advice, ermz. the places I've mixed are treated to an extent, but not completely gung-ho. I've just never found it that important for some reason. For me, it's never made a 100% huge difference.. Just a little one. Idk, maybe I'm wrong and I SHOULD treat my room excessively.

please correct me if i'm wrong... these are opinions. i don't see any fact being inferred.

there might possibly be a lot of misinterpretation in an effort to dissolve any confusion and examine the truth by dominating with fancy rhetoric.

it seems NS simply has not collected enough evidence to agree with the prevailing argument.


i can reinforce this argument by saying... i have been a professional engineer for almost a decade and have worked in million dollar studios with world class engineers on award winning performances... mostly acoustically treated facilities.

but i can also protest the majority of these engineers (including myself) have worked in environments with a tremendous amount of disparities (like airport lobbies with a laptop and open ear headphones). both of which mixes resulted in outstanding performances with almost unidentifiable comparisons.

 

[Skinny Viking]

Tim

you're being a fun-sponge

 

[timislegend]

Tim

you're being a fun-sponge

 

[Melb_shredder]

As a noob somewhat, I can still attest to the importance of proper treatment... I cbf explaining... But worlds of difference comes to mind! A mate if mine bought opals and used them in a tiny arse cube of a room. Now that he's doing his album, he decided to treat his room. Everything is tight and focussed in the room and mixing is less a chore of compensating to now being a jump in and don't get worried anymore situation. Its great! Then when I come back to my untreated room... I want to cry! Lol

 

[Force666]

It's really not THAT necessary at all..

Is the statement that I referred to as "stating fact".

You can use all the "fancy" psuedo-intelligent words and stories to back up your side of the debate. But, the fact is, the proof is in the mix. The stories of who you worked with, and where are cool stories and all, but other than cool stories they don't really amount to much. Ermz has posted many a mix, that a lot of people on this forum will agree are some of the best mixes posted on this forum. He testifies that room-treatment has made more than a valuable contribution to his mixes. As do, most, if not all of the people in this forum that are producing professional quality mixes.

That's great and all, that you worked in "million dollar facilities", but were you mixing the records, assisting, or getting coffee? Cause all those things are very different. I guess i'm calling you out because you have a website that you offer "world-class" mastering, and run one of the "best" studios in the Bay Area, yet have not one single mix/master example on your site or myspace. Just makes me wonder.

 

[timislegend]

Is the statement that I referred to as "stating fact".

You can use all the "fancy" psuedo-intelligent words and stories to back up your side of the debate. But, the fact is, the proof is in the mix. The stories of who you worked with, and where are cool stories and all, but other than cool stories they don't really amount to much. Ermz has posted many a mix, that a lot of people on this forum will agree are some of the best mixes posted on this forum. He testifies that room-treatment has made more than a valuable contribution to his mixes. As do, most, if not all of the people in this forum that are producing professional quality mixes.

That's great and all, that you worked in "million dollar facilities", but were you mixing the records, assisting, or getting coffee? Cause all those things are very different. I guess i'm calling you out because you have a website that you offer "world-class" mastering, and run one of the "best" studios in the Bay Area, yet have not one single mix/master example on your site or myspace. Just makes me wonder.

i think it is unfair of you to attack my intelligence. there is no hostility on my end...

of course, i realize that ermz is well respected... i understand that anecdotes do not help in simplifying a discussion pertaining to audio production.

there are many accomplishments i am proud of in my career. this website you speak of is a new endeavor of mine which, so far has made me a great deal of success; not necessarily by extreme popularity but a success nonetheless. i am not on this forum to have a pissing contest. i have nothing to prove.

i am very new to metal genre and i presumed i would learn a lot from people that live and breath metal (like ermz) and i can say that i have learned a lot from him as an engineer.

i did not intend for my anecdote to come across as flagrant or conceded. it was only to discuss the difference between extreme measures and less than strict mixing practices.

i currently work for a studio that provides a team of engineers. everyone works together, where i come from. we also learn together and with all of our opinions as an aggregate...

if there is something personal i said ...i apologize.

 

[NSGUITAR]

My previous statements are not out of ignorance at all.. I've been in several studios, learned in several places with quite good engineers/producers, and the MAJORITY of them have agreed that it is not necessary to soundproof your room excessively, as long as you're familiar and understand your mixing environment. That was how I was TAUGHT. Everybody is taught different, and I don't think there is a right way, or a wrong way.

 

[Force666]

I didn't mean to attack your intelligence. And honestly, i'm not sure where I did so.

Didn't mean to come across hostile. Sorry if you read it that way. Was actually interested to hear the answers to the questions I asked.

 

[timislegend]

My previous statements are not out of ignorance at all.. I've been in several studios, learned in several places with quite good engineers/producers, and the MAJORITY of them have agreed that it is not necessary to soundproof your room excessively, as long as you're familiar and understand your mixing environment. That was how I was TAUGHT. Everybody is taught different, and I don't think there is a right way, or a wrong way.

i understand now.

and i apologize for any misunderstanding.

 

[NSGUITAR]

i understand now.

and i apologize for any misunderstanding.

No dude, you've actually been right on the dot with me. Some others are the ones who seem to misunderstand me, which is probably due to my lack of details in previous posts, since I don't take a ton of time to type out replies.

 

[Melb_shredder]

You said most engineers said you don't need to treat your room too EXCESSIVELY. But I doubt many would say don't use treatment. Some that they might consider adequate may seem like a lot to you! I know that just 4 bass traps was a big start for my mate until he added more treatment and things sounded even better. I don't think anyone would condone a nice big empty space without any treatment.

 

[NSGUITAR]

You said most engineers said you don't need to treat your room too EXCESSIVELY. But I doubt many would say don't use treatment. Some that they might consider adequate may seem like a lot to you! I know that just 4 bass traps was a big start for my mate until he added more treatment and things sounded even better. I don't think anyone would condone a nice big empty space without any treatment.

Indeed, that is what I said.. That's what I've been saying in the first place. I have sound treatment where I am, just not a lot. About as much as the majority of what the sound engineers I've worked with said is adequate. Well, maybe a little less, but that's due to this odd setup I have and would REALLY like help with.

 

[timislegend]

I didn't mean to attack your intelligence. And honestly, i'm not sure where I did so.

Didn't mean to come across hostile. Sorry if you read it that way. Was actually interested to hear the answers to the questions I asked.

i have never used the word "best" ...this is something you have misinterpreted.

you want me to answer if i have worked on a record? yes, i have... as a recording/mixing engineer.

i am originally from the dicipline of broadcast and post production however i have studied music production to a great extent... of course, i am always learning new things.

 

[timislegend]

Indeed, that is what I said.. That's what I've been saying in the first place. I have sound treatment where I am, just not a lot. About as much as the majority of what the sound engineers I've worked with said is adequate. Well, maybe a little less, but that's due to this odd setup I have and would REALLY like help with.

it seems a lot of opinions on this thread become misconstrued due to semantics.

 

[Force666]

ORATOR HAS ALREADY BECOME ONE OF THE MOST EXCLUSIVE RECORDING STUDIOS IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA.

Sorry for the misquote.

and we've gone from

have been a professional engineer for almost a decade and have worked in million dollar studios with world class engineers on award winning performances...

to

you want me to answer if i have worked on a record? yes, i have... as a recording/mixing engineer.

i am originally from the dicipline of broadcast and post production however i have studied music production to a great extent... of course, i am always learning new things.

I think if I had engineered on a "award winning performance" I would have no problem putting my cards on the table.

We can let it go at that.

 

[Skinny Viking]

 

[timislegend]

Sorry for the misquote.

and we've gone from



to



I think if I had engineered on a "award winning performance" I would have no problem putting my cards on the table.

We can let it go at that.

i don't follow... ?

am i supposed to prove to you that i have experience?

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I am surprised that the pros around here don't know the basic concept and theory of a good monitor setup. Sound accuracy is broken down into two regions, frequency domain, and time domain. When a monitor is woolly, scooped, harsh in the highs, mid heavy, you are looking at a frequency inaccuracy. When the sounds in the bass or mid frequencies are smeared together and there isn't much clarity, thats a time inaccuracy. The time domain is the most important part of monitoring than frequency. More expensive monitors don't have any flatter a frequency response than a cheap pair of monitors, rather they have a more accurate time domain. The time accuracy is a measurement of how delayed certain frequencies are from when they are actually sent to the speaker. The more bottom frequencies at that speakers response are most effected. The size of the monitor itself and the dimensions of the port/venting, as well as the speaker size and design effects the majority of the time delay, where the room from standing waves can effect the delay as well, its not as drastic. This is why you pay a premium for higher grade monitors, they put a lot more work into the design so that all information is being projected accurately when they are supposed to relative to time, this keeps accuracy. A speaker that is not time accurate will be blurry, muddy and lack punch, resolution/definition.

With time being the most important, as long as the speaker coloration is within ballpark levels, the coloration can be corrected or you could very easy adjust your hearing to that setup. The greatest example of time being more important to frequency is with the NS-10. They color the sound horribly but are revered as great monitors. Why? Because they are not forgiving and are highly detailed. Engineers that use them simply adjust their ears to their coloration. Your monitoring setup doesn't have to be flat, or even close, you just have to know how the setup colors certain frequencies and be aware of it when you mix, you will do this with every setup because no one setup is completely accurate, this is why when you use different monitors or a different room, you have to "get used to the setup" before you can mix on, basically acclimating your ears to that setup. Acoustic treatment serves to help maintain the most accurate frequency response and in sever cases, help prevent the room from causing standing waves that could hinder the time accuracy.

With that in mind if you have no treatment, but an ok room, and you do not have reference monitors, as in you are using a home stereo or a hi-fi system, reference monitors will make a much larger improvement. I went from a pair of $100 sony speakers/stereo combo, made of thin particle board. My mixes sucked so much ass. When I got a pair of BX8a's, the instant amount of things that I could hear that I couldn't before was unbelievable. I had also plugged my computer into our home theater setup and the hi-fi system while being more frequency accurate to my old sony, still wasn't as clear and detailed as my "new" monitors. Once I got used to them, which took about two months, my mixes were so much more detailed and I could never imagine spending that money on treatment to be using the same particle board speakers and seeing as drastic of a difference.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

anyone got a quick and easy link to Ermz' treatment thread(s) ?

edit: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/andy-sneap/448907-my-acoustic-treatment.html is this it? seems a bit older than what he's talking about in this thread

 

[Force666]

i don't follow... ?

am i supposed to prove to you that i have experience?

I guess. But, you can do whatever you want. You've basically used passive-aggressive name-dropping in all your replies. With your mentors, with who and where you've worked. Touting yourself off as "being somebody", without filling in the details that would let me/us judge that for ourselves. I was interested to hear what you've done and with who and where, but honestly i'm not going to "debate" it anymore. At this point, i'm saying prove yourself, or stfu about it.