Kenneth R.
Cináed
add the words "in metal" to all of the OP's statements and I almost agree. Jazz destroys SX in all categories. In metal, Zero Hour trumps them for polyrhythm and odd meters, and ephel duath... well, they're ephel duath.
Symphony X and odd-meter grooves, key changes, and polyrhythms
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Ken, the first two sentences of his post were, "I consider Symphony X to be at the top of the metal genre in songwriting, as they use techniques that few other bands utilize (successfully). Among these are odd-meter grooves, subtle key changes, and polyrhythms."
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Rullo is a big part of this, I think. He doesn't get the recognition he deserves simply because he doesn't use every song as an excuse to wank off (even though he totally could), but his sensibility pays off in delivering great music with the band. Symphony X would be VERY different without him. In a lot of "prog" music there's the all-too-common approach to odd times:
"One, two, three, fou--oh right, we're a prog band, drop the last 32nd note to make it proggy--wham, new measure, two, three..!"
For some reason, Symphony X is just better at this. Some bands (I won't name names so I don't derail the thread) just announce "wow we're a prog band! look! see?" way too much and after about 15 seconds I'm bored.
Anyway, you can tell how much more mechanical and flat Twilight in Olympus was with the other guy. He was a great player, luckily, but it wasn't the same band without Rullo. I happen to like that album a lot, but Romeo's right, it just doesn't have the same shine to it as the others, and the drumming has a big part in that.
"One, two, three, fou--oh right, we're a prog band, drop the last 32nd note to make it proggy--wham, new measure, two, three..!"
For some reason, Symphony X is just better at this. Some bands (I won't name names so I don't derail the thread) just announce "wow we're a prog band! look! see?" way too much and after about 15 seconds I'm bored.
Anyway, you can tell how much more mechanical and flat Twilight in Olympus was with the other guy. He was a great player, luckily, but it wasn't the same band without Rullo. I happen to like that album a lot, but Romeo's right, it just doesn't have the same shine to it as the others, and the drumming has a big part in that.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
As a whole, I agree with you. However, I do think the drumming on Looking Glass is very good. But yes, the other songs do suffer percussion-wise.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Definitely agree ^^^
When I was first getting into prog, I thought that the techniques you mentioned were totally awesome timing approaches. Now, it's predictable (which is exactly what it shouldn't be), and a lot of the time, does nothing for the song except throw off your nodding. If done well, like SX, it can be a very interesting approach.
The song Hyperventilate, by Frost, starts off in 7/8, and stays that way for a long time, but it's done so well, many would probably not even notice... and what's most important, is if it wasn't in 7/8, the song would sound completely different, and lose it's feel. I know that people are going to say, if you can't tell, what's the point? Well, that's the answer.
I also agree with the Rullo comments. I've always thought of him as an exceptional drummer, and V is definite proof. That album was godly on drums.
When I was first getting into prog, I thought that the techniques you mentioned were totally awesome timing approaches. Now, it's predictable (which is exactly what it shouldn't be), and a lot of the time, does nothing for the song except throw off your nodding. If done well, like SX, it can be a very interesting approach.
The song Hyperventilate, by Frost, starts off in 7/8, and stays that way for a long time, but it's done so well, many would probably not even notice... and what's most important, is if it wasn't in 7/8, the song would sound completely different, and lose it's feel. I know that people are going to say, if you can't tell, what's the point? Well, that's the answer.
I also agree with the Rullo comments. I've always thought of him as an exceptional drummer, and V is definite proof. That album was godly on drums.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Hyperventilate is a great example. I LOVE the beginning. I love the song until it turns into typical prog bullshit about 1/3 of the way through. It has moments of greatness after that, but the beginning... now THAT is awesome.
Dream Theater do those transitions on purpose, yes. They've even talked about it in commentaries before.
I particularly like rough transitions most of the time, and I think Dream Theater do a good job with them. They don't always do that, though, especially on the heavier groovier songs like Glass Prison and Stream of Consciousness.
As far as prog in general goes... in my personal experience, every prog band that I've fallen in love with (Symphony X included) has had their own distinct sound. If they ever sound too much like another band, they always leave me with a bad taste and lack the flow of a good prog band. This isn't because of any preconception; I think it's because to be a true prog band you have to work off inspiration, which usually requires having something specific in mind that you want to recreate with music.
Now, if you want to go hear some of the best prog ever, go listen to Liquid Tension Experiment.
Edit: Go listen to Scarred at 7:00 for some off-beat madness.
I particularly like rough transitions most of the time, and I think Dream Theater do a good job with them. They don't always do that, though, especially on the heavier groovier songs like Glass Prison and Stream of Consciousness.
As far as prog in general goes... in my personal experience, every prog band that I've fallen in love with (Symphony X included) has had their own distinct sound. If they ever sound too much like another band, they always leave me with a bad taste and lack the flow of a good prog band. This isn't because of any preconception; I think it's because to be a true prog band you have to work off inspiration, which usually requires having something specific in mind that you want to recreate with music.
Now, if you want to go hear some of the best prog ever, go listen to Liquid Tension Experiment.
Edit: Go listen to Scarred at 7:00 for some off-beat madness.
CantoX
Member
I think Sym X are the only prog metal band I like. I like a couple of songs from Evergrey, maybe 1 or 2 songs from Dream Theater but nothing else. All the odd-time madness is very cool to me, but when it gets to the wailing/bitch vocals I just turn it off. Theres some sort of stigma with prog bands where the vocalists have to retain their voices in the 5th register and up that I dislike lol. I like the progressive story lines a lot and the odd times. I like a lot of songs from a lot of prog metal and metal bands.. but just don't care too much other than those 1 or 2 songs of those bands.
And yes, I agree that it has a lot to do with the drummer. A friend of mine was learning jazz and he put this jazzy odd time beat in with a rhtyhm I made and it sounded so proggy.
And yes, I agree that it has a lot to do with the drummer. A friend of mine was learning jazz and he put this jazzy odd time beat in with a rhtyhm I made and it sounded so proggy.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Hey now! LTE is amazing.
Prog usually takes a lot of listening to get into, and you may not be putting enough time in to get to know the other songs. If you want some prog without really high vocals, you should give Walk in Mindfields by Ivanhoe a listen. It's a very good album, but it took me a long time to like... It's got some good grooves.
_Gentleman of_the Snow_
Prog' Drummer
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy LTE to a certain extent, but they are definitely not one of the best prog bands out there, imo.
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