The Economics Thread

The U.S. consumer was getting raped by the foreign product because they essentially enjoyed a monopoly in this market.

Britain was notorious for this. Later, Japan did it in electronics to us.

Are you by any chance referring to Japan's practice of dumping consumer electronics? Exactly how is the U.S. consumer "raped" by such practices? The alternative is forcing the U.S. consumer to pay higher prices while stifling innovation and shielding special interests from actual competition.

routinely has been caught subsidizing its industries who dump its products below the selling price found in China.

Good for the U.S. consumer, bad for U.S. special interests.

Before 1800 and the "Union" of Britain and Ireland, Ireland defended their industry and therefore grew in prosperity. After the "Union", Britain rammed "free trade" regulations down the throat of Ireland, eliminating every trade barrier so that England could buy Irish raw materials, dump English products into Ireland, they destroyed the Irish industry, wrecking the Irish economy and spreading unemployment and hunger throughout the nation.

The problem was not with free trade as such, but rather with England's destructive interventionist policies and its control of Ireland. For years the British government's stranglehold on Ireland's economy and its violation of Irish property rights distorted the economic structure and even led to excessive exploitation of land without regard for consequences. And the British government only exacerbated the potato blight after its onset, ultimately helping to turn a blight into a full-fledged famine. Among other things, heavy taxation for the procurement of wasteful public works projects and welfare programs was not only a drain on the Irish economy but also crowded out private charity. But the British government didn't just crowd out private charity indirectly. In some cases, they actually turned away ships full of food from America. Examples can be multiplied.

England bit the free trade fruit and nearly starved itself in WW I. War leaves free trade zealots looking like lambs being led to the slaughter.

England had become so dependent on imported food (mostly from America) due to the elimination of its corn laws in the name of free trade, that by the first World War she could barely feed 1/4 of her population.

You're going to have to explain how repeal of protectionist policies is tied to the fact that "by the first World War she could barely feed 1/4 of her population." I'm not familiar with that particular historical episode, but I suspect you're referring to some kind of food shortage around that time. Even if what you say is true as far as that goes, it's hardly an argument that supports protectionism over free trade. I could just as well make similar arguments against protectionism. Look up a little something called 'food riots'.

Japan, they always have thumbed their nose at western economics and free trade.

The result?

Japan leads the world in autos, cameras, semiconductors, optics, and are aiming for passenger jets. They now make 35% of the Boeing Dreamliner and have extorted Boeing's wing technology. One of many examples.

How exactly do you mean to tie Japan's protectionism to its relative competitiveness? They make products that people want to buy, simple as that.

Our dollar is going in the tank because we do have "free trade".

This is nonsense. The dollar is tanking because of bad monetary policy.

Since we no longer are "stupid" and removed all taxes off of imports, guess what percent of our GNP imports now represent?

About 20%. 20% of our imported economy generates essentially zero tax revenue. We used to average about 4% imports as percent of our GNP back when we were "stupid" and taxed those imports.

So what? Exactly how would taxing imports represent a boon for our economy?

More than one economist with a PhD behind his name has noted that the down fall of American manufacturing has more to do with the destruction of its protective system than it becoming "fat and lazy", and I can name historians from other nations that made the exact same observation.

First of all, there's nothing sacred about manufacturing jobs. Real growth over time would naturally lead to a decline in manufacturing jobs given that less input is required to produce a given amount of output. This is bad how? But even if I grant that manufacturing is important, the loss of manufacturing jobs has not been accompanied by a comparable loss in manufacturing output. As a matter of fact, it's been accompanied by booms in manufacturing output, which is evidence of growth. Furthermore, much of the loss in manufacturing jobs can be attributed to a slump in U.S. exports and the recession at the turn of the century (something we'd expect to have an effect on employment).

Over 500,000 Americans were documented as having lost their jobs as a direct consequence of NAFTA. It is estimated that at least twice as many workers lost their jobs from indirect consequences.

Oh I see. So if something has the words 'free' and 'trade' in it, then it must be a prime example of free trade, right? NAFTA is hardly a free trade agreement (in fact, it just so happens to contain something like 900 pages of tariff rates if I'm not mistaken). At any rate, the fact that some jobs are destroyed is not inherently detrimental to our economy by any stretch of the imagination. Technology has eliminated millions of jobs in the U.S., but the American worker is no less employable now because of that fact. What a pity that the light bulb was invented, right? After all, think about all the jobs that were lost in the kerosene lamp industry. Give me a break. And anyway, if you look at the bigger picture the average annual rate of unemployment in the U.S. fell steadily from the time of NAFTA's approval until 2001.
 
People forget there's a difference.

Support for free trade is a natural corollary to support for free markets. After all, to restrict free trade is to restrict the freedom of consenting adults to transact in any way they wish so long as they don't violate the right of others to do the same.
 
First of all, there's nothing sacred about manufacturing jobs. Real growth over time would naturally lead to a decline in manufacturing jobs given that less input is required to produce a given amount of output. This is bad how? But even if I grant that manufacturing is important, the loss of manufacturing jobs has not been accompanied by a comparable loss in manufacturing output. As a matter of fact, it's been accompanied by booms in manufacturing output, which is evidence of growth. Furthermore, much of the loss in manufacturing jobs can be attributed to a slump in U.S. exports and the recession at the turn of the century (something we'd expect to have an effect on employment).


On monetary policy you seem to know what you're talking about, but to claim that there is nothing sacred about manufacturing jobs is ill-informed. When you do not do your own production (on a national level) you are at the mercy of another country. That is an incredibly dumb position to be in, as it leaves you in a different form of debt. It doesn't matter if goods are slightly cheaper coming from a poor country, because a service based economy cannot work long term. Once the country starts running a trade deficit (read:debt) it is only a matter of time before the economy starts to tank even with an otherwise responsible monetary policy.

Support for free trade is a natural corollary to support for free markets. After all, to restrict free trade is to restrict the freedom of consenting adults to transact in any way they wish so long as they don't violate the right of others to do the same.

Free trade is a misnomer anyway, because unless all nations involved have the same environmental/workers comp law etc, and same currency values, it's not an even playing field.
 
Apparently I was expected to comment here, though I'm really not that well-informed on economics aside from a personal finance class and moderate keepings-up with the recent economic news, so my comments will probably be brief.

The problem with a lot of this stuff is that what's good in theory and what's practical in reality can differ so vastly. Like most people here I'm in favor of free trade, since protectionist bullshit like tariffs and subsidies destroys good industries in disadvantaged countries so that shittier ones can thrive, and has virtually none of the benefits of socialism in that it doesn't really prevent monopolies and trusts from forming.

However, the world has such a long history of protectionist politics that it's become like an addiction that countries have to wean themselves off of. Moreover, as long as there are uncooperative countries out there (i.e. Russia and China), efforts at international free trade agreements are going to be perpetually hobbled until those giant oligarchies loosen their grip on their people and allow a culture of freedom to develop. The problem of free trade is just a mess these days.
 
I don't know much about economics; pretty much all of it comes from history. I'm mostly just reading this thread hoping to learn something. I'm with Cyth, though, in the little Cyth/Meh battle.

As far as Britain in World War I, it's true they couldn't feed themselves but it's also true that after the repeal of the Corn Laws (which protected British agriculture with a tariff) wiped out British agriculture and committed them further to industrial production they fucking ruled the world; they relied on imports, yes, but then again, it's an island with 60 million people on it. Where are you going to grow that much food? So as far as national interests go, I would say relying on imports was a decent decision that happened to backfire a bit much later.
 
I really don't see how it's a big deal for countries to rely on each other for imports. How often is it that a large, independent country that supplies others just cuts another country off, saying "WELL FUCK YOU, YOU CAN JUST STARVE"?
 
Before 1800 and the "Union" of Britain and Ireland, Ireland defended their industry and therefore grew in prosperity. After the "Union", Britain rammed "free trade" regulations down the throat of Ireland, eliminating every trade barrier so that England could buy Irish raw materials, dump English products into Ireland, they destroyed the Irish industry, wrecking the Irish economy and spreading unemployment and hunger throughout the nation.

The Irish left Ireland and its free trade catastrophe for protectionist America by the millions before they also starved to death.

England bit the free trade fruit and nearly starved itself in WW I. War leaves free trade zealots looking like lambs being led to the slaughter.

England had become so dependent on imported food (mostly from America) due to the elimination of its corn laws in the name of free trade, that by the first World War she could barely feed 1/4 of her population.

Then war with Germany broke out and U-boats started sinking her imported food supply. England faced starvation.

Even Adam Smith wasn't so dumb as to advocate a nation free trade itself into a position of starvation during war.

But you didn't offer a solid argument against free trade; all you did was demonstrate how an imperialist nation subdued another and happened to implement free trade policies in a harmful manner.
 
Obviously the lifting of trade regulations/tariffs/whatever can be used as a weapon on other countries. But that doesn't mean free trade is a bad idea itself, just that it shouldn't be implemented for the wrong reasons. Once it's in place, I think it's safe to say that the world as a whole benefits in the long run.
 
As I stated before, free trade is only truly free when all businesses involved are playing under the same set of rules and with equal measure of exchange, therefore international free trade as it stands now is not really free.
 
I really don't see how it's a big deal for countries to rely on each other for imports. How often is it that a large, independent country that supplies others just cuts another country off, saying "WELL FUCK YOU, YOU CAN JUST STARVE"?
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How bad is it in Cuba anyway? I know we've sanctioned/embargoed the shit out of them, and most Cubans are poor as dirt, but I haven't heard of the people there starving in great numbers like in North Korea or something. And North Korea gets food aid despite the sanctions, but of course their government doesn't give a shit whether the people starve or not, and it seems that a lot of the food gets swiped up by various people and either hoarded or sold for profit.
 
On a new topic, has anyone read about this before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Assuming that the "government payout" part of it doesn't consist of merely writing out checks to people (which would be fucking stupid), this seems like a much less confusing, and therefore more efficient, way of sorting out taxes and government benefits. It shouldn't be a flat tax though, of course.
 
Well unless he had a sensible reason for it, and not just "LOL ITZ FAIRER FOR EVRY1NE", I couldn't care less.
 
I'm having a hard time imagining what kind of legitimate arguments would go to support it, aside from something along the lines of increasing actual tax revenue by decreasing tax fraud. From a utilitarian perspective, it should be clear that because of how much disposable income rich people have, paying a higher percentage of taxes is of negligible harm to them compared to the benefit of giving many more poorer people financial breathing room.

I would like to read that book at some point though.
 
I think we are going at taxes all wrong. There shoudln't be an income tax.

How do you propose the government to have revenue to pay for things like public works systems and public safety personnel?

Taxes are necessary to keep society running. I don't believe in egregious taxes like luxury taxes or cigarette taxes or whatever, but I don't mind an income tax. The thing that needs to happen is that the tax code needs to be reformed significantly to eliminate all these tax loopholes so everyone is on an even playing field.