The End Records, Novembers Doom & CNN...

Heavy metal makeover
Our experts shake up an indie record label's business plan.

By David Whitford, FSB Magazine
March 21 2007: 9:40 AM EDT

(FSB Magazine) -- Never before in the history of the planet has there been so much music floating around, of all kinds and easily accessible. Thanks to iTunes and its cousins, from YouTube (great for live concert clips) and MySpace (unsigned bands) to satellite radio, Internet radio and the vast underworld of illegal file sharing - well, as Aretha almost said, What you want, baby, you got.

As a music lover, Andreas Katsambas, 35, can appreciate all that. He remembers what a struggle it was to get his fill of his favorites - Pink Floyd, AC/DC and Slayer, in that order - when he was growing up on the Mediterranean island of Cyprus. Which is why a part of him is just as thrilled with the modern digital cornucopia as the rest of us are. But as CEO of The End Records (theendrecords.com), a nine-year-old heavy-metal label in New York City, Katsambas fears for the life of his company.

The experts
Nicholas Butterworth
was CEO of MTV Interactive and now runs Travelistic, a travel video site. (travelistic.com)

Dan Levy
runs Levity, a New York-based company that produces Web sites for Bob Dylan, Pearl Jam and other stars. (danlevy@levity.com)

Peter spellman
serves as director of career development at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. (berklee.edu)

On the face of it, you might think the guy's in pretty good shape. After launching in his bedroom in San Diego in 1999 and shifting operations to Salt Lake City in 2002, Katsambas moved this past summer to new headquarters in the trendy East Williamsburg neighborhood in Brooklyn. (Incredibly, 13 of The End's 14 loyal employees followed.)

Small biz makeover: Flooding the market
Sales in 2006 were $3.5 million, up 25 percent over the year before, and the company is profitable. In December, Katsambas signed a North America licensing agreement with celebrated Finnish monster-rockers Lordi, whose members dress as mummies and vampires. Lordi's "Hard Rock Hallelujah" took first prize at the 2006 Eurovision Song Contest, an annual pan-European jamboree that launched the careers of ABBA and Celine Dion.

But Katsambas worries. When Tower Records folded in October, The End lost a major distributor that was more friendly to indie labels than are mainstream giants Best Buy (Charts) and Wal-Mart (Charts). The fallout was immediate. "Suddenly all the big chains got very tight with their budgets," Katsambas says. Sadly, he can't count on small record stores to pick up the slack. Hundreds of those have closed in the past several years, he says, "and you don't see any new ones opening up."

Meanwhile, back in Brooklyn, expenses are through the roof. The move from Salt Lake cost $30,000. His $6,000 monthly office rent is twice what he used to pay. Internet access is considerably more expensive in New York, taxes are higher, even trash pickup is an extra $200 per month. "Every month I sit down with my accountant," Katsambas laments, "and she says, 'Things are tight. How do we make it work?' "

He's looking for answers to basic questions. "How do we maintain a steady cash flow?" he wonders. "Where do we allocate our available budget?" If the traditional record-label business model - investing in studio sessions and concert tours and making the money back on CD and record sales - is dead, and practically everyone agrees that it is, then what's next for The End?

Katsambas checks his e-mail from bed every morning, even before he turns on the light. He isn't panicking - yet. " In times of crisis, I make the best decisions," he says. But he needs a roadmap.

Sales
Over two days, three industry experts recruited by FSB climb the steep steps to The End's second-floor offices to meet with Katsambas and his sales VP, John Cariaso. First up is Nicholas Butterworth, 39. He arrives wearing jeans and a black T-shirt with VEGAS inscribed on the front, and quickly blends right in. Butterworth made his industry bones by running the music Web site SonicNet. When MTV bought SonicNet in 1999, Butterworth became CEO of MTV Interactive Group. These days he's a part-time deejay and full-time entrepreneur. His latest project is Travelistic.com, a video site for travelers.

Katsambas takes Butterworth on a quick tour of the adjacent warehouse, where scary-looking kids with extra holes in their bodies (Katsambas is the only staffer whose skin is neither painted nor punctured), some on skateboards, are picking and packing CDs and mailing them all over the world. Katsambas started this business within a business because he wasn't happy with the mail-order distribution his label was getting from third parties. Today it's the biggest metal music mail-order site on the Web, handling dozens of labels in addition to The End and accounting for two-thirds of company sales and all its profits. "If it wasn't for mail order," Katsambas admits, "the label wouldn't work."

Back in The End's plywood-paneled conference room, sparsely decorated with a Salvador Dali beach scene print, Butterworth asks, "Out of total sales for the label, what percentage are digital?"

"One percent," says Cariaso, the sales guy. "Metal and hard-core fans would much rather buy a full CD. They want to be able to read the lyrics and listen to the whole album." That's a mixed blessing, replies Butterworth. On the one hand, it means The End is less vulnerable to digital piracy than the major labels are. Then again, digital sales generate 10 percent of total sales at a typical major label - not just singles that go for 99 cents on iTunes but also licensed ringtones that can sell for several dollars a pop.

"I think you should continue to investigate digital sales," says Butterworth. "The fact that digital hasn't taken off among this audience doesn't mean that it's not still going to be meaningful." He suggests experimenting on The End's own Web site rather than waiting for iTunes to figure it out.

Maybe the solution is digital content not available on CD, he suggests, or digital prereleases available one month before a new CD hits the streets - but only to preferred customers. "Your first, best customer is somebody who already likes the band," Butterworth explains. "But then I'd rather market to somebody who already has records from The End and knows the label."

Another lesson from the majors: The End should think about moving into a different sort of partnership with artists, where they can participate in touring income as well as merchandise such as hats, T-shirts and collectibles. Katsambas jumps at the idea: "That's something we want to establish as well - the merchandising part for sure."

"You don't want to get into a bidding war for merchandise rights with established artists," Butterworth cautions. "It's even worse than bidding for music rights. It's more risky, and you can get stuck with inventory that you don't want. But maybe you could offer [a partnership deal] to new bands you're developing. They'd be ecstatic, and you could grow with them."

Butterworth also wonders if there's a way to add some higher-margin products to the mix. "Either reissues or greatest-hits records or cover records and concept albums," he muses. Katsambas looks skeptical. Butterworth grimaces a little. "I mean, all these can be cheesy," he says. "It will never be a hit and deliver the upside in the same way but, you know, TVT Records (tvtrecords.com) was built on recordings of songs from TV. They sell every year at insanely high margins."

Marketing
After lunch comes Dan Levy, 48, a former management consultant who now builds Web sites for rock stars, including Bob Dylan, Pearl Jam, Patti Smith and Bruce Springsteen. Levy checked out the Web site before he got here, listened to some clips, found at least one band he liked, Estradasphere ("weird band, weird name, major musicians," says Katsambas), and ordered a CD.

He says he was struck by the large number of international bands on the label. "I was thinking it would be really neat on the Web site if you had a world map that showed where all the bands come from," he says. Katsambas nods approvingly and writes down the suggestion.

"When I go to the Web site, I'd like to be able to find out more about the bands," says Levy. "If you have bands that are really motivated, you should make them create more content for your site. You've got the kind of audience that really wants to know more. You can create original content like audio interviews, or just Q&As, or open up the Q&As to the fans."

Levy wants to know if The End has thought about any other places it could sell CDs besides record shops. "You're probably not going to get this music into Starbucks (Charts)," he allows. "But is there some other retail environment that your audience goes to? Maybe it's not skateboard or surf shops, but it has to be someplace."

"This is the dilemma I'm facing," says Katsambas. "There is no audience for this music. We've created it. There was nothing like Estradasphere before."

Levy isn't buying it. "The teenagers who like this music now are very similar to teenagers who liked [1970s progressive rockers] Emerson, Lake & Palmer and" - he pauses for a beat - "have since grown up to be journalists and consultants. There's a mentality of music appreciation. It can't be that your audience is so alienated that they don't shop in stores and go places."

Licensing
Last up is Peter Spellman, 49, director of career development at the Berklee College of Music in Boston and author of two books on the music industry, including "The Self-Promoting Musician" (Berklee Press, $24.95).

Spellman sports a black ribbed pullover, a pencil mustache and a goatee. "I think it's always wise to be looking at the low-hanging fruit," he says expansively. For example, Katsambas could generate a tidy revenue stream by licensing The End songs for TV, film and videogames. "Just focus on plugging the songs and then outsource the administration for a 5 percent fee," he urges, "so you don't have to worry about the details so much."

"I totally agree," says Katsambas, sounding not quite convinced. "This is something I need to explore. But you know, with the move to New York ..."

"I totally understand," says Spellman, not letting up. "But you need to learn as much as you can about licensing. You should also figure out as many ways as possible to make the fan a co-creator in the success of these acts. It can be as little as getting fans involved in selecting what single gets pushed to radio. It can be deciding which one of three graphic images gets selected for a CD cover. The artists who are open to that are going to find that it's the most powerful solidifier of loyalty ever."

"Keep doing what you're doing," Spellman says, summing up. Here he's on the same page with Butterworth and Levy. All three consultants agree that the Lordi signing is a key development, one that could make or break The End. "My opinion?" says Spellman. "Seeing everything you've done so far - the smart decisions that have been made, the infrastructure you've built, the contacts you've made - you've got the ingredients to now put a large act into that and amplify that success."

A few weeks later we caught up with Katsambas by phone at a music industry trade show in Cannes. He told us about one cash-generating idea he had already implemented: publication of a $40 limited-edition book/CD combo tied to the release of The Novella Reservoir, the latest album from the dark-metal band Novembers Doom. Katsambas is also working to expand international distribution of his mail-order catalog. Next checkpoint: the Lordi release in March. Stay tuned. We promise to follow this story right through to the end.

Our consultants suggested everything from selling CDs in skate shops to offering digital sneak previews to committed fans. Please e-mail your thoughts to FSB's Makeover editor at fsb_mail@timeinc.com.

Could your business use a makeover? In general, successful Makeover candidates are profitable small companies with at least $1 million in annual gross revenues. To submit your firm for consideration, e-mail the FSB makeover editor. Please describe your business briefly, provide your most recent and projected revenues, and explain why you think your company would benefit from a Makeover.
 
When I did some browsing, I came across this piece of a draft version of the article:

"A few weeks later we caught up with Katsambas by phone at a music industry trade show in Cannes. He told us about one cash-generating idea he had already implemented: publication of a $40 limited-edition book/CD combo tied to the release of The Novella Reservoir, the latest album from the dark-metal band Novembers Doom - who sound like the more well known European acts My Dying Bride, Opeth and Anathema."

Interesting how that got deleted in the final version. :)

Seriously, the most interesting paragraph I saw was the description of how much the move to NY cost, and how much almost every aspect of the business is more expensive there. Makes me wonder why Andreas moved in the first place. Surely the postal system isn't any faster there!

Ken
 
pretty interesting stuff to read. Omega and The End are great!

Surprised they didn't mention sort of a loyalty bonus, they are already keeping records of what people order and there are probably plenty of people who sometimes order at omega, and sometimes elsewhere. You want that extra business. Wouldn't be hard to give people extra promo stuff if they order above a certain amount. Or: everytime you order you get credits, and with those credits you can get special stuff etc.
 
I cannot answer for Andreas or The End Records in general, but I believe their move was deemed necessary for certain business reasons involving their new distributor and stuff. I think if it wasn't deemed really necessary they probably would not have made the move. But I agree, it's too bad that they're having to deal with all of that extra overhead cost because it surely doesn't help matters.
 
I'm sorry, I need to voice my opinion on this... Be warned, this won't be pretty, and I know this is a sensitive area, so it may be deleted by the moderator, but this is MY opinion, and the last time I checked, I'm still free to post it.

I'm not in the band, but I see the struggle first hand that the guys go through, trying to squeeze pennies for traveling support, and when they don't get it, it comes out of their pockets, which takes away from their families.

This article reads like a sob story. Boo-Hoo. New York is expensive, and if they didn't know that going into the move, then they have larger problems then CD sales. So now, with the new expenses, the bands get less, and The End Records can make another 3.5 million (or more) next year in sales (and yes, I realize that's not their profit margin.) Everyone seems to make money off of the band, BUT the band!

He's some advice for The End, and I'm not even an expert. How about getting the bands videos played on MTV? I mean, the boys gave them 2 to choose from so far, for FREE. I know this, because coming out of pocket, I basically helped pay for them. I see bands on MTV every week I never heard of, and that don't tour, maybe take some of that 3.5 Mil and BUY some TV time.

Oh, but they do buy time... I've seen the Lordi commercial for their CD on Headbangers Ball every 10 minutes. Where's the commercial for the new Novembers Doom CD? It looks like the fate of the company is in the hands of Lordi, and the other bands will be left behind, in some degree. It's already happening with a show of favoritism in the commercial advertising. Rock n' Roll Hallelujah.

I understand, the label feels there's more sales potential in a band like Lordi, but what a shame if a brilliant CD like "The Novella Reservoir" won't get the proper push it deserves. The label themselves have called the new ND CD "Career defining." OK, so get behind it, get the videos on MTV, and take some of that profit the label makes, and support a great band they already have. What a shame if this CD gets less attention because of the Lordi push.

So why should I have such a strong opinion about this, since I'm not even in the band? Because it effects me directly. When my husband has to dish out cash from his pocket for touring expenses, videos, merchandise, websites and a hundred other things I can't recall at the moment, and we struggle to make ends meet in our house, I don't feel sorry for a record label who cries when their profit margin was generated by the hard work, and the PERSONAL SACRIFICE from the bands they have, and their families. Isn't the old saying something like "You need to spend money, to make money?"

Oh, and who had the idea for the book? I think those who read this forum know the answer to that.
 
I know that part of the problem is because we don't tour enough...supposedly. We'd love to tour more. Playing in front of people is basically what we're doing this for, because it's sure not for financial gain. But the problem is that it's not just so simple as saying, "Okay, let's go tour our asses off." Aside from the fact that we're all (except Vito) in our mid-Thirties and like it or not have to be a bit more responsible about our lives than just living like nomadic paupers just to be rock-n-roll stars....the fact is that it's very hard for a band who plays music like we do to really get enough lucrative gigs to warrant doing much touring. And we can no longer afford to keep paying out of pocket to go play for 25 people in Podunk, USA for no money and a pizza. If lots of touring is the only ticket we have to being taken seriously in the business and getting our videos played and our cds sold, then I guess we're just fucked.

We have upped our live profile considerably though, in the past couple of years, at least compared to how ND used to be. Up 'til the Gathering tour in 2004, ND was lucky if we played five times a year. We'd like to play even more than we do now but again as I said, the shows have to be good and worth it....and we're not talking like getting major $$$ and 500 attendees, we're just talking about enough compensation to cover gas and rental costs and a decent crowd of appreciative metal fans.

I honestly don't know everything about how the whole MTV thing really works. I've heard different stories from different people in the biz. I've been told that we won't get played if we're not out there touring. That might be true, I suppose....but more and more lately I've seen bands getting airplay who not only aren't touring but haven't toured here in forever (My Dying Bride, anyone?) Does MDB even have proper distro in the U.S. these days, I'm not sure? Yet their video has gotten play recently on Headbangers Ball. Now, we may not have the cred or clout or whatever that people perceive MDB to have so this isnt about them getting played instead of us.....my point is, they're getting played without any U.S. touring at all here since '97, so the theory of "you gotta tour to get tv time" seems kinda iffy, I dunno. But again, I admit, this is an area I don't really have the answers to.

I don't really take issue with the bands The End Records signs. If they sign a band that gives the label a higher profile and makes them more successful then that's great, as long as it helps to benefit ourselves, Agalloch, and our other labelmates, rather than just leaving the rest of us in the dust.

As for those ideas and suggestions that those "experts" made in the article to Andreas, I think some of them are logical and would be worth trying. We're definitely game for helping them out in ways if they're interested. I do think it'd be cool if they made their website a bit more interesting and interactive, with online exclusives and Q & A's with bands and giveaways and other sorts of stuff. I even liked the idea of having fans vote on stuff like what the "single" should be from a new cd and so forth. Hell if they did all that stuff involving Voivod, as a fan you'd better believe I'm gonna take part! :)

Well anyhow, all I can say is that at this stage of the game, ND are doing our best to be as active as we can be, while still trying to retain some standards and keep this fun for us and not put us into bankruptcy. Things are getting slightly better in terms of better offers for gigs, tours, fests, but it's still a battle and still fewer and further between than we'd like. With support from the fans as well as the label, we'll be able to keep doing this and building up our name. I cannot stress enough the importance of that support.
 
You know, I can't argue with my wife on any of this. She's put up with a lot my shit for many, many years, and sacrificed a lot for me to continue doing this, and she's been wonderful about it all, and stood behind me, and continues to do so. I'm very lucky, as a lot of wives may not be some understanding.

I can understand both sides of the coin. We do struggle to keep this going, and we all sacrifice a lot, including our wives, girlfriends, families, jobs... It's not cheap to sustain a band these days. Not when you take things to a higher level, and attempt to become more professional at it. Everything becomes more expensive when you raise the bar, and the quality.

I'd love to "live" off of the music, but realistically, it's hard for a band to do that these days, so first and foremost, we do it for the pure love of the music. That's why we call this a glorified hobby, and sustaining a hobby cost's money. Saying that, when other people profit from a hobby we dish out personal cash for, It should come with more compromise and understanding. Since we're not a band who can tour as much as we would like, do to "real life" then I do believe a plan should be in place to use other means as getting heard, then touring alone.

I agree with Arline on the videos. Since we can't tour, I wish there was a better effort being made to air the videos. I watch Headbangers Ball every week, and more then 50% of the videos shown, are NON touring bands. The one thing I do notice, the majority of the bands who get played, are those that their labels are running commercials every week. Since we can't tour, maybe the support should be for running commercials of the new disc, and getting the videos to air instead.

We've been an underdog band from day one. It's always been an uphill battle through the industry. No matter how good our CD's are, they never quite reach the level the reviews claim they should. Maybe it's exposure, or maybe it's just the genre pigeon hole. Either way, I think there are ways to push this band onto the scene, and get more exposure...

So, here's an interesting question for you forum readers... What would you like to see from a band on their website? What sort of interaction would you like to see happen? Give us some ideas you feel would help build curiosity to bring new people in to check out the band?

Antzor, I loved the idea of some sort of loyalty program. You shuld contact The End with that directly. It's brilliant. I'd love to incorporate something like that with our site, but it doesn't quite work in the same respect...

Maybe some sort of "fan club" with exclusive product? I'd love to hear more ideas from you cats...
 
I love the idea for a Novembers Doom fan club. I can't really think of any ways to bring people in, though. You have the book, a forum on the one of the largest metal communities on the internet... band members post here regularly, you have MySpace accounts.

The only things I could think of would be for those that are already fans of the band. Setlists for each show of the tour (including previous tours) on the live dates section. Possibly a poll on the website to vote for "favorite songs" to alternate on the tours.

Besides that stuff, I can't really think of anything.
 
I can't speak for my bandmates on this, only my personal opinion, but I don't wan't people to get the impression that I hate our record label or that I don't think they've done us any good because they have. Naturally we disagree with them on some things and we've had our issues with each other (the label and the band) over the years but that's sort of to be expected. It's the nature of the beast. The End has helped us and garned the band more attention and better distribution throughout the world, and they helped make things like backing our idea to do the book and special package for TNR, and there's something to be said for that.

I'm not concerned about the Lordi thing as others seem to be. I understand that the label needs to try and find big sellers and big names in order to keep the label profitable and afloat, which serves all of us. My concern is only that my band and our new album gets the attention and push that it deserves as well. And if that all banks on the "tour tour tour" mentality then I guess we're screwed.

But we've tried to make up for some of that non-presence on the road by doing other things like being more communicative with the public online, making music videos and putting up live clips on YouTube, etc. I'd like to continue and further those sorts of things too. Paul and I have been discussing things like the whole DVD thing and trying to get that moving along quicker, with hopes that the DVD could help us some. Though, problem is, that's probably not gonna help as much in terms of garnering new fans. Which is where touring comes from...and we've been over that already.

So I have a question for you guys, just out of curiosity.....

What bands could you really see Novembers Doom touring with, and doing successfully on, here in the United States? And keep in mind, don't say things like "My Dying Bride, Anathema, and ND" because what I'm meaning are bands that actually tour here and have a strong presence on the road, not "dream tours" involving us and two or three other bands who don't (and probably won't) tour here. Are there any bands out there currently making a strong live presence who you could honestly see ND fitting in well with in terms of crowd exceptance?
 
Hey guys...
Ok, I am going to state my opinion on getting more attention for Novembers Doom, since you asked for it!!!!

For starters, you guys need to try to get on bigger shows.
I can't tell you how many times I have seen a line-up and gone, "Why the hell aren't Novembers Doom on that bill!!" (IE - Katatonia & Moonspell, Therion, Kreator, King Diamond, etc, etc...).

I would certainly think that the label should be looking out for you guys and trying to get you on bigger package tours that roll through Chicago or the midwest.

Otherwise, do you guys ever call clubs to get on bills where you think you would be a fit? I know we have all been to shows where we see some barely known band supporting a major headlining touring metal band. No need to mention names. Though, on the flipside, that band probably called the club to get on the bill because there is no way the club would have known about the band otherwise.

A lot of my background as a musician and former promoter comes from the punk rock scenes in Chicago and Champaign, IL. I know things in those scenes are a lot more DIY (Do-It-Yourself) in nature than things seem to be in the metal scene (IE - you see a HELL of a lot more punk bands who flyer and self promote than you do metal bands). That's not to say that Novembers Doom and other Chicago metal bands don't self-promote, though I must say I haven't exactly seen many flyers for local metal gigs.

Sorry for the long rant. I know I can be long winded!
 
Ihave to agree with Jason here....being involved in the DIY punk scene for many many years and the metal scene. There is a sense of laziness in the metal scene for promoting shows and the band itself. there have been a zillion shows where there were bands I have never even heard of and after the show..never heard or seen again. Like the Kreator/Vader show...Therion...all these shows had just horrid opening acts...basically third rate college/high school kids playing in a band...that will probably break up a few weeks after that one show they got from a lucky break. A phone call can go a long way.

The MTV thing is odd. I have hear many different things on how to get your vid on there...from pay per play to the label doing stuff to get it on there. Mostly the label it seems is the one who can get it on there better than the band itself trying to call and call. I am sure they have a zillion bands calling every day trying to get vids played. Unfortunatly...our version of what is metal is far different that what MTV calls metal nowadays. I record the Headbangers Ball each week and watch it in fast forward to see who was on....on a good day I get to see maybe one video. You guys should try to get a hold of Comcast Cable and get your vid on the OnDemand Section. They have a great selection of vids on there.

Everyone is going to have thier own way of telling you how to get your name out there. My opinion on web pages is that...I rarely go to bands sites since most of them never get updated. I grew tired of them..or they put so much fancy graphics on them they take forever to load...dont want to waste my time on that mess.
 
No problem about the rant, it's not nearly as long as mine lol Thanks for your opinions, Jason.

As I've mentioned before on the subject of getting on national shows, unfortunately it's not as simple as saying "Hey, we would fit great on that Katatonia show, let's call up the promoter and tell them to put us on it." It only it were that simple *sigh* Most promoters already have bands or agents that they deal with who are lined up to play those shows, and many times the local opener who gets on those shows winds up paying-to-play, by having to purchase and sell a certain number of tickets. I order to get onto these shows, you have to do either one of two things-- pay to play, or have a connection with someone booking the show who'll be willing to put you on there. And knowing people in the headlining bands means pretty much nothing. We are friends with some of these bands who come through on tour, and they were unable to get us on the bill. The local promoters already had their own acts lined up to do it, usually pay-to-play bands which means a guaranteed amount of cash for the promoter.

Certain other shows, lesser gigs at clubs in the city, the promoter or club expects us to play for free without a soundcheck and maybe we'd get a few drink tickets and some pizza. As much as I love to play, this is where the whole matter of "having standards" comes in, as I've dealt with having to play shit shows in this stupid town for nearly twenty years now, and at this point I think we deserve a little bit better than that. If other people don't agree thats fine, but I set my own standards and I'll live with the consequences of them.

The reason you see "lesser" bands as you put it rather than ND opening these shows is because those bands pay-to-play. Not only do we refuse to pay-to-play but we don't even have the money to do that if we wanted to, not in our own pockets. Most promoters don't care about making a logical match with their openers, especially since they view the opening act as a bit of a throwaway most times anyhow (how many times have you gotten to the Metro or House Of Blues for a major show only to find that the opening band has already come and gone?) They'd rather put on a nobody band who'll pay them $500 or $1000 to be on the show, than put us on the bill because we "make more sense musicially" to be there. That's just the way the business is. Now and then you get a smart promoter who'll take that chance which is why we've wound up occasionally on good bills playing with bands like Opeth or whatever. But that seems to be happening less and less these days.

So the thing is, when you say "you need to try and get on bigger shows", the truth is we DO TRY, all the time. Chicago has never been particularly kind to us when it comes to getting good gigs, very few people care about us here, and we've basically accepted that which is why we rarely play out here. When the good offers and honest promoters come along we take them which is why we're doing Powerfest, and the Cruz Del Sur fest in June.

And another thing, leading back to my question I asked in my previous post.....another problem is that I don't see too many shows coming through where I feel we'd be a "good fit". That's why I wanted to know some suggestions about that from you guys. Do you think we could go over well with a Shadows Fall type crowd? Or a Cattle Decapitation crowd? Or a Cannibal Corpse/Nile type crowd? And so on... because those Katatonia or Moonspell or Therion tours are rather few and far between (and we weren't successful in getting them to put us on those shows either!!)

I personally have made many a phone call, an email, a promo package mailed, etc. to clubs and promoters trying to get us on these shows. Our label has done the same, and even offered to help promote the gigs too. All these promoters want to hear is "well pay to play, we'll sell tickets for you". And I'm sorry but that's just the truth. Like I said this might not pertain to every promoter or show, like I said. But by and large, it's alot of 'em.
 
Larry,
I think Novembers Doom could fit well with many different genres.
I mean, to book you guys with Stratovarius or Sonata Arctica might be a stretch. Though, I think you guys would fit well on any doom, death, thrash, or traditional metal bill. Think about how many older metalheads out there who go to gigs twice a year to see bands like Celtic Frost or Venom who would love you. This isn't the normal crowd who goes regularly to Metal Haven or Impulse looking for the latest metal releases.

Granted, that probably wouldn't be your top priority for a target market, though I think that the older metalhead crowd is an untapped market.

There used to be a running joke in the punk community when bands like the Exploited, GBH, or the Subhumands would roll through town. People would say, "Look at those guys who dusted off their leather jackets to come!" Though, if a younger band opened that gig, they would be exposed to a niche crowd who would not otherwise know of them.

Interesting point on the pay-to-play. I knew that happened for venues like the Rave, and for some festivals. I didn't know that happened at more established venues like Metro or House of Blues.

I think Bob (Diabolik) made a great recommendation on the Cable "On Demand" thing. I have seen a lot of videos on there that I have never seen on MTV. You can go there almost daily and see stuff like Amon Amarth or Emperor. Granted, I think those videos get submitted from smaller video networks like Fuse and Havoc. (Have you guys marketed your videos to one of those)? There is also that one local show with Maniac Marc Meshing (or whatever his name is). It seems he plays lots of the Nuclear Blast and CM stuff.

I hope some of this helps!! I also hope you know all of this, even if it does come across as critical, is coming from the mind of someone who is indeed a big fan..... :)
 
Yeah I didn't know about that OnDemand thing, that's pretty interesting. Definitely will keep that in mind.

I would have loved to be on a Celtic Frost or Venom gig, that would've been amazing. And I think some fans of those bands would enjoy us. Getting on the bill is a whole 'nother matter.

I think another problem is that we don't have a proper booking agency working for us here in the U.S. The label has been trying to help us as much as they can lately like in regards to this upcoming jaunt with Saturnus. Problem with booking agencies is they generally want bands who are going to go out and play 100 or more shows a year, and unfortunately that's just not in the cards for us at this point.

Well all I can say is that we're trying our best and we have started to have some better offers from these fest organizers and such. Hopefully more of the promoters will follow suit and we can start dealing with them on getting on national bills and stuff. Hell man I'd gladly open for Opeth at House of Blues for free, but I ain't paying $1000 to do it lol
 
Just to give you guys a good feeling.
You're in the top5 sales of last 4 weeks in the metalzone shops in Belgium/Netherlands.
I'm pretty sure you're belgian fanbase has become bigger due to the european tour.
As an answer to Paul's question, i believe that you are doing great. For me the fact that you are regularly on this forum, proves that you care about your fans. The package(book/cd) was also special. Probably exclusive fanclub merchandising can make it more interesting to me.
About touring i understand there must be a financial profit in it. I don't know whether the european tour had it, but for me the ticket prize of 16€ for seeing the four bands was very low. I would have payed at least 25€. Maybe this is something to think about. Probably not everybody agrees with this. About touring with other bands, why not a european tour with Moonspell or Nevermore. Only 2 bands on the bill, would be great.Do you need to buy you in with these bands ?