The End Records - Fortune Small Business article

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

OK, so about how many metal bands would you say can live off of their music?


Art requires the communication of ideas on some level, not just making something that looks pretty. That would be a craft. Now I would ask you to explain how restoring classic cars would be art and not craft, but I realize by now that that would be asking too much of you.


And kept those drum endorsements going. More exposure and more gigs equates to more money, wasn't that my point?


Alright, I'm beginning to suspect that you are simply in denial and won't listen to reason, but just for you:

Slayer's albums, ranked by sales per year:
CI	150000
GHUA	50667
DI	39385
SITA	38765
DIM	32222
RIB	32000
SOH	30789
HA	21909
SNM	6583
HTC	4739

Note that the main deviation is Seasons In The Abyss, which isn't surprising given that it was their most melodic and grove-laden album yet - in fact, AMG called it "probably their most accessible album". Slayer got more commercial and accessible as the years went on, to deny this is ludicrous.

1. Can't really say. Can't give a accurate # of how many bands there are in this world nor are we insiders to know their financials. Some bands could be making a living off of it and be telling the fans through magazine interviews they are not strictly for appearances.

2. Art does not have to communicate ideas at all. Paintings can be visually appealing and the person who appreciates it does not have to care what it is trying to say to people. Music can appealing to a fan because it sounds good to them and they could care less what message the song and it's lyrics are trying to convey. Writing can be telling a good story and the person can not pick up on the moral of the story or could care less. Your definition of art is your definition of art and no one elses. That is what you fail to see. By your definition of art a beautiful painting by Monet that doesn't convey any message but is visually appealing to someone who appreciates art would be a craft instead. To call a priceless painting a craft is kind of absurd.

3. Let's compromise... what he does is a craft but what comes out of it is art... a classic car is collected for it's visual appeal... they are not collected because they are a craft...

4. Hellhammer's endorsements and/or guess spots equals more money for him yes.. but i see nothing wrong with him doing that... more power to him... beats his shitty dayjob that i heard he has... security guard i believe.. but don't quote me on that because im not sure...

5. Those #'s you gave on Slayers sales seem kind of low imo... I think they are higher but I'll take your word on it and use it to say that by no means based on those numbers you give makes Slayer one of the biggest metal bands in the world.... i concede they are accessible but accessible does not equal commercial...

 

[thisisaformicatable]

1. Can't really say. Can't give a accurate # of how many bands there are in this world nor are we insiders to know their financials. Some bands could be making a living off of it and be telling the fans through magazine interviews they are not strictly for appearances.

Metal Archives lists over 45,000 metal bands. Saying that 1% of them can live off of their music is probably being very generous. I'd be surprised if someone could list a few hundred.

2. Art does not have to communicate ideas at all. Paintings can be visually appealing and the person who appreciates it does not have to care what it is trying to say to people. Music can appealing to a fan because it sounds good to them and they could care less what message the song and it's lyrics are trying to convey. Writing can be telling a good story and the person can not pick up on the moral of the story or could care less. Your definition of art is your definition of art and no one elses. That is what you fail to see. By your definition of art a beautiful painting by Monet that doesn't convey any message but is visually appealing to someone who appreciates art would be a craft instead. To call a priceless painting a craft is kind of absurd.

3. Let's compromise... what he does is a craft but what comes out of it is art... a classic car is collected for it's visual appeal... they are not collected because they are a craft...

The perception of the viewer does not change the reality of the piece, if the viewer (you make him sound more like a consumer) is only seeking superficial entertainment that has no bearing on the content of the subject. Ignoring the message doesn't mean that the message doesn't exist, it means you are ignoring it. Monet wasn't simply painting pretty pictures for cash, he was trying to capture the beauty of nature and convey it to the viewer in ways that had never been done before. You have yet to explain how the work of a car restorer is art but the work of a carpenter, or barber, or janitor isn't - your definition is so broad as to be functionally useless.

5. Those #'s you gave on Slayers sales seem kind of low imo... I think they are higher but I'll take your word on it and use it to say that by no means based on those numbers you give makes Slayer one of the biggest metal bands in the world.... i concede they are accessible but accessible does not equal commercial...

My numbers are from Soundscan, check for yourself if you don't believe me; don't bother with the "imo" crap. They've sold over 4.5 million albums, which I would have to say puts them at the high end of those 45,000 bands (I'd wager top 10 although we'd have to crunch some more numbers). Yes, accessible does equal commercial. More accessible = more popular = more albums sold = more money = more commercial.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Metal Archives lists over 45,000 metal bands. Saying that 1% of them can live off of their music is probably being very generous. I'd be surprised if someone could list a few hundred.


The perception of the viewer does not change the reality of the piece, if the viewer (you make him sound more like a consumer) is only seeking superficial entertainment that has no bearing on the content of the subject. Ignoring the message doesn't mean that the message doesn't exist, it means you are ignoring it. Monet wasn't simply painting pretty pictures for cash, he was trying to capture the beauty of nature and convey it to the viewer in ways that had never been done before. You have yet to explain how the work of a car restorer is art but the work of a carpenter, or barber, or janitor isn't - your definition is so broad as to be functionally useless.


My numbers are from Soundscan, check for yourself if you don't believe me; don't bother with the "imo" crap. They've sold over 4.5 million albums, which I would have to say puts them at the high end of those 45,000 bands (I'd wager top 10 although we'd have to crunch some more numbers). Yes, accessible does equal commercial. More accessible = more popular = more albums sold = more money = more commercial.

1. I wouldn't want to go through that 45,000 list but there probably are some bands in there that are probably not considered metal by us but nonetheless it runs through the thousands anyways. We both can't say 1% or less or higher is correct. Someone would have to do the research and I doubt anyone here is willing lol

2. I never said the message didn't exist. I did said that just because the message is important to you does not mean it's important to someone else. You seem to think everyone should have your views. Millions of viewers have seen Monet's works but none look at it the same way as the person next to them. Some see it as nature presented in ways not done before like you suggested and others see it as art but just another nature painting. Again art and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. That is why a classic car is art. It's not art to you but it's art to a car lover of such cars. As for Carpenter, Barber and Janitor (i don't know where you get idea to put a janitor in this list)... they are craftsmen because what they create is not construed as art by anyone. Wait i make a exception. The houses a carpenter builds can be construed as art but the true artist is the architect not the carpenter. As for the Barber (my father is one as well as my uncles)... some hairstyles I do consider art.. some funky ones i suppose but only if it's a original hairstyle for one client... I can't give examples because my father does not do such things. he does regular haircuts... but I seen peeps in the streets with unusual and original hairstyles i consider a artwork though temporary one. As for Janitor.. don't even know what he creates for himself or for someone else who designed it that you include such a person in this list <shrugs> so I cannot answer that.

4. I didn't say I didn't believe you I just said the numbers seem kind of low if you meant that was overall sales but now I see you meant debut sales. If you want to crunch the #'s to see if they are in the top 10... be my guess.. I don't have the time for such things but you seem to have the time... and accessible does not equal commercial... it depends on the band... commercial to me means mainstream... A band that wasn't mainstream then becoming one that they pretty much get played on the radio ala Metallica... again accessible and commercial is a opinion.. and there is no right or wrong.. just opinion.... for some reason you can't accept that my opinion differs from yours and just let it go... must be denial on your part lol :Smug:

But anyways cest la vie (pardon if i spelled it wrong since I haven't taken French since college in 1991 lol )... The topic of this thread nonetheless is that The End needs to restructure to survive and yes that means making a profit because breaking even will not do it for them. They are struggling to pay their bills. If you want to be the starving artist because you do not want a career and do not want to compromise the integrity of your "art" then more power to you. Write some songs, press your own CD's out of your own pocket and hand them out for free to me and the others on this board. I'll be glad to hear it.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

1. I wouldn't want to go through that 45,000 list but there probably are some bands in there that are probably not considered metal by us but nonetheless it runs through the thousands anyways. We both can't say 1% or less or higher is correct. Someone would have to do the research and I doubt anyone here is willing lol

Actually, Metal Archives tends to be fairly strict as to what bands they list. Anyway, there is no denying that the vast (vast!) majority of metal bands are unable to make a living off of their music.

2. I never said the message didn't exist. I did said that just because the message is important to you does not mean it's important to someone else. You seem to think everyone should have your views. Millions of viewers have seen Monet's works but none look at it the same way as the person next to them. Some see it as nature presented in ways not done before like you suggested and others see it as art but just another nature painting. Again art and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. That is why a classic car is art. It's not art to you but it's art to a car lover of such cars. As for Carpenter, Barber and Janitor (i don't know where you get idea to put a janitor in this list)... they are craftsmen because what they create is not construed as art by anyone. Wait i make a exception. The houses a carpenter builds can be construed as art but the true artist is the architect not the carpenter. As for the Barber (my father is one as well as my uncles)... some hairstyles I do consider art.. some funky ones i suppose but only if it's a original hairstyle for one client... I can't give examples because my father does not do such things. he does regular haircuts... but I seen peeps in the streets with unusual and original hairstyles i consider a artwork though temporary one. As for Janitor.. don't even know what he creates for himself or for someone else who designed it that you include such a person in this list <shrugs> so I cannot answer that.

OK, you're a bit all over the place here. So your definition of art is basically whatever someone wants to be art? Very nice, but I hope you realize that such a definition is totally useless for the purpose of discussion. Your logic is circular (it's art because people feel that it's art) and your conclusion creates a broad term with little meaning or use.

4. I didn't say I didn't believe you I just said the numbers seem kind of low if you meant that was overall sales but now I see you meant debut sales.

No, I meant sales per year, as I clearly indicated in the post in question.

If you want to crunch the #'s to see if they are in the top 10... be my guess.. I don't have the time for such things but you seem to have the time... and accessible does not equal commercial... it depends on the band... commercial to me means mainstream... A band that wasn't mainstream then becoming one that they pretty much get played on the radio ala Metallica... again accessible and commercial is a opinion.. and there is no right or wrong.. just opinion.... for some reason you can't accept that my opinion differs from yours and just let it go... must be denial on your part lol :Smug:

First, quit the binary logic. Slayer became *more* commercial (definition: able to yield or make a profit) as they changed their sound. This is not a difference of opinion, this is a fact that I have presented (and supported by evidence) that you refuse to believe. If you have evidence to the contrary beyond your own incredulity then please present it; I would be interested to see it. Otherwise, your opinion is incorrect.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Actually, Metal Archives tends to be fairly strict as to what bands they list. Anyway, there is no denying that the vast (vast!) majority of metal bands are unable to make a living off of their music.


OK, you're a bit all over the place here. So your definition of art is basically whatever someone wants to be art? Very nice, but I hope you realize that such a definition is totally useless for the purpose of discussion. Your logic is circular (it's art because people feel that it's art) and your conclusion creates a broad term with little meaning or use.



No, I meant sales per year, as I clearly indicated in the post in question.


First, quit the binary logic. Slayer became *more* commercial (definition: able to yield or make a profit) as they changed their sound. This is not a difference of opinion, this is a fact that I have presented (and supported by evidence) that you refuse to believe. If you have evidence to the contrary beyond your own incredulity then please present it; I would be interested to see it. Otherwise, your opinion is incorrect.

Like I indicated... this convo is getting repetitive and old... Were both set in our ways and were both not going to change each other minds so why bother... c'est la vie...

But you are wrong no matter what in that a label should only break even... and The End records is a living example of that... breaking even and struggling to pay the bills when your expenses can go higher at any moment is never the way to go... and with the advent of being able to download music which cuts into CD sales to even break even as you wish every label to be will not work in the long run... so get the romantic notion of a profit free world and the romantic view of a starving artist out of your head... the rest of us live in the real world...

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Like I indicated... this convo is getting repetitive and old... Were both set in our ways and were both not going to change each other minds so why bother... c'est la vie...

My god you are close-minded and stubborn. And have very poor debate etiquette as well.

But you are wrong no matter what in that a label should only break even... and The End records is a living example of that... breaking even and struggling to pay the bills when your expenses can go higher at any moment is never the way to go... and with the advent of being able to download music which cuts into CD sales to even break even as you wish every label to be will not work in the long run... so get the romantic notion of a profit free world and the romantic view of a starving artist out of your head... the rest of us live in the real world...

The End is a fine example of a label that is more concerned about the business end of things than the music end; hey maybe they'll sign Madonna and their worries will be over! And you can stay in the real world rolleyes I'll stay here with the literally tens of thousands (again, the vast majority) of metal bands who keep the genre alive without a chance at making a career out of it.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

My god you are close-minded and stubborn. And have very poor debate etiquette as well.


The End is a fine example of a label that is more concerned about the business end of things than the music end; hey maybe they'll sign Madonna and their worries will be over! And you can stay in the real world rolleyes I'll stay here with the literally tens of thousands (again, the vast majority) of metal bands who keep the genre alive without a chance at making a career out of it.

The End is concerned with survival and not going belly up... like i said be my guess and work a shitty job so you can pay for your own CD pressings and spread them around for free in your romantic quest of being a starving artist... but hell at least charge something so you can break even

 

[thisisaformicatable]

The End is concerned with survival and not going belly up... like i said be my guess and work a shitty job so you can pay for your own CD pressings and spread them around for free in your romantic quest of being a starving artist... but hell at least charge something so you can break even

Seems to me that for The End, expansion and economic growth are major concerns, judging by the focus on signing pop acts and exploring new revenue streams. They are about as big as it gets for an independent (mostly) metal label, they have grown far beyond the point of mere survival. This is why I have mixed feelings about buying from them, I like that they have good prices and selection and are mostly independent; I dislike the kind of artists that they choose to spend my money on.

And despite your juvenile condescending remarks to the contrary, this is not quest to become a starving artist, this is reality - unless you are one of the handful of artists able to survive off of the music alone, you are one of the tens of thousands of metal bands who will never earn a living wage from their art. And that is the beauty of the internet - you can distribute your music to listeners at virtually no cost.

 

[Jreg]

Seems to me that for The End, expansion and economic growth are major concerns, judging by the focus on signing pop acts and exploring new revenue streams. They are about as big as it gets for an independent (mostly) metal label, they have grown far beyond the point of mere survival. This is why I have mixed feelings about buying from them, I like that they have good prices and selection and are mostly independent; I dislike the kind of artists that they choose to spend my money on.

And despite your juvenile condescending remarks to the contrary, this is not quest to become a starving artist, this is reality - unless you are one of the handful of artists able to survive off of the music alone, you are one of the tens of thousands of metal bands who will never earn a living wage from their art. And that is the beauty of the internet - you can distribute your music to listeners at virtually no cost.

In a sense, you're right. Gazillions of bands (that is, the majority) lose money or---if they're a bit luckier---break even, and it doesn't deter them. They press on, because they're doing something very meaningful, all the while putting in their 9 to 5 somewhere else so they can still eat. Many bands pull it off for a long time, and like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But those are the artists we're talking about. The labels---the businesses that invest in the artists' recording, touring and merchandising needs---have different responsibilities, necessities and intentions than the artists they enter partnerships with, and I think you're confusing the two and treating them as one and the same. Compared to the bands, a lot more of the guys who operate these record labels do it full-time as their sole livelihood. I'm sure if it were practical, many more would simultaneously work a second job to supplement their income, but running a label can be very time consuming. When you're in a band, you've got the three or four other members to look out for and depend on, and maybe a handful of people who work for your label (or if you're unsigned and doing it DIY, maybe a handful of other people too). On the other hand, if you're the owner of that label, you've got 10-20 whole bands to deal with, plus you're employees, distributors, booking agents/promoters, printing companies, and so forth---that can be at least 100 people that you constantly have to be working with, which is pretty signficant for a few reasons. For one thing, if a band takes a bit of a financial loss, they still may be very capable of dusting it off and soldiering on, as many bands certainly have done time and again, even when it happens repeatedly. But when this frequently happens to a label and it adversely affects those dozens of people, they're much more likely to fold completely. Also, when you're working with that many people, it's inevitable that you'll have to be a bit more lenient with what might have been your initial "artistic vision." It's like when a band has to iron out the creative differences between its 3-5 members through compromising, only on a larger scale. So if The End picks up a more mainstream, profitable band like Lordi to help pay the bills even though they wouldn't have envisioned working with a band like that a decade ago, then so be it. (Besides, we're not mind-readers. We don't know that promoting a band like that goes against their principles in any way, even if it goes against YOUR principles.)

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

In a sense, you're right. Gazillions of bands (that is, the majority) lose money or---if they're a bit luckier---break even, and it doesn't deter them. They press on, because they're doing something very meaningful, all the while putting in their 9 to 5 somewhere else so they can still eat. Many bands pull it off for a long time, and like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But those are the artists we're talking about. The labels---the businesses that invest in the artists' recording, touring and merchandising needs---have different responsibilities, necessities and intentions than the artists they enter partnerships with, and I think you're confusing the two and treating them as one and the same. Compared to the bands, a lot more of the guys who operate these record labels do it full-time as their sole livelihood. I'm sure if it were practical, many more would simultaneously work a second job to supplement their income, but running a label can be very time consuming. When you're in a band, you've got the three or four other members to look out for and depend on, and maybe a handful of people who work for your label (or if you're unsigned and doing it DIY, maybe a handful of other people too). On the other hand, if you're the owner of that label, you've got 10-20 whole bands to deal with, plus you're employees, distributors, booking agents/promoters, printing companies, and so forth---that can be at least 100 people that you constantly have to be working with, which is pretty signficant for a few reasons. For one thing, if a band takes a bit of a financial loss, they still may be very capable of dusting it off and soldiering on, as many bands certainly have done time and again, even when it happens repeatedly. But when this frequently happens to a label and it adversely affects those dozens of people, they're much more likely to fold completely. Also, when you're working with that many people, it's inevitable that you'll have to be a bit more lenient with what might have been your initial "artistic vision." It's like when a band has to iron out the creative differences between its 3-5 members through compromising, only on a larger scale. So if The End picks up a more mainstream, profitable band like Lordi to help pay the bills even though they wouldn't have envisioned working with a band like that a decade ago, then so be it. (Besides, we're not mind-readers. We don't know that promoting a band like that goes against their principles in any way, even if it goes against YOUR principles.)

+1 .. the only thing the bands have invested is time... the labels have more invested and more responsibilities especially to providing employment to their employees... something formitcatable doesn't seem to acknowledge... $6,000 per month rent may not sound like much to you plus payroll and other expenses... but let's see you do it and not struggle with just breaking even each month while not going belly up... a label's survival and/or success affects alot more people then just the bands & their members...

 

[black_magick]

Interesting article,...I've always though of openeing up a label of my own.

 

[black_magick]

I don't care so much about The End's roster, but they've always been one of the better metal mail-order distributions. It's funny to see the typical elitist meathead responses of people who feel that everything should be done for free. Just because your life will never amount to anything more than making 7 bucks an hour flipping burgers and putting out the trash at a greasy fastfood joint doesn't mean that everyone should "break even" and strive to make no money whatsoever. Running a business means turning a profit or die. That's how businesses work. Breaking even might work for a while, but one bad year and you're done for. Not to mention that it offers zero possibility to expand or do anything else.

If The End needs to sell shit like Slipknot records along the side in order to stay afloat or go into shitty merchandising deals then so what. Let them. As long as they continue doing what they've always been doing and offer a decent selection of underground metal for an affordable price (you Americans don't realize how lucky you are, shit at The End records costs about half of what it cost in stores here in Europe) then who fucking cares.

Don't get me wrong, I despise the music "business" when it comes to interfering with artistic integrity and artificially keeping CD prices up but none of that applies to this article whatsoever.

I agree with this statement 100%!

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Interesting article,...I've always though of openeing up a label of my own.

I intend to as well or some music business related field.. perhaps just manage bands... I'm in talks with someone about this... what state are you in? just curious...

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I agree with this statement 100%!

me too...

 

[thisisaformicatable]

In a sense, you're right. Gazillions of bands (that is, the majority) lose money or---if they're a bit luckier---break even, and it doesn't deter them. They press on, because they're doing something very meaningful, all the while putting in their 9 to 5 somewhere else so they can still eat. Many bands pull it off for a long time, and like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Exactly, this is the main point I was trying to make when responding to the idiotic comment that "It's not possible to be in a successful band and still keep a career on the side" made by KJones.

But those are the artists we're talking about. The labels---the businesses that invest in the artists' recording, touring and merchandising needs---have different responsibilities, necessities and intentions than the artists they enter partnerships with, and I think you're confusing the two and treating them as one and the same. Compared to the bands, a lot more of the guys who operate these record labels do it full-time as their sole livelihood. I'm sure if it were practical, many more would simultaneously work a second job to supplement their income, but running a label can be very time consuming. When you're in a band, you've got the three or four other members to look out for and depend on, and maybe a handful of people who work for your label (or if you're unsigned and doing it DIY, maybe a handful of other people too). On the other hand, if you're the owner of that label, you've got 10-20 whole bands to deal with, plus you're employees, distributors, booking agents/promoters, printing companies, and so forth---that can be at least 100 people that you constantly have to be working with, which is pretty signficant for a few reasons. For one thing, if a band takes a bit of a financial loss, they still may be very capable of dusting it off and soldiering on, as many bands certainly have done time and again, even when it happens repeatedly. But when this frequently happens to a label and it adversely affects those dozens of people, they're much more likely to fold completely. Also, when you're working with that many people, it's inevitable that you'll have to be a bit more lenient with what might have been your initial "artistic vision." It's like when a band has to iron out the creative differences between its 3-5 members through compromising, only on a larger scale. So if The End picks up a more mainstream, profitable band like Lordi to help pay the bills even though they wouldn't have envisioned working with a band like that a decade ago, then so be it.

Right, that's how it works if you want to run a label as a business and your goals are profit and expansion. It doesn't have to be that way - plenty of labels get by just fine without ever compromising a thing, because their goal is to provide the music they love to fans, not expansion and profit.

(Besides, we're not mind-readers. We don't know that promoting a band like that goes against their principles in any way, even if it goes against YOUR principles.)

In which place their principles would have to be fairly weak. Either way it's not an activity to be respectful of.

+1 .. the only thing the bands have invested is time...

You might want to think that one over.

the labels have more invested and more responsibilities especially to providing employment to their employees... something formitcatable doesn't seem to acknowledge... $6,000 per month rent may not sound like much to you plus payroll and other expenses... but let's see you do it and not struggle with just breaking even each month while not going belly up... a label's survival and/or success affects alot more people then just the bands & their members...

Um, hello, $6,000 a month for a label is a tonne, do you not realize that The End is a massive label and are hardly the typical case? For every The End there are dozens of smaller DIY labels devoted to a specific type of music - they scrape by, committing their free time, and never get to the point of needing to bring in financial advisers because they are more concerned about the music than the business.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Exactly, this is the main point I was trying to make when responding to the idiotic comment that "It's not possible to be in a successful band and still keep a career on the side" made by KJones.


Right, that's how it works if you want to run a label as a business and your goals are profit and expansion. It doesn't have to be that way - plenty of labels get by just fine without ever compromising a thing, because their goal is to provide the music they love to fans, not expansion and profit.


In which place their principles would have to be fairly weak. Either way it's not an activity to be respectful of.


You might want to think that one over.


Um, hello, $6,000 a month for a label is a tonne, do you not realize that The End is a massive label and are hardly the typical case? For every The End there are dozens of smaller DIY labels devoted to a specific type of music - they scrape by, committing their free time, and never get to the point of needing to bring in financial advisers because they are more concerned about the music than the business.

1. You seem to forget it takes money to come out with a band's release and promote their album to provide it to the fan's and people who are not fan's yet. If your not making any money you can't provide this music for the fans or sign new bands that fans might like.In this day and age where you can download shit for free last thing you want to lose is money for a principle that is BS. Samoth releases bands music that he admires to the fans and he makes money at the same time. Are the bands he signs commercial bands. not really in my book. Im not a fan of any of the bands he signs.

2. If a band has a dayjob like you want be it a shitty one then all they have invested is time in writing the songs and/or recording them. They are not spending any money on studio time, marketing etc.. that is the label's job.

3. Just wanted you to realize that $6,000 a month is a ton.If you reread the article it is twice what it cost him in Utah. Sometimes you make me think you don't realize that because of your break even only principle. That labels can get buy with just breaking even when that is not always the reality. If someone just wants to release one or two band's releases out of a 1 bedroom apartment and call themselves a label that is fine but when you have like a dozen or more bands signed breaking even again is not a option because you need constant cash flow to support all bands plus your own personal expenses. The End started out trying to do what you want and realized it wasn't going to cut it to stay afloat. They rethought their principles and realized they were elitist bs and yes they are elitist bs even if you won't admit it.your tryin to be this noble anti-capitalist where everything should be free and no one should make a profit which is elisist bs. Your trying to be a modern day hippie and someday you will realize that is not reality. Money makes the world go around whether you like it or not.And just because someone wants to make money out of their art does not mean they are compromising the their art for the sake of money. You can make the music you love and make money at the same time as long as you don't let the money get to your head and yes there are bands out there like this as well as the ones that aren't but you never seem to admit that neither.

4. Two more things. You keep mentioning DIY labels that do fine and break even but you never name any and even if you do you wouldn't know their situation at all because your not a insider. They could look like they are not struggling from the outside but we don't know if they are or aren't. The second thing is I would love to see you start and run your own label so you see what it is like.I would bet you would go belly up. In other words put your money where your mouth is but then again you don't believe in putting or getting money anywhere.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

1. You seem to forget it takes money to come out with a band's release and promote their album to provide it to the fan's and people who are not fan's yet. If your not making any money you can't provide this music for the fans or sign new bands that fans might like.In this day and age where you can download shit for free last thing you want to lose is money for a principle that is BS. Samoth releases bands music that he admires to the fans and he makes money at the same time. Are the bands he signs commercial bands. not really in my book. Im not a fan of any of the bands he signs.

2. If a band has a dayjob like you want be it a shitty one then all they have invested is time in writing the songs and/or recording them. They are not spending any money on studio time, marketing etc.. that is the label's job.

I don't even know what this is about or what point of mine you are addressing here, please clarify.

3. Just wanted you to realize that $6,000 a month is a ton.If you reread the article it is twice what it cost him in Utah. Sometimes you make me think you don't realize that because of your break even only principle. That labels can get buy with just breaking even when that is not always the reality. If someone just wants to release one or two band's releases out of a 1 bedroom apartment and call themselves a label that is fine but when you have like a dozen or more bands signed breaking even again is not a option because you need constant cash flow to support all bands plus your own personal expenses. The End started out trying to do what you want and realized it wasn't going to cut it to stay afloat. They rethought their principles and realized they were elitist bs and yes they are elitist bs even if you won't admit it.your tryin to be this noble anti-capitalist where everything should be free and no one should make a profit which is elisist bs. Your trying to be a modern day hippie and someday you will realize that is not reality. Money makes the world go around whether you like it or not.

I think you don't realize that The End is far past the point of "staying afloat". They didn't have to drop their "elitist bs" rolleyes to survive, they had to drop it (how do we even know they thought like this in the first place anyway? Are you an "insider"? Anyway...) because they wanted to grow. They worked hard to get to the point where they are competing with the big boys, where they are forced to sign shit like Lordi if they want to keep up. But this isn't survival, they got to this point because they wanted to, they got here because they cared about the business first and the music second. It's a situation they are lucky to be in. Although it is kind of sad; they offer so many underground metal classics at cheaper prices than other distros, but the money from those sales doesn't go to support future classic metal artists. Instead it goes to promoting the bands that help The End keep in that multi million dollar profit range.

And just because someone wants to make money out of their art does not mean they are compromising the their art for the sake of money. You can make the music you love and make money at the same time as long as you don't let the money get to your head and yes there are bands out there like this as well as the ones that aren't but you never seem to admit that neither.

OK, not to big on reading comprehension, are we? I've asked you once already to actually read my posts and respond to the points I make, not the positions you imagine I hold. Anyways, earlier in this thread I stated:

The problem being that as the money rolls in, suddenly the artists don't need to work hard and make sacrifices, suddenly it becomes easy, the artist becomes complacent and starts producing a mediocre commodity - music that wouldn't stand on its own were it not for the strong marketing campaign behind it (yes, there are exceptions).

Therefore your allegation is incorrect.

4. Two more things. You keep mentioning DIY labels that do fine and break even but you never name any and even if you do you wouldn't know their situation at all because your not a insider. They could look like they are not struggling from the outside but we don't know if they are or aren't. The second thing is I would love to see you start and run your own label so you see what it is like.I would bet you would go belly up.

I'm sure if I had the time, drive, and some cash kicking around I could get something going. Something like Unsung Heroes Records or Suffering Jesus Productions or Bloodbath Records, maybe even like Barbarian Wrath or The Pagan Front if I could get some like-minded people together. You know, a nice honest label dedicated to promoting music and not interested in "diversifying" in order to expand into a multi million dollar endeavor like The End.

In other words put your money where your mouth is but then again you don't believe in putting or getting money anywhere.

OK, I find it hard to believe you are having this much trouble understanding my position, maybe you're just making stuff up now.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

In my opinion, musicians shouldn't make any money on record sales whatsoever. They should, however, make money on touring.

That way, the only musicians left in the "industry", would be the ones who made music solely out of love for their craft.

Sorry if that have been said already, but I'm too tired to read all this right now.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I don't even know what this is about or what point of mine you are addressing here, please clarify.


I think you don't realize that The End is far past the point of "staying afloat". They didn't have to drop their "elitist bs" rolleyes to survive, they had to drop it (how do we even know they thought like this in the first place anyway? Are you an "insider"? Anyway...) because they wanted to grow. They worked hard to get to the point where they are competing with the big boys, where they are forced to sign shit like Lordi if they want to keep up. But this isn't survival, they got to this point because they wanted to, they got here because they cared about the business first and the music second. It's a situation they are lucky to be in. Although it is kind of sad; they offer so many underground metal classics at cheaper prices than other distros, but the money from those sales doesn't go to support future classic metal artists. Instead it goes to promoting the bands that help The End keep in that multi million dollar profit range.


OK, not to big on reading comprehension, are we? I've asked you once already to actually read my posts and respond to the points I make, not the positions you imagine I hold. Anyways, earlier in this thread I stated:


Therefore your allegation is incorrect.


I'm sure if I had the time, drive, and some cash kicking around I could get something going. Something like Unsung Heroes Records or Suffering Jesus Productions or Bloodbath Records, maybe even like Barbarian Wrath or The Pagan Front if I could get some like-minded people together. You know, a nice honest label dedicated to promoting music and not interested in "diversifying" in order to expand into a multi million dollar endeavor like The End.


OK, I find it hard to believe you are having this much trouble understanding my position, maybe you're just making stuff up now.

1. If you mean point #2 it's self explanatory.

2. The shitty bands that The End do promote that does bring in the money is the reason they are able to sign those classic metal artists you like and release their albums. A means to a End (pun intended). But on the other side those underground metal classics in the beginning made his company a multi million dollar entity and he did it first by love of the music and business came 2nd. Money was just icing on the cake.Circumstances such as the advent of free downloading instead of paying for a CD, higher cost of living and business expenses increasing nationwide but especially in NY have made it necessary to rethink the business model he originally planned. But like we both said were both not insiders. Who knows maybe he just loves Lordi's music and really believes in them and if so just because we don't like that band and their music who are we to say he shouldn't release it if he does love it.

3. That's exactly it. It takes time, drive and money to start and run a label. A full time thing. You do it for the love of the music but also for the money to be able to do it full time & to keep it going and continue releasing the music you love.

4. If you admire those labels then start one. You can say all you want about this label or that label whether positive or negative but unless you do it yourself you can't really say for sure. You can start out small with one band and press let's say 1,000 of their CD's and sell them at shows or through the web somehow. And reinvest the profits (dread the word im sure in your ears lol) back into the label to sign and release more bands you admire and so forth and so forth.

5. Anyways i understand your position but it's nothing but elitist rhetoric BS uke: disguised as something else and if you believe so much in such ideas you should practice what you preach by doing #4. Prove the rest of us wrong.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

1. If you mean point #2 it's self explanatory.

No, I meant points one and two; note how I break your posts into sections and respond to each section in turn as opposed to your difficult to follow numbering system. If the points were self-explanatory, I wouldn't have asked you to clarify them, would I?

2. The shitty bands that The End do promote that does bring in the money is the reason they are able to sign those classic metal artists you like and release their albums. A means to a End (pun intended).

But on the other side those underground metal classics in the beginning made his company a multi million dollar entity and he did it first by love of the music and business came 2nd.

These two statements contradict each other quite handily, you can't have it both ways. Also I would ask if you have proof for either one of these scenarios.

Money was just icing on the cake.Circumstances such as the advent of free downloading instead of paying for a CD, higher cost of living and business expenses increasing nationwide but especially in NY have made it necessary to rethink the business model he originally planned. But like we both said were both not insiders. Who knows maybe he just loves Lordi's music and really believes in them and if so just because we don't like that band and their music who are we to say he shouldn't release it if he does love it.

I guess he could be fortunate enough to have such a profitable taste in music. Again, this isn't some underground label that was minding their own business when all of a sudden the rent went up; this is a label that rose to the top through strong drive and a strong business plan that needs to sign popular acts to contend with the higher level of competition they are now faced with.

3. That's exactly it. It takes time, drive and money to start and run a label. A full time thing. You do it for the love of the music but also for the money to be able to do it full time & to keep it going and continue releasing the music you love.

4. If you admire those labels then start one. You can say all you want about this label or that label whether positive or negative but unless you do it yourself you can't really say for sure. You can start out small with one band and press let's say 1,000 of their CD's and sell them at shows or through the web somehow. And reinvest the profits (dread the word im sure in your ears lol) back into the label to sign and release more bands you admire and so forth and so forth.

Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. Except it isn't necessarily a full time thing, only if you can rise to the top of the underground label pile somehow or you don't mind living in squalor. Otherwise it's an evenings and weekends kind of thing.

5. Anyways i understand your position but it's nothing but elitist rhetoric BS uke: disguised as something else and if you believe so much in such ideas you should practice what you preach by doing #4.

If you understand my positions then why are you making false representations of them? Are you just dishonest, or what?

Prove the rest of us wrong.

There's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.