The End Records - Fortune Small Business article

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

No, I meant points one and two; note how I break your posts into sections and respond to each section in turn as opposed to your difficult to follow numbering system. If the points were self-explanatory, I wouldn't have asked you to clarify them, would I?




These two statements contradict each other quite handily, you can't have it both ways. Also I would ask if you have proof for either one of these scenarios.


I guess he could be fortunate enough to have such a profitable taste in music. Again, this isn't some underground label that was minding their own business when all of a sudden the rent went up; this is a label that rose to the top through strong drive and a strong business plan that needs to sign popular acts to contend with the higher level of competition they are now faced with.


Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. Except it isn't necessarily a full time thing, only if you can rise to the top of the underground label pile somehow or you don't mind living in squalor. Otherwise it's an evenings and weekends kind of thing.


If you understand my positions then why are you making false representations of them? Are you just dishonest, or what?


There's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.

1. You can have it both ways... you can love something and make it into a business... its done everyday in many fields including music.. but for a example i'll give one that isn't a metal label but i came across them a long time and to me he is a example of both: Asian Man Records .. a punk rock label based in cali... www.asianmanrecords.com .. explore his site because im having problems connecting to it right now.. my comp is being a weenie today with websites... but anyways he runs his label out of his garage and does it for the love of the music and not the money though he said the money was a bonus and he was able to make a living out of what he loves (putting out punk rock albums of bands he admires some of them kind of quirky if you ask me)and not work a shitty job...he is not a multimillion company like The End but he does alright... and he doesnt sign commercial bands nor tells the bands what to do... a honest label with affordable prices etc.. just like you described...

2. Rents go up in NY all the time, faster then in other parts of the country imo and because I live here and know from experience from my own apartment rent lol As real estate prices go up so do the rents... and the real estate market has been up for few years now though I think sooner or later it will bust... he shoul of stayed in Utah or some other low rent/expense/lower cost of living state/city...

3. Don't know about you but most people do mind living in squalor. And it's a evenings/weekend type of thing at first but later they do it full time like Asian Man... bands that do not change their music to commercial type of music can make a label money without them going back on their principles.. yes i know i was shocked but it does happen

4. Your positions are elitist there is nothing to understand you just don't like to be called as such. But I am not the only one that see's your views as elitist.

5. Done for decades till the internet and such sites as limewire, napster etc. came along and changed the game. Alot of labels (excluding ones like asian man) come and go because they can't afford the expenses in the long run. Others merge with other companies which is what I think Nuclear Blast and Century Media do and others like The End try to fight it out.But like I said I would love to see you do it and still say the same thing when things do not turn out right and you realize it's actually a business and not a hobby especially when Uncle Sam takes taxes from you as well.

 

[CF87]

In my opinion, musicians shouldn't make any money on record sales

 

[Mort Divine]

Indeed.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'm getting tired of you ignoring my points. I also find it rude that you don't bother to explain your points when asked. I know the standard for discussion on this forum is pretty low, but damn.

1. You can have it both ways... you can love something and make it into a business... its done everyday in many fields including music.. but for a example i'll give one that isn't a metal label but i came across them a long time and to me he is a example of both: Asian Man Records .. a punk rock label based in cali... www.asianmanrecords.com .. explore his site because im having problems connecting to it right now.. my comp is being a weenie today with websites... but anyways he runs his label out of his garage and does it for the love of the music and not the money though he said the money was a bonus and he was able to make a living out of what he loves (putting out punk rock albums of bands he admires some of them kind of quirky if you ask me)and not work a shitty job...he is not a multimillion company like The End but he does alright... and he doesnt sign commercial bands nor tells the bands what to do... a honest label with affordable prices etc.. just like you described...

Here you go again, misreading my post and posting another paragraph of irrelevance. I'm happy for the guy. Let me try to explain this: I quote a segment of your post, then underneath that segment I post my reply to it. I don't know why this is so confusing for you.

Again, you posted two scenarios, which (correct me if I'm wrong) boil down to "signing shitty bands allows The End to pay for the classic metal albums they sell" and "selling classic metal albums are what made The End their millions in profit." You have presented two scenarios, and then posited that they have caused each other. This is impossible. *This* is what you can't have both ways, not whatever else you thought I was referring to.

2. Rents go up in NY all the time, faster then in other parts of the country imo and because I live here and know from experience from my own apartment rent lol As real estate prices go up so do the rents... and the real estate market has been up for few years now though I think sooner or later it will bust... he shoul of stayed in Utah or some other low rent/expense/lower cost of living state/city...

That's very interesting. However, you totally missed my point. Try again:

...this isn't some underground label that was minding their own business when all of a sudden the rent went up; this is a label that rose to the top through strong drive and a strong business plan that needs to sign popular acts to contend with the higher level of competition they are now faced with.

...

3. Don't know about you but most people do mind living in squalor. And it's a evenings/weekend type of thing at first but later they do it full time like Asian Man... bands that do not change their music to commercial type of music can make a label money without them going back on their principles.. yes i know i was shocked but it does happen

In that case this man is fortunate to have a profitable taste in music. Also I'd suggest you look up "commercial" in the dictionary and stopped using your made-up definition. Maybe this is why you had such a hard time with the Slayer discussion.

4. Your positions are elitist there is nothing to understand you just don't like to be called as such. But I am not the only one that see's your views as elitist.

Is this elementary school? You have to explain your position, explain why you disagree with me. Name-calling, posting misrepresentations of my positions continually after being corrected, appealing to the majority, and other childish tactics aren't helping anyone.

5. Done for decades till the internet and such sites as limewire, napster etc. came along and changed the game. Alot of labels (excluding ones like asian man) come and go because they can't afford the expenses in the long run. Others merge with other companies which is what I think Nuclear Blast and Century Media do and others like The End try to fight it out.But like I said I would love to see you do it and still say the same thing when things do not turn out right and you realize it's actually a business and not a hobby especially when Uncle Sam takes taxes from you as well.

It's been almost a decade since Napster came along. The labels are still here.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I'm getting tired of you ignoring my points. I also find it rude that you don't bother to explain your points when asked. I know the standard for discussion on this forum is pretty low, but damn.


Here you go again, misreading my post and posting another paragraph of irrelevance. I'm happy for the guy. Let me try to explain this: I quote a segment of your post, then underneath that segment I post my reply to it. I don't know why this is so confusing for you.

Again, you posted two scenarios, which (correct me if I'm wrong) boil down to "signing shitty bands allows The End to pay for the classic metal albums they sell" and "selling classic metal albums are what made The End their millions in profit." You have presented two scenarios, and then posited that they have caused each other. This is impossible. *This* is what you can't have both ways, not whatever else you thought I was referring to.


That's very interesting. However, you totally missed my point. Try again:


...

In that case this man is fortunate to have a profitable taste in music. Also I'd suggest you look up "commercial" in the dictionary and stopped using your made-up definition. Maybe this is why you had such a hard time with the Slayer discussion.


Is this elementary school? You have to explain your position, explain why you disagree with me. Name-calling, posting misrepresentations of my positions continually after being corrected, appealing to the majority, and other childish tactics aren't helping anyone.


It's been almost a decade since Napster came along. The labels are still here.

If your getting tired just let it go then... your arguing with me like I'll agree with you and that will never happen.

Not impossible. One scenario led to the other because it became a natural transgression due to market changes.

Nope not namecalling just labeling you like if I called you a metalhead because that is what you are.

All labels have been adjusting since the days of napster in order to survive and if you read business articles CD sales have been down overall then in previous years. The business is not the same for all, majors or indies.And I said labels come and go, never said label will or have disappeared altogether.

but anyways if your tired of this conversation you only have to not reply and let the thread fade out.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

If your getting tired just let it go then... your arguing with me like I'll agree with you and that will never happen.

You aren't even arguing. You display the reading comprehension of a third grader, your reasoning ability is stuck on "binary" and you continuously resort to responding with anti-elitist rhetoric instead of, you know, *reading my posts and responding to them.* It's sad and funny at the same time.

Not impossible. One scenario led to the other because it became a natural transgression due to market changes.

OK, I give up, do you even read your own posts? You clearly don't understand them.

Nope not namecalling just labeling you like if I called you a metalhead because that is what you are.

Way to respond to one out of the three points made against you in that single *sentence*. There's that ignoring my posts thing again. The problem is you seem to have seen one of my posts, your "elitist" alarm went off, and ever since have been arguing with the evil elitist in your head. Meanwhile I'm here wondering what the hell you are talking about three quarters of the time.

All labels have been adjusting since the days of napster in order to survive and if you read business articles CD sales have been down overall then in previous years. The business is not the same for all, majors or indies.And I said labels come and go, never said label will or have disappeared altogether.

So maybe the market is a little smaller. The point remains: there's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.

but anyways if your tired of this conversation you only have to not reply and let the thread fade out.

Oh, I'll quit when I'm bored. It's still sort of fun, kind of like poking at a dead animal with a stick.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

You aren't even arguing. You display the reading comprehension of a third grader, your reasoning ability is stuck on "binary" and you continuously resort to responding with anti-elitist rhetoric instead of, you know, *reading my posts and responding to them.* It's sad and funny at the same time.


OK, I give up, do you even read your own posts? You clearly don't understand them.


Way to respond to one out of the three points made against you in that single *sentence*. There's that ignoring my posts thing again. The problem is you seem to have seen one of my posts, your "elitist" alarm went off, and ever since have been arguing with the evil elitist in your head. Meanwhile I'm here wondering what the hell you are talking about three quarters of the time.


So maybe the market is a little smaller. The point remains: there's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.


Oh, I'll quit when I'm bored. It's still sort of fun, kind of like poking at a dead animal with a stick.

nahh i read just fine and read what you say... Just your way of thinking that no one not even the artists themselves should profit is quite frankly stupid... and if you think your thoughts aren't elitist then perhaps you should look at your ideas again... I have read your posts and responded to them if you can't read my reply to them then can't help ya there buddy...

you said that I'm name calling you... meaning that I'm calling you a elitist... yet your wondering what I am talking about? ... "read" buddy.. it can help you... I said I wasn't name calling you like a little child... I am just labeling you a elitist... i don't consider that name calling... admit what you are or i'll burn you at the stake lol

Yes the market is getting smaller and smaller. Tower Records went bust and shut down all the stores around my area. Sam Goody's shut down one that i recall in my area and not sure about their other locations. That is two big chains. Mom and Pops are also struggling to survive and alot of them are going bust as well. CD's as we know it may very well phase out in the future much like 8 tracks and cassettes did before and if so this will dramatically affect the labels... the noble ones or not...

If you want to waste your time with this thread because you have nothing better to do in your life like spend time with a girl then so be it... I don't mind people who worship me and follow my every words lol annoying you is fun and even more fun because you fall for it... then so be it...

 

[thisisaformicatable]

nahh i read just fine and read what you say...

Then why do you ignore it? Why don't you respond to it? Why are you stuck in two-dimensional thinking and logical fallacy mode?

Just your way of thinking that no one not even the artists themselves should profit is quite frankly stupid... and if you think your thoughts aren't elitist then perhaps you should look at your ideas again... I have read your posts and responded to them if you can't read my reply to them then can't help ya there buddy...

you said that I'm name calling you... meaning that I'm calling you a elitist... yet your wondering what I am talking about? ... "read" buddy.. it can help you... I said I wasn't name calling you like a little child... I am just labeling you a elitist... i don't consider that name calling... admit what you are or i'll burn you at the stake lol

Again, you don't argue any points, you just call me an elitist as if that in itself invalidates what I'm saying. You are so close-minded that it's probably hopeless at this point.

Yes the market is getting smaller and smaller. Tower Records went bust and shut down all the stores around my area. Sam Goody's shut down one that i recall in my area and not sure about their other locations. That is two big chains. Mom and Pops are also struggling to survive and alot of them are going bust as well. CD's as we know it may very well phase out in the future much like 8 tracks and cassettes did before and if so this will dramatically affect the labels... the noble ones or not...

While I do celebrate this recent development in the industry, I haven't got a clue why you bring it up. How does a trend that you posit affects the entire industry equally support your argument in any way whatsoever?

If you want to waste your time with this thread because you have nothing better to do in your life like spend time with a girl then so be it... I don't mind people who worship me and follow my every words lol annoying you is fun and even more fun because you fall for it... then so be it...

I imagine we'll be done soon. Do you notice how you've dropped every single point and are now down to some irrelevant stuff about illegal downloads? Whenever I make up a point you don't like you just ignore it and focus on something else; it's a very transparent technique. I can only assume you're doing it willfully since you claim to "read just fine" lol.

Anyway, if you want to get this discussion back on track feel free to go back and respond to any of the dozen or so points that I have made that you haven't bothered to answer.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Then why do you ignore it? Why don't you respond to it? Why are you stuck in two-dimensional thinking and logical fallacy mode?

Better? so you can understand which of your postings/quotes I am answering? helps your reading? I don't respond to them because I already did in past postings. I'm not going to repeat myself, so you can reread my answers and if you still don't comprehend my replies then oh well, can't help you there.

Again, you don't argue any points, you just call me an elitist as if that in itself invalidates what I'm saying. You are so close-minded that it's probably hopeless at this point.

I did argue points and I am not going to repeat myself. Scroll back and reread them. And your views are casebook elitist views.On the contrary I am very open minded I just simply do not agree with your views.

While I do celebrate this recent development in the industry, I haven't got a clue why you bring it up. How does a trend that you posit affects the entire industry equally support your argument in any way whatsoever?

I bring it up because it presents a challenge to The End and all record labels. And it is positive to the fans who don't wish to pay high prices for CD's but it is a negative to the labels & artists because of illegal downloads. Which cuts down in sales and money flow to the labels/artists who will not be able to recoup expenses and "break even only" as you want them to do. This also hurts the mom and pop stores we frequent to find obscure albums. Today in the Wall Street Journal (yes I like to read business publications) has a interesting article in the B1 page of the Marketplace section of the paper called: "Can Music Survive Inside the Big Box?". Haven't read it yet but looks interesting because of the bi title: " Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy tighten their grip on CDs as Sales, Choices, Decrease". Yes we hate the big chains but whatever the article is about may affect labels, mom&pops, artists etc. so keep a open mind to the article if you read it.

I imagine we'll be done soon. Do you notice how you've dropped every single point and are now down to some irrelevant stuff about illegal downloads? Whenever I make up a point you don't like you just ignore it and focus on something else; it's a very transparent technique. I can only assume you're doing it willfully since you claim to "read just fine" lol.

Your points like my ressponses have been repeated over and over in this thread so I will not be repeating myself like i said. You can scroll back and reread them. As for the illegal downloads I made myself clear just above. Reread that.

Anyway, if you want to get this discussion back on track feel free to go back and respond to any of the dozen or so points that I have made that you haven't bothered to answer.

I answered them. Not going to answer them again. That is the best way I can put it.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Better? so you can understand which of your postings/quotes I am answering? helps your reading? I don't respond to them because I already did in past postings. I'm not going to repeat myself, so you can reread my answers and if you still don't comprehend my replies then oh well, can't help you there.

I answered them. Not going to answer them again. That is the best way I can put it.

I'm afraid you are either lying or mistaken. Here's a few for you:

Exhibit A:

Exactly, this is the main point I was trying to make when responding to the idiotic comment that "It's not possible to be in a successful band and still keep a career on the side" made by KJones.

Your response:

1. You seem to forget it takes money to come out with a band's release and promote their album to provide it to the fan's and people who are not fan's yet. If your not making any money you can't provide this music for the fans or sign new bands that fans might like.In this day and age where you can download shit for free last thing you want to lose is money for a principle that is BS. Samoth releases bands music that he admires to the fans and he makes money at the same time. Are the bands he signs commercial bands. not really in my book. Im not a fan of any of the bands he signs.

2. If a band has a dayjob like you want be it a shitty one then all they have invested is time in writing the songs and/or recording them. They are not spending any money on studio time, marketing etc.. that is the label's job.

I asked you to explain what your response has to do with my argument, you would not.

Exhibit B:
You posted these two statements:

2. The shitty bands that The End do promote that does bring in the money is the reason they are able to sign those classic metal artists you like and release their albums. A means to a End (pun intended).

But on the other side those underground metal classics in the beginning made his company a multi million dollar entity and he did it first by love of the music and business came 2nd.

Aside from you providing no proof for these assertions, you have failed to adequately explain the blatant contradiction contained therein: Do the classic albums make the label millions, or is it the pop artists that afford The End the chance to sell classic albums?

Exhibit C:

...this isn't some underground label that was minding their own business when all of a sudden the rent went up; this is a label that rose to the top through strong drive and a strong business plan that needs to sign popular acts to contend with the higher level of competition they are now faced with.

This point remains unaddressed, please explain why you feel it is incorrect.

Furthermore, I have shown several points where you have posted clear misrepresentations of my position, as well as used logical fallacies such as appealing to the majority to support your positions. Instead of responding to these allegation and perhaps politely retracting some of your statements, you choose to ignore them. Then of course there was the entire Slayer discussion, where I supported my position with evidence that you dismissed out of hand before abandoning the debate, clearly demonstrating your close-minded nature.

I did argue points and I am not going to repeat myself. Scroll back and reread them. And your views are casebook elitist views.On the contrary I am very open minded I just simply do not agree with your views.

Why even bring that up? You clearly use the word as a slur and a crutch to avoid actually considering my position. It is blatantly obvious that you came into this debate with a close-minded attitude, your very first responses to me falsely characterized my positions and attacked positions that I do not hold.

I bring it up because it presents a challenge to The End and all record labels. And it is positive to the fans who don't wish to pay high prices for CD's but it is a negative to the labels & artists because of illegal downloads. Which cuts down in sales and money flow to the labels/artists who will not be able to recoup expenses and "break even only" as you want them to do. This also hurts the mom and pop stores we frequent to find obscure albums. Today in the Wall Street Journal (yes I like to read business publications) has a interesting article in the B1 page of the Marketplace section of the paper called: "Can Music Survive Inside the Big Box?". Haven't read it yet but looks interesting because of the bi title: " Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy tighten their grip on CDs as Sales, Choices, Decrease". Yes we hate the big chains but whatever the article is about may affect labels, mom&pops, artists etc. so keep a open mind to the article if you read it.

This supports my position well, actually - who suffers most when the market shrinks? It isn't the underground labels who care most about music and have been getting by breaking even or taking losses for decades, it's the bigger profit-seeking labels and artists. My point still stands: there's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

I'm afraid you are either lying or mistaken. Here's a few for you:

Exhibit A:

Your response:

I asked you to explain what your response has to do with my argument, you would not.

Exhibit B:
You posted these two statements:


Aside from you providing no proof for these assertions, you have failed to adequately explain the blatant contradiction contained therein: Do the classic albums make the label millions, or is it the pop artists that afford The End the chance to sell classic albums?

Exhibit C:

This point remains unaddressed, please explain why you feel it is incorrect.

Furthermore, I have shown several points where you have posted clear misrepresentations of my position, as well as used logical fallacies such as appealing to the majority to support your positions. Instead of responding to these allegation and perhaps politely retracting some of your statements, you choose to ignore them. Then of course there was the entire Slayer discussion, where I supported my position with evidence that you dismissed out of hand before abandoning the debate, clearly demonstrating your close-minded nature.


Why even bring that up? You clearly use the word as a slur and a crutch to avoid actually considering my position. It is blatantly obvious that you came into this debate with a close-minded attitude, your very first responses to me falsely characterized my positions and attacked positions that I do not hold.


This supports my position well, actually - who suffers most when the market shrinks? It isn't the underground labels who care most about music and have been getting by breaking even or taking losses for decades, it's the bigger profit-seeking labels and artists. My point still stands: there's nothing to prove. It's been done for decades, and it's being done right now.

I'll only address the last part , all else read the post before yours.

Your under the illusion that these small indie labels take losses or break even for decades. That is the illusion they present to us. Anyone with common sense would know that breaking even or taking losses year after years will not let that label survive that long. Think about it if you ran your own label could you afford to take money out of your own pocket to keep it afloat if it's making losses every year? Not at all. You would go bust sooner or later and that holds true for "break even" labels as well. These labels would have you believe they break even or make nothing but losses because of people like you. If you believe such a story you will keep buying from that label. A good example I think would be Moribund records who from the outside looks like it doesn't make money and only does it for the love of the music since if you look at their roster of bands they do not look like they are commercially viable to keep the label afloat and gives the illusion they are taking losses year after year or breaking even. But Moribund runs full page ads in Metal Maniacs and other magazine and that doesn't come cheap. So for this example I would say they are making money to be able to afford to run such a ad campaign month after month even though I'm sure you would think they are not making a profit. To survive you need to make some profit even if just a little profit per year. Taking losses year after year or breaking even makes no sense whatsoever. Even someone with no interest in business and some common sense would know that no label would survive for long if that is all they did.

Anyways me having a beer and watching the Bourne Identity on tv... your welcomed to one... I Suggest you reply to other people's posts that were in between ours to get another perspective. Some of them don't agree with you neither about they not profiting or just breaking even. So reply to them and let's see what further they have to say though I doubt you will since your so fixated on my words and thoughts. :: opens beer :: ::: gulp gulp gulp :: BURP!!! ..... ahhhhhhh

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I'll only address the last part , all else read the post before yours.

You're hopeless.

Your under the illusion that these small indie labels take losses or break even for decades. That is the illusion they present to us. Anyone with common sense would know that breaking even or taking losses year after years will not let that label survive that long. Think about it if you ran your own label could you afford to take money out of your own pocket to keep it afloat if it's making losses every year? Not at all. You would go bust sooner or later and that holds true for "break even" labels as well. These labels would have you believe they break even or make nothing but losses because of people like you. If you believe such a story you will keep buying from that label. A good example I think would be Moribund records who from the outside looks like it doesn't make money and only does it for the love of the music since if you look at their roster of bands they do not look like they are commercially viable to keep the label afloat and gives the illusion they are taking losses year after year or breaking even. But Moribund runs full page ads in Metal Maniacs and other magazine and that doesn't come cheap. So for this example I would say they are making money to be able to afford to run such a ad campaign month after month even though I'm sure you would think they are not making a profit. To survive you need to make some profit even if just a little profit per year. Taking losses year after year or breaking even makes no sense whatsoever. Even someone with no interest in business and some common sense would know that no label would survive for long if that is all they did.

Practically speaking, yes, a label can survive indefinitely for decades even on losses. When a label is small the margins are small as well, a few grand lost on production equipment or a run of CDs that doesn't sell isn't enough to deter the dedicated band or label. For the umpteenth time, there is a vast difference both in philosophy and operations between The End and Moribund, and between Moribund and a one-man basement distro. Trying to push all labels and artists into a single set of rules, as you are trying to do, is unrealistic and oversimplifies the situation immensely. I have been perfectly forward in recognizing that an artists first philosophy will not work for a large business venture like The End.

Moribund probably does alright, they have some of the more popular current black metal artists on their roster and their back catalogue is quite strong. It is quite hypocritical of you to criticize me for making assumptions about the workings of The End while you present claims that are far more specific based on no evidence at all but "common sense", but I digress - it's perfectly possible for a label to get by without compromising their vision, and as I have indicated repeatedly, some musical tastes and visions are more commercially viable than others. You seem to have this idea that I believe that any band or label that makes profit is bad. I have never intended this, it is only your need to view this issue in black and white that prevents you from understanding my point of view. I'm sure in your mind it simplifies the entire issue to simply categorize statements in this matter ("elitist = wrong") but this close-minded way of thinking prevents you from seeing any alternatives beyond your personally preferred status quo.

Anyways me having a beer and watching the Bourne Identity on tv... your welcomed to one... I Suggest you reply to other people's posts that were in between ours to get another perspective. Some of them don't agree with you neither about they not profiting or just breaking even. So reply to them and let's see what further they have to say though I doubt you will since your so fixated on my words and thoughts. :: opens beer :: ::: gulp gulp gulp :: BURP!!! ..... ahhhhhhh

Are you using this guide that just came out today, or is it just a coincidence? Because you just nailed #5. Don't worry, I'll be sure to avoid discussions with you in the future due to your immature debate tactics and poor discussion etiquette.

I'm pretty sure I did reply to the pertinent things others brought up over the last few pages, although I tend to ignore the low content one-liners.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

You're hopeless.

like i said i do not feel the need to repeat myself to satisfy your ego so if that makes me hopeless then so be it otherwise scroll back and reread everything.

Practically speaking, yes, a label can survive indefinitely for decades even on losses. When a label is small the margins are small as well, a few grand lost on production equipment or a run of CDs that doesn't sell isn't enough to deter the dedicated band or label. For the umpteenth time, there is a vast difference both in philosophy and operations between The End and Moribund, and between Moribund and a one-man basement distro. Trying to push all labels and artists into a single set of rules, as you are trying to do, is unrealistic and oversimplifies the situation immensely. I have been perfectly forward in recognizing that an artists first philosophy will not work for a large business venture like The End.

Not trying to lump everyone into the same thing... just merely pointing out that a label and/or it's artists such as the ones on Moribund can make a career out of their music without compromising their creative ideals...

perhaps I oversimplify at times but you are just as guilty of making things more complex then they really are...

Moribund probably does alright, they have some of the more popular current black metal artists on their roster and their back catalogue is quite strong. It is quite hypocritical of you to criticize me for making assumptions about the workings of The End while you present claims that are far more specific based on no evidence at all but "common sense", but I digress - it's perfectly possible for a label to get by without compromising their vision,

I would say Moribund is doing ok and profiting and making a career of it without compromising their vision.

You seem to have this idea that I believe that any band or label that makes profit is bad.

Gee, I wonder where I got that from considering that from post #1 you have said that no label or artist should profit or make a career out of their art because it compromises their original vision. So yes you did say it even in a subtle way and by doing so you are saying it is bad.

I have never intended this, it is only your need to view this issue in black and white that prevents you from understanding my point of view. I'm sure in your mind it simplifies the entire issue to simply categorize statements in this matter ("elitist = wrong") but this close-minded way of thinking prevents you from seeing any alternatives beyond your personally preferred status quo.

I understand your point of view in it's entirety, but I just don't agree with any of it. Is that so difficult to accept? That someone actually has the audacity not to agree with your views. For me to see a alternative you have to convince me and you have failed to do so because I am not you and have my own views that do not agree with yours.

Are you using this guide that just came out today, or is it just a coincidence? Because you just nailed #5. Don't worry, I'll be sure to avoid discussions with you in the future due to your immature debate tactics and poor discussion etiquette.

Nope I didn't read the guide nor knew that such a thing came out but obviously you do and use such things when someone doesn't agree with you. If you want to avoid me that is fine but to say I use immature debate tactics and poor etiquette on a metal forum where such things do not exist especially in the GMD forum is quite funny

I'm pretty sure I did reply to the pertinent things others brought up over the last few pages, although I tend to ignore the low content one-liners.

Instead of ignoring the one liners, try replying to their one liner and see if they expand their comment to a further discussion. You might be surprised.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

like i said i do not feel the need to repeat myself to satisfy your ego so if that makes me hopeless then so be it otherwise scroll back and reread everything.

Not trying to lump everyone into the same thing... just merely pointing out that a label and/or it's artists such as the ones on Moribund can make a career out of their music without compromising their creative ideals...

perhaps I oversimplify at times but you are just as guilty of making things more complex then they really are...

I would say Moribund is doing ok and profiting and making a career of it without compromising their vision.

OK, stop. Stop claiming you understand my position, because this once again demonstrates that you don't. I have not denied that it is possible to make money without compromising one's integrity. I have pointed out *numerous* times that this is possible. My position from the outset has been that *ideally* the profit motive should be removed, because it would remove artists and labels for which it is a primary motivation, without negatively impacting dedicated artists. I haven't claimed that bands/labels that make profits are inherently corrupt, I haven't claimed that it is impossible to make money while retaining your artistic integrity - these are positions that you continue to project onto me without just cause.

Gee, I wonder where I got that from considering that from post #1 you have said that no label or artist should profit or make a career out of their art because it compromises their original vision. So yes you did say it even in a subtle way and by doing so you are saying it is bad.

It's bad sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. There you go with that binary logic thing I've been complaining about for three pages.

I understand your point of view in it's entirety, but I just don't agree with any of it. Is that so difficult to accept? That someone actually has the audacity not to agree with your views. For me to see a alternative you have to convince me and you have failed to do so because I am not you and have my own views that do not agree with yours.

See above, you still haven't comprehended my basic position. Do that and I'll happily attempt to understand why you disagree.

Nope I didn't read the guide nor knew that such a thing came out but obviously you do and use such things when someone doesn't agree with you. If you want to avoid me that is fine but to say I use immature debate tactics and poor etiquette on a metal forum where such things do not exist especially in the GMD forum is quite funny

Yes, I know the uneducated metalhead stereotype is alive and well on these forums, but I try to rise above it. I'm sorry you don't feel the need to.

Instead of ignoring the one liners, try replying to their one liner and see if they expand their comment to a further discussion. You might be surprised.

Might. Seems like there's enough chaff on this board to weigh through as it is, but who knows.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

OK, stop. Stop claiming you understand my position, because this once again demonstrates that you don't. I have not denied that it is possible to make money without compromising one's integrity. I have pointed out *numerous* times that this is possible. My position from the outset has been that *ideally* the profit motive should be removed, because it would remove artists and labels for which it is a primary motivation, without negatively impacting dedicated artists. I haven't claimed that bands/labels that make profits are inherently corrupt, I haven't claimed that it is impossible to make money while retaining your artistic integrity - these are positions that you continue to project onto me without just cause.

But I do understand your position grasshopper But anyways if you do not deny that it is possible to make money without compromising one's integrity then it can't be impossible to make money while retaining your artistic integrity. Can't have it both ways. Besides there are plenty of labels/artists who do just that, some for decades (without breaking even and profiting from it as much as they deny the money as you do )

It's bad sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. There you go with that binary logic thing I've been complaining about for three pages.

See above, you still haven't comprehended my basic position. Do that and I'll happily attempt to understand why you disagree.

I do know your basic position. Take away any chance of making $$ and a career and they will stay true to their art by not coming out with albums they normally would of if they were making good money at it. Commercial albums mainly. But anyways like I said i disagree with that. So just accept that I don't accept your views.

Yes, I know the uneducated metalhead stereotype is alive and well on these forums, but I try to rise above it. I'm sorry you don't feel the need to.

I don't feel a need to because it won't change anything on this forum if I do. Sometimes they will only listen to you if you speak their "language". But I do not talk like this in the Old School forum because this type of behavior does not occur there and the Mod has a tight reign on such behavior there.


Might. Seems like there's enough chaff on this board to weigh through as it is, but who knows.[/QUOTE] Yeah who knows.. so give one of them a shot...

 

[thisisaformicatable]

But I do understand your position grasshopper

But anyways if you do not deny that it is possible to make money without compromising one's integrity

Which I never denied...

then it can't be impossible to make money while retaining your artistic integrity. Can't have it both ways.

I never *once* said it was! The only place anyone is having it "both ways" is in your mind.

Besides there are plenty of labels/artists who do just that, some for decades (without breaking even and profiting from it as much as they deny the money as you do )

I know. This has never been my position from the start. For pages I have been telling you to actually read my posts because I feared you didn't understand them. This proves me right. Every time you say you understand my position you have either been lying or proving what an illiterate you are.

You need to stop thinking in black and white. It is preventing you from understanding very simple and basic notions. Example:

Sometimes =/= Always

Am I going too fast for you?

I do know your basic position. Take away any chance of making $$ and a career and they will stay true to their art by not coming out with albums they normally would of if they were making good money at it. Commercial albums mainly. But anyways like I said i disagree with that. So just accept that I don't accept your views.

So am I to understand that you disagree because:

a) Bands would make commercial music even without the profit motive

b) You like commercial music and wouldn't want it to disappear

c) It's an elitist concept

d) ...?

I don't feel a need to because it won't change anything on this forum if I do. Sometimes they will only listen to you if you speak their "language". But I do not talk like this in the Old School forum because this type of behavior does not occur there and the Mod has a tight reign on such behavior there.

Such honourable behaviour.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Which I never denied...

You've denied it more then you have admitted it.

I know. This has never been my position from the start. For pages I have been telling you to actually read my posts because I feared you didn't understand them. This proves me right. Every time you say you understand my position you have either been lying or proving what an illiterate you are.

It has never proved you right. I've understood your position from the very beginning I just choose to not agree with you on almost anything and you get bent out of shape because of it.

You need to stop thinking in black and white. It is preventing you from understanding very simple and basic notions. Example:

Sometimes =/= Always

Am I going too fast for you?

I never think in terms of black and white, but you have. Am I going too slow for you?

So am I to understand that you disagree because:

a) Bands would make commercial music even without the profit motive

b) You like commercial music and wouldn't want it to disappear

c) It's an elitist concept

d) ...?

My position has always been that a band or label can make music and profit without copromising their original vision then there is no need to take out the profit part of it. Dozens if not more bands/labels have proven that. You on the other hand do not think anyone should profit period!! A underground band can stick to their original musical vision and make a career out of it. I'm sure people on this forum can make a list of such bands and labels (Moribund and their roster is why I used them as a example).

But anyways you are still "C". To you no one should profit and should only break even at best (and please do not say you didn't say this) which is as elitist as a band should not have a high production on the sound of their albums. People forget that Bathory and other bands at the time could not afford a higher production and would if they could. But ever since then it's been twisted to mean that Quorthon wanted a shitty production from the beginning to define what BM should be. Which is BS because when Quorthon/Bathory made more money in later years the production of his albums got way better. But anyways it's just more elitist BS. Music is a business as much as it's a art. Like I said alot of bands/labels could be profiting and you might not even know it and think they aren't. We can't see their bank accounts and such to know if they are or aren't.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

You've denied it more then you have admitted it.

Please show me where I have denied this, otherwise I will have to call you incorrect on this point.

It has never proved you right. I've understood your position from the very beginning I just choose to not agree with you on almost anything and you get bent out of shape because of it.

In that case, I would ask you to simply state your reasons for disagreeing instead of posting false interpretations of my positions.

I never think in terms of black and white, but you have. Am I going too slow for you?

In that case, please explain your apparent confusion with my response to your third quoted statement in this post.

My position has always been that a band or label can make music and profit without copromising their original vision then there is no need to take out the profit part of it. Dozens if not more bands/labels have proven that. You on the other hand do not think anyone should profit period!! A underground band can stick to their original musical vision and make a career out of it. I'm sure people on this forum can make a list of such bands and labels (Moribund and their roster is why I used them as a example).

Let me attempt to illustrate my point thusly:

Current scenario:
Profit motive exists.
Some bands maintain their artistic integrity.
Some bands sell out and make commercial music.

My proposed scenario:
Profit motive does not exist,
Some bands maintain their artistic integrity.
Some bands who would have sold out have either left the scene or have kept their artistic integrity with no money to tempt them.

Now, adjust these if you find them inaccurate, but this is how I see it. I find scenario #2 to be more favourable since it totally eliminates the commercialization of music. My current understanding is that you prefer scenario #1 because it allows some artist to make money off of their work. Have I got it right?

But anyways you are still "C". To you no one should profit and should only break even at best (and please do not say you didn't say this) which is as elitist as a band should not have a high production on the sound of their albums. People forget that Bathory and other bands at the time could not afford a higher production and would if they could. But ever since then it's been twisted to mean that Quorthon wanted a shitty production from the beginning to define what BM should be. Which is BS because when Quorthon/Bathory made more money in later years the production of his albums got way better. But anyways it's just more elitist BS. Music is a business as much as it's a art. Like I said alot of bands/labels could be profiting and you might not even know it and think they aren't. We can't see their bank accounts and such to know if they are or aren't.

Yes, later Bathory had better production but later Bathory also wasn't black metal, so I don't see how this proves anything. My understanding is that Emperor's early albums (Anthems, at least) were recorded in studios with thousands of dollars worth of equipment. While "poor" production may have initially been discovered by accident, this isn't relevant - the bands chose this sound because it created a certain atmosphere and conveyed the ideas of black metal far better than a slick professional studio production job would have.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

yes scenario #1... let the general public have their commercialized music (yes i like some but very few) and we have ours... in the existence of the universe... who really cares... to each his/her own...

I really think that if Quorthon/Bathory continued with Black Metal or did a occassional BM album that the production would of been high because that is where he was leaning towards... he didn't care what anyone else thought much less the elitists (I'm not calling you one since I know you get bent out of shape when i do, i meant in general) who think that all BM albums should have piss poor production to have that "atmospheric" feeling... to me at least he was a innovator and not a follower... He didn't have high production in the beginning due to lack of $$ but each album from the debut till Blood Fire Death (the last BM album he did in my opinion even though the viking element starts here) had a higher production then the previous album because he was making more $$ each time and had the backing of his father (BOSS) and his company Black Mark financially....

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Several points from my previous post have been ignored...

yes scenario #1... let the general public have their commercialized music (yes i like some but very few) and we have ours... in the existence of the universe... who really cares... to each his/her own...

While I find your position sadly apathetic and could not endorse it, at least you have made it clear.

I really think that if Quorthon/Bathory continued with Black Metal or did a occassional BM album that the production would of been high because that is where he was leaning towards... he didn't care what anyone else thought much less the elitists (I'm not calling you one since I know you get bent out of shape when i do, i meant in general) who think that all BM albums should have piss poor production to have that "atmospheric" feeling... to me at least he was a innovator and not a follower... He didn't have high production in the beginning due to lack of $$ but each album from the debut till Blood Fire Death (the last BM album he did in my opinion even though the viking element starts here) had a higher production then the previous album because he was making more $$ each time and had the backing of his father (BOSS) and his company Black Mark financially....

Two requests:

1) Either provide proof for this or clarify that this is speculation.

2) Reiterate the connection this tangent has to the greater discussion because I'm not seeing it.