The illegal download/piracy/legal download/music business in 2011 thread

[Symphony]

We've been talking a lot across many threads about these and other related issues so I figured it was about time we consolidated them under one umbrella.

Check out this interesting discussion from the PPUSA forum as well

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/652273-building-new-music-industry.html

 

[fool_in_paradise]

I think however you try and justify it illegal downloading of songs is exactly that... ILLEGAL!
If you download music without paying for it you get it in a substandard format without the artwork, without the booklet, without the consent of the artist. It is stealing and as good as shoplifting an album from a shop.

There is a debate with people who have a conscience that pirating music gives them a chance to sample the album before they commit to buying which is a bit better and many bands now offer their fans a chance to listen to the whole album by streaming it on myspace on release for a short period.
Failing that songs always end up on youtube....

The music industry is definitely not what it used to be and we're still in the period of change. whatever the case, the fact remains it costs money to make an album so why should you take it for free?

 

[Gibbon]

I wonder one thing steve, do you think it's okay if someone first purchase an album but then download a song which isn't released on the original cd...like the japan-only song? I've had this problem and many times ended up downloading the "special edition song".

Like me, i bhought the original cds from PQ but then downloaded the japan only song...do you think that's wrong? i'm just curious cause i think this is really intressting...also sorry for doing that:/ i myself am strongly against music downloading, but i did what i did...anyways, thanks!

 

[1928]

Not only is it theft, but it's even worse than physical theft because it's not only you who is taking a copy. It doesn't just go away once you take it - it's still up there for everybody else to snag a copy, too.

I have seen quite a few bands do exactly what was already mentioned, streaming the entire album for a while before taking it down... it's an interesting idea, but I also think it's kind of sad that bands have to do that. Even Guns N' Roses had to do that when they finally released Chinese Democracy, though I have to say they did an absolutely terrible job promoting it (which they barely did anyway).

I do wonder what musicians' opinions are on Gibbon's situation as well... many times I've been unaware of a bonus track on an album after I bought it, and went to download the bonus track myself because I didn't want to spend another $25-35+ for a second copy with only one, rarely two bonus tracks.

 

[Indestructible]

Yeah it's a really bad thing to download music for free like that from the internet without paying for the artist's hard work on it.

However unfortunately it's indeed my only option, or atleast the only easy option because of where I live and how ignorant I am when it comes to buying stuff online.

 

[AlexJacobii]

I sometimes pirate music, I will admit that. However I believe pirating music, videos, etc. is a complete dick move. Usually when I pirate I do it to sample the artist because their music is not popular or available on any online radios, etc. Usually if I like a band I buy their music, though once I buy a CD and a shirt I do not hesitate to download any of the material I own from that band, I don't steal but if it is taking a while in the mail (like my Ascension EP and probably the new PQ) I simply download it in advance because I payed for it already so why should I not be enjoying it? I do not believe in pirating to steal, pirating to find new artists that you like and plan to buy or "pirating" music you already bought seems perfectly fine to me. Yes I am aware of iTunes and other stores can get me the CD before it would get here in the mail, but I want the artwork and lyrics damn it!

 

[Indestructible]

Yeah I think that many people that pirate music do it because they can't get it any other way and not because they are in favor of stealing music from artists.

 

[AlexJacobii]

Yeah I think that many people that pirate music do it because they can't get it any other way and not because they are in favor of stealing music from artists.

Well you can always get it from iTunes or such, even without a credit card. But some bands simply are not on iTunes so you are FORCED to pirate them if you want to listen, that happens with about 1 in 15 bands I look up, it doesn't happen a lot but it is enough that I end up pirating about once ever 2 weeks or so. Though usually if the band is good I buy some CD's or merch or both, or if they are in town I go to a show.

 

[1928]

I can only think of one situation in which I can try to 'justify' (I use that term very loosely here) my pirating.

It was a couple years ago when I was looking for Timeless Miracle's debut album. I was going to buy it, but it wasn't on eBay, and on Amazon the only copies they had were new and they were going for, I kid you not, about 79 USD. I absolutely refused to pay that much for a CD, plus shipping, especially for a band I had never heard before, so I pirated it. And even that was a pain in the ass, because nobody even had the album for download.

And yet I do know it was wrong because I stole the album. But that's the only situation in which I will try to defend it a little... I just went and checked Amazon for the album, and they finally got new copies, so it's only 30 USD... I'll consider it. I think the most I've ever paid for a CD was 40 and 45 each for both of Aquaria's albums, the Japanese versions with the bonus tracks. Well worth the money, but... I really don't know how willing I am to pay *that* much for a CD again, even an import. 30 for Power Quest is even pushing it, but I'm getting it because I love PQ.

 

[Indestructible]

How does buying from iTunes work?(like...the payment process/methods)

To me it happens about 10 in 15 bands not 1 in 15 bands

 

[Indestructible]

You know...I pirated Timeless Miracle's album too. After you posted the song in the rate songs thread....I loved them and got from a torrents site

Man I'm a thief...

 

[Symphony]

Referring to Gibbon's question about downloading the bonus tracks when you've already bought the regular album.......personally I'm not going to be too hard on that as you have already spent your cash first time round.

It is interesting though....and I'm sure my age has a huge part to play in this lol! I've never even visited a torrent site or similar and probably never will. I come from a time where the only samples you would get would be the single released prior to an album....if indeed there was a single released.

We used to have a record store in the market in the town where I lived between 1987 and 1990 where the dude there had a God Like knowledge of metal (I thought I knew it all at that age, as we all do when we are teenagers but this guy was awesome). I would go every Saturday to check what he had got in and just chat with him about metal in general and he would say things like "Oh so you want the new Testament record Steve, well why not check out this German band called Paradox too?" And then he would play me a little bit and say "if you don't like it, bring it back and I'll trade it for something else"

I was also heavily involved in tape trading back then with guys all over the world.....but this was demo stuff rather than officially released product. I've got a load of cassettes at home from that period featuring early incarnations of bands that went on to be Entombed, Deicide, Death amongst many others.

As we all know the business is changing now quite significantly. One argument I often hear is people saying "Yeah I illegally downloaded your album, but I will buy a ticket to see you on tour". Well that's fine....except......tour support from record companies is calculated on CD sales. So you may have 500 people in London who have bought your album and another 1000 who have illegally downloaded it. So for your London gig the record company will calculate your tour support based on the CD sales not on the number of "promises to buy a ticket" that you may have. Multiply that out across a tour and you have a sure fire recipe for making a loss unfortunately.

We've seen lots of ideas around such as "Giving the album away free when you buy a ticket for a show" or "Giving the album away free with a t-shirt or other item or merchandise".



One thing that really needs to be considered is that downloading/mp3/internet whatever you want to label it as is breeding a generation who don't necessarily buy into the concept of the "album". I listen to kids talking and it's all about how many songs they have on their iPod rather than how many albums. "Have you heard the new song by X" as opposed to "Have you heard their new album"

I've considered this quite a lot.......for example, if I were to do a solo album.....would I release the album as usual or release a song per month over 12 months or 2 songs per month over 6 months? Or would I not record an album and just periodically record a song and put it out there.

Well.....I think that's quite enough from me for now!

 

[1928]

As we all know the business is changing now quite significantly. One argument I often hear is people saying "Yeah I illegally downloaded your album, but I will buy a ticket to see you on tour". Well that's fine....except......tour support from record companies is calculated on CD sales. So you may have 500 people in London who have bought your album and another 1000 who have illegally downloaded it. So for your London gig the record company will calculate your tour support based on the CD sales not on the number of "promises to buy a ticket" that you may have. Multiply that out across a tour and you have a sure fire recipe for making a loss unfortunately.

This is the argument I have heard for years from people... and unfortunately, no matter how hard you argue what you just said with them, Steve, it seems like they refuse to accept it as the truth. The end rebuttal always seems to be, "Well maybe they should make better music, hurf durf" and you can't argue with such an ignorant statement like that.

I truly am jealous in a way of the story of Young Steve you told - that's an experience I've always heard about but have not experienced, and I sadly never will - I've been growing up in the age of Napster, Kazaa, Limewire, and torrents...

I'm very interested to see how everything will have evolved by the time I'm your age, Steve... only half your age later this month, I'm slowly catching up!

 

[Indestructible]

I'll tell you something as well guys...

When I was younger, about the age of 8, I never even know what an album is. I've only got to listen to local "Mizrahi" music(a popular genre of music here in Israel) and only got to hear a few songs that were almost always singles. I've never got to hear a full album on a CD...and I didn't know a thing about genres and artists and such

WHen I was about 13 or 14 was when I started to get really into music. Everything, from what an album is to how to download it from torrents was what I learned. I was never a person who was rushing into stores when I've heard somewhere that X album was released....but to be honest, if I would be taught how to get music that way in the very beginning, I would probably never even know what pirated music is.

I really understand you Steve and what you've tried to say from that story of you when you were younger. I really try to keep stuff like that in mind and let it influence me....however, the only thing is that I am unfortunatley unable to get things the old and traditional way. If I was for example living in the UK I would definitely buy my music because it would be available nearly everywhere. But here, it's not that way unfortunately.

But it was pretty exciting to hear your story steve and I hope that mine was somewhat interesting or exciting as well.

Later guys

 

[Power_Metal_Dom]

This is a topic we've covered before and it provokes interesting discussion and thoughts, I've expressed my own previously and I don't think that's changed too much. If anything I'd like to retract the "sure download it so long as you buy it at some point" notion because you'd still be contributing to other's piracy. Better to remove yourself entirely as a link in the whole sordid chain to discourage/thwart others.

Also, in regard to SL I wasn't sure whether your ignorance of how not knowing something is ignorance was ironic or a clever joke! In any case the point remains, ignorance is no excuse. If you don't know how to buy music then you make efforts to find out instead of shrugging and saying because it's easier the crime is ok. That is also no excuse either, just because something is easier for you doesn't make it ok to do. I'm not meaning to be judgemental or to single you out in particular but these are the sorts of excuses that a lot of pirates use and they just don't wash.

Back in my day (old man mode engaged) if you didn't have the money for something you just didn't get it or you saved up until you had enough. Younger generations these days seem to think they're entitled to something without having to pay. This isn't stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family after all.

 

[Indestructible]

Obviously what I'm doing(and millions of others doing) is a bad thing and is considered a crime, but I want my life to be easy, not hard.

if you really read my little story above you would understand what's my stance about this man....to be honest I haven't tried to make any excuses at all here. Because personally, when I want to obtain ANYTHING(not just music) I try to find the easiest way to do so. Has nothing to do with excuses really, it's really not who I am.

 

[Symphony]

Very interesting to hear your opinions and thoughts guys. I guess some things are matters of principles...which again seems to be something that is going out of fashion.

One thing I've never understood though is that if someone has bought an album or obtained a promo copy......what on earth would make someone want to make that available to everyone else for nothing.....can't understand that at all.

Dom makes a very valid point about "wanting something for nothing". You only have to look at society in general, particularly here in the UK, where people who have been given housing by the local authority or council can afford to have Sky TV, 2 cars all the modern things.....and yet those of us who actually have to pay full whack for our house can't afford the "nicer" things in life.

My parents always used to say that you would appreciate something more if you have to work and save for it....and I have to say that I believe they were quite correct.

 

[Indestructible]

I mean you have to work for ANYTHING to some degree....nothing comes completely easy like that! Yeah your parents were correct if that's what they told you.

Anyway to answer your question man, I think people want it to be available to everyone else because they either get something out of it(like, if they share it with a community on some forum or website, they recieve points/bonuses or whatever), or, because they simply want other people to have it.

But still those people that share it with others only care about the music and not about how hard the artist worked on it. I feel sorry that I'm pretty much forced to get my music this way.

 

[Power_Metal_Dom]

Obviously what I'm doing(and millions of others doing) is a bad thing and is considered a crime, but I want my life to be easy, not hard.

if you really read my little story above you would understand what's my stance about this man....to be honest I haven't tried to make any excuses at all here. Because personally, when I want to obtain ANYTHING(not just music) I try to find the easiest way to do so. Has nothing to do with excuses really, it's really not who I am.

So "because I want things to be easy in my life" isn't an excuse?

No, sorry dude but it really is. It's really easier for me to just walk onto a train instead of queuing up to buy a ticket. It's easier for me to take money from a colleagues coat. It's easier for me to just take what I want off the shop shelf, etc etc. None of it justified because it takes less effort on my part. None of it justified because I didn't know what the alternatives are. To admit that this is not just restricted to music is, frankly, worrying.

 

[Indestructible]

So "because I want things to be easy in my life" isn't an excuse?

No, sorry dude but it really is. It's really easier for me to just walk onto a train instead of queuing up to buy a ticket. It's easier for me to take money from a colleagues coat. It's easier for me to just take what I want off the shop shelf, etc etc. None of it justified because it takes less effort on my part. None of it justified because I didn't know what the alternatives are. To admit that this is not just restricted to music is, frankly, worrying.

I'm not trying to bring up excuses here, that alone justifies me here, and it's somewhat annoying that you pick on me like this dude.

I do things the easiest way they can be, if I wouldn't, I would have a pretty rough life. That goes for anyone, not just me.