The Intelligent Design/Evolution Discussion Thread

[cookiecutter]

Well here is the thing, you don’t have to be ‘secular’ or against religion to excel with science. Take a look at Soviet genetics and Lysenkoism, a pseudoscientific concept that denies biological determinism, the communist were utterly opposed to religion, but their ‘science’ was way of track as well.

This is true, but only if you can separate your religious mindset from your scientific one. Notable examples include Francis Collins and Owen Gingerich. The religious mindset of believe without evidence is the exact opposite of the way science determines the nature of reality. Also, I don't know what the Soviets were doing, but Biological Determinism is incorrect.

As far as Christianity being ‘prevalent’ in the United States federal government, that is pure delusion, in fact, why can’t Christians prey in school if ‘America’ is so Christian? Also, why is it ‘bigotry’ to suggest that America was meant to be a Christian nation? If any politician, including our president dared to say such a thing, they would be attacked by the media.

This is where you are most wrong. Christians can absolutely pray ("prey" was a rather funny typo) in schools. No one can stop them. What the government has done, and absolutely should do, is stop MANDATORY prayer. I, as an atheist, never want to waste my valuable time praying. If some kid in my class wants to pray before a test or something, that's his choice. It is a common misconception that the government "took prayer out of schools" when all they did was ensure my constitutional right NOT to pray.

Second, it is bigotry to assert that America is a Christian nation because 1.)IT'S NOT TRUE! Jesus is NEVER mentioned in the founding documents, and Thomas Jefferson has said numerous anti Christian things, along with many other founding fathers. A quick google search should get you some nice quotes. 2.) Christianity is not the only religious belief in this country, and to assert that it has a special place in our country is bigoted towards the good 75 million non Christians in this country.

The things is, there are a lot of Christians in America so politicians try to do anything to get their votes by giving the voters the impression that they will somehow stick up for their values, this doesn’t happen of course. George Bush vetoes these bills of course not because he cares about Christianity, but rather to give the impression that he does so he doesn’t kill some of his support. As you pointed out in that source, more Americas would vote for a black, female, or gay president before an atheist so of course any politician is going to say he or she is Christian. In fact his administration isn’t Christian, they are mostly neo-conservatives who care about Israel, not Christianity. Even the so called ‘Christians’ care more about the Jewish state which is based on Jewish genetics, not religion.

I think you are being too cynical here. I do honestly believe George Bush and many administration people are Christian. It also stands to reason that the majority of the Congress is Christian. I am positive that they do some things purely for the votes they get from right wing christian bigots, like the Gay Marriage Ammendment, but I also don't think they fake their religion purely for votes.

 

[skeptik]

Every session of Congress is opened with prayer.

 

[Patrick R.]

This is true, but only if you can separate your religious mindset from your scientific one. Notable examples include Francis Collins and Owen Gingerich. The religious mindset of believe without evidence is the exact opposite of the way science determines the nature of reality. Also, I don't know what the Soviets were doing, but Biological Determinism is incorrect.

That is my point exactly, if you can separate your religious beliefs from science. One of the main anti-evolutionist arguments is that evolutionist argue that there is 'no god'. Some may do just that, but others stick to the theory of universal common descent like myself.

What exactly do you mean that biological determinism is wrong? Do you not believe that genes have an effect on behavior? The environment can as well, but genes are more of a factor. Of course, that all depends on what we call 'biological determinism', to say that only genes have an effect on behavior wouldn't be correct, but genes have a greater effect on behavior then environment.

This is where you are most wrong. Christians can absolutely pray ("prey" was a rather funny typo) in schools. No one can stop them. What the government has done, and absolutely should do, is stop MANDATORY prayer. I, as an atheist, never want to waste my valuable time praying. If some kid in my class wants to pray before a test or something, that's his choice. It is a common misconception that the government "took prayer out of schools" when all they did was ensure my constitutional right NOT to pray.

Second, it is bigotry to assert that America is a Christian nation because 1.)IT'S NOT TRUE! Jesus is NEVER mentioned in the founding documents, and Thomas Jefferson has said numerous anti Christian things, along with many other founding fathers. A quick google search should get you some nice quotes. 2.) Christianity is not the only religious belief in this country, and to assert that it has a special place in our country is bigoted towards the good 75 million non Christians in this country.

This only proves my point that American isn’t the theocracy people try to make it out to be. But in any case, America is far from a country that our founding fathers wanted it to be, this nation was never meant to be a nation dedicated to the integration of all peoples physically and genetically different, but that obviously isn’t the case today.

I think you are being too cynical here. I do honestly believe George Bush and many administration people are Christian. It also stands to reason that the majority of the Congress is Christian. I am positive that they do some things purely for the votes they get from right wing christian bigots, like the Gay Marriage Ammendment, but I also don't think they fake their religion purely for votes.

Let me put it to you this way, the United States federal government and the politicians that control it aren’t the Christian zealots they are made out to be, not in a traditional sense that is. Some of them most certainly are, but take a look at how much money they get...it is obvious that they are loyal to money rather then god. The Christian character is slowly withering away in the United States, not that this is a good or bad thing. We aren’t as secular as Norway, but we aren’t Inquisitors either. I don’t favor either side, I favor evolution and the theory of universal common descent to explain the various forms of life on earth.

 

[skeptik]

Can you be more outright with what you are trying to suggest?

 

[Patrick R.]

Can you be more outright with what you are trying to suggest?

I'm suggesting that America isn't the theocracy many people think it is.

 

[skeptik]

That governmental policy is not heavily influenced by the Christian Right?

 

[cookiecutter]

What exactly do you mean that biological determinism is wrong? Do you not believe that genes have an effect on behavior? The environment can as well, but genes are more of a factor. Of course, that all depends on what we call 'biological determinism', to say that only genes have an effect on behavior wouldn't be correct, but genes have a greater effect on behavior then environment.

It is true genes have an influence on our behavior, but the term biological determinism usually means the theory that our behavior is, well, determined by our biology, and this just isn't the case. Humans, despite what you say, are all nearly genetically identical. Yet, human behavior varies incredibly throughout the world. I would argue that culture is a more important factor in behavior, but we are talking about things that are hard to quantify. Some evidence I would use is the examples of feral children. They have all our genes, yet don't behave in a way we perceive as human.

I'm suggesting that America isn't the theocracy many people think it is.

I think you are attacking a strawman here. America, relative to actual theocracies, is a very liberal country. However, there are still injustices and prejudices against those of no religion. See Necuratul's point about the prayer in Congress, the University of Minnesota study saying atheists are the least trusted minority, and that fact that Intelligent Design is even considered plausible. These are what atheists are complaining about.

 

[Patrick R.]

That governmental policy is not heavily influenced by the Christian Right?

The 'Christian' right are Zionist, they support Israel more then Christianity...that explains why they support Jews more then Christians. The Zionist political movement has more power in the Western world the the Christian right, the latter is completely politically subverted.

 

[skeptik]

You think that the US government supports Jewish policies more than Christian policies? Do you even live in the US? I can't fathom how you could come to this conclusion and 1) live in the US and 2) actually pay attention to politics, because there's no other way you could reach that conclusion unless you're brainwashed by some anti-Zionist propaganda.

 

[Patrick R.]

It is true genes have an influence on our behavior, but the term biological determinism usually means the theory that our behavior is, well, determined by our biology, and this just isn't the case. Humans, despite what you say, are all nearly genetically identical. Yet, human behavior varies incredibly throughout the world. I would argue that culture is a more important factor in behavior, but we are talking about things that are hard to quantify. Some evidence I would use is the examples of feral children. They have all our genes, yet don't behave in a way we perceive as human.

Humans share around 99.9 % of our genes, but that doesn’t mean we are all the same, humans share around 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees, but of course it would be foolish to suggest that humans and chimpanzees are the same. Evolutionary theory perfectly predicts that humans, despite our incredible differences, would share 99.9% of our DNA and that goes for our genetic similarity with chimpanzees, we share millions of years of common ancestry, much of it is pre-human. If the evolutionary theory of universal common descent is true, then all living organisms are the descendants of a single species that lived billions of years ago, a single celled organism. In fact, all life forms on earth share the same genetic code, or close variants of this genetic code, even newly discovered species share this universal genetic code.

I wouldn’t argue that culture has more of an impact on behavior then genetics, the Japanese have adopted many aspects of Western culture, from our legal philosophies, to the structure of their government bodies etc, but of course they refused to allow those of European descent to settle in their land in large numbers do to the massive physical and mental characteristics that distinguished Asian and European peoples. This is just one example. With regards to undomesticated children in the wild, that is a good example, but consider this, if you were cloned do you believe that you would think the same if you were raised in a different environment? Certainly you would have the same desires and taste for certain things, with different life experiences that is.

I think you are attacking a strawman here. America, relative to actual theocracies, is a very liberal country. However, there are still injustices and prejudices against those of no religion. See Necuratul's point about the prayer in Congress, the University of Minnesota study saying atheists are the least trusted minority, and that fact that Intelligent Design is even considered plausible. These are what atheists are complaining about.

Public opinion isn’t in favor of atheist, even if it was, that doesn’t matter, humans will just find another thing to complain about and also wage war against each other for simplistic and trivial reasons, or at least I see it trivial but of course the majority of humans and our history doesn’t see it as something trivial. But we still don’t have any witch hunts, state sponsored or otherwise to my knowledge. Congressional prayers? Is that mandatory?



But I do agree with you 100% about injustices against ‘atheist’, that word itself can start controversy with many people thinking that it is synonymous with ‘Satanism’, something that isn’t true. If somebody has NO religion or any spiritual beliefs doesn’t make them bad people at all.

 

[Patrick R.]

You think that the US government supports Jewish policies more than Christian policies? Do you even live in the US? I can't fathom how you could come to this conclusion and 1) live in the US and 2) actually pay attention to politics, because there's no other way you could reach that conclusion unless you're brainwashed by some anti-Zionist propaganda.

Ok, think a little bit, why is it that the USS Liberty was attacked by Israel but yet very few people are aware of it? Why else does Israel receive billions of US dollars? Why is it that the Jewish lobby has more power over Congressional affairs then any other lobby? What about the Israeli spies that were caught in America after 9/11? Some Mossad agents were apprehended filming the trade centers burn in the back ground and they were allowed to go back to Israel without investigation. What do you think this war in Iraq is for? It is for Israel’s security in the Middle East. I could go on all day.

 

[skeptik]

You're connecting dots that don't necessarily go together. And no, the Jewish lobby does not have more power than any other lobby. Nobody is saying that the US heavily supports Israel. However, everybody already knows this, and you're not making any revolutionary points by suggesting that. You have to be an idiot to think that the US supports Israel more than they support the Christian Right though.

Also, try to source your claims when you're trying to make a bold claim. It's certainly helpful, especially when you're trying to draw conclusions from events that are not immediately clear.

 

[cookiecutter]

Humans share around 99.9 % of our genes, but that doesn’t mean we are all the same, humans share around 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees, but of course it would be foolish to suggest that humans and chimpanzees are the same. Evolutionary theory perfectly predicts that humans, despite our incredible differences, would share 99.9% of our DNA and that goes for our genetic similarity with chimpanzees, we share millions of years of common ancestry, much of it is pre-human. If the evolutionary theory of universal common descent is true, then all living organisms are the descendants of a single species that lived billions of years ago, a single celled organism. In fact, all life forms on earth share the same genetic code, or close variants of this genetic code, even newly discovered species share this universal genetic code.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Yeah I completely believe evolutionary theory. I just don't think there are incredible biological differences between humans, and believing that will only give basis to discrimination.

the Japanese have adopted many aspects of Western culture, from our legal philosophies, to the structure of their government bodies etc, but of course they refused to allow those of European descent to settle in their land in large numbers do to the massive physical and mental characteristics that distinguished Asian and European peoples. This is just one example. With regards to undomesticated children in the wild, that is a good example, but consider this, if you were cloned do you believe that you would think the same if you were raised in a different environment? Certainly you would have the same desires and taste for certain things, with different life experiences that is.

Again I'm not sure what you are trying to get across here. Are you saying that having a diverse culture is bad because of these "massive differences" you keep referencing? A clone of me may have a similar base personality as me, but if he was raised in another culture he would be a totally different person despite sharing every gene with me. Just look at identical twins. Even with sharing genes AND upbringing, they are never exactly the same, which is what biological determinism would suggest.

Public opinion isn’t in favor of atheist, even if it was, that doesn’t matter, humans will just find another thing to complain about and also wage war against each other for simplistic and trivial reasons, or at least I see it trivial but of course the majority of humans and our history doesn’t see it as something trivial. But we still don’t have any witch hunts, state sponsored or otherwise to my knowledge. Congressional prayers? Is that mandatory?

I really have no idea what you are talking about here. The prayer to open the Congress is mandatory yes.

 

[Matt]

I'm doing a paper on evolution for school. Give me some evidence. Go!

 

[Patrick R.]

You're connecting dots that don't necessarily go together. And no, the Jewish lobby does not have more power than any other lobby. Nobody is saying that the US heavily supports Israel. However, everybody already knows this, and you're not making any revolutionary points by suggesting that. You have to be an idiot to think that the US supports Israel more than they support the Christian Right though.

Also, try to source your claims when you're trying to make a bold claim. It's certainly helpful, especially when you're trying to draw conclusions from events that are not immediately clear.

The Jewish lobby has more power and influence then any other lobby when you take the neo-conservatives, AIPAC, the ADL etc and put them all together, things pretty much go their way when it is in their best interest. You must acknowledge that the Christian right supports Zionism and Israel to the fullest extent, they are synonymous.


Ok, source my claims? Sure thing, I will start with a subject you refused to acknowledge, the USS liberty, here is a relevant quote from the USS Liberty memorial website.

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. This USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

http://www.gtr5.com/
You can also listen to the Fox news broadcast about the Israeli spying on the US.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

You can also read a Harvard study on the Israeli Lobby, by John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. The study includes a great deal of footnotes.



http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

There is much more really.

 

[Patrick R.]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Yeah I completely believe evolutionary theory. I just don't think there are incredible biological differences between humans, and believing that will only give basis to discrimination.

There are incredible biological differences between humans, more then enough to assign them to taxonomic categories based on their physical appearance. This will not give basis to discrimination unless it is taken out of context in a non-scientific perspective.

Again I'm not sure what you are trying to get across here. Are you saying that having a diverse culture is bad because of these "massive differences" you keep referencing? A clone of me may have a similar base personality as me, but if he was raised in another culture he would be a totally different person despite sharing every gene with me. Just look at identical twins. Even with sharing genes AND upbringing, they are never exactly the same, which is what biological determinism would suggest.

Having a diverse culture has serious consequences, historically speaking that is. Even with Europe, differences in political structure and ideologies lead to the Peloponnesian War between two major Greek city states and their allies, Athens and Sparta which killed some of the smartest Greeks in the classical world.

The Romans conquered many peoples and their armies over vast amounts of territory, especially for their time, their attempt to Romanize other cultures, especially the Germanics, had serious wars, death and murder as a result.

The Germanic tribes such as the Franks and Saxons, their former become Christian and forced that latter to convert, sometimes through bloodshed during the Dark Ages.

The German Teutonic Knights conquered the original Prussians, forced them to except Christianity and then they old Baltic Prussians became German as a result.

The French revolution, Frenchman killed Frenchman over different social classes, with thousands of French people including beheaded, Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI…this was known as the ‘reign of terror’.

The Napoleonic wars created much division within Europe, with more Europeans killed.

The formation of the German Empire and the acquisition of Polish land created even more tension between Germans and Poles.

The outbreak of the first world war was a direct result of having many cultures under one form of government, the dual monarchy of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

World War II broke right afterwards with unsurpassed murder and rape ever since.

I could go on all day with just European cultures hating each other, trying to blend them together is just a recipe for disaster. This is just culture, trying bringing genetics into the picture, the Ottomans genocide in Europe, the Arabic Muslims taking blacks as slaves in the Middle East, Attila the Hun’s rampage and rape of Europe, European colonialism etc.

People of different physical and genetic background will never get along. European peoples will assimilate one another, despite cultural differences, the United States is proof of that. Genetic and physical differences are different, people sort themselves out based on the distinctiveness of their people. It is Gause's Law of competitive exclusion here, to distinct peoples can’t live together in the same ecological niche competing for the same resources.

I really have no idea what you are talking about here. The prayer to open the Congress is mandatory yes.

I was kidding, but I wonder how the atheist Congressman take that?

 

[cookiecutter]

There are incredible biological differences between humans, more then enough to assign them to taxonomic categories based on their physical appearance. This will not give basis to discrimination unless it is taken out of context in a non-scientific perspective.

I would like for you to give a legitimate link for such a large claim before I believe.

Having a diverse culture has serious consequences, historically speaking that is. Even with Europe, differences in political structure and ideologies lead to the Peloponnesian War between two major Greek city states and their allies, Athens and Sparta which killed some of the smartest Greeks in the classical world.

The Romans conquered many peoples and their armies over vast amounts of territory, especially for their time, their attempt to Romanize other cultures, especially the Germanics, had serious wars, death and murder as a result.

The Germanic tribes such as the Franks and Saxons, their former become Christian and forced that latter to convert, sometimes through bloodshed during the Dark Ages.

The German Teutonic Knights conquered the original Prussians, forced them to except Christianity and then they old Baltic Prussians became German as a result.

The French revolution, Frenchman killed Frenchman over different social classes, with thousands of French people including beheaded, Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI…this was known as the ‘reign of terror’.

The Napoleonic wars created much division within Europe, with more Europeans killed.

The formation of the German Empire and the acquisition of Polish land created even more tension between Germans and Poles.

The outbreak of the first world war was a direct result of having many cultures under one form of government, the dual monarchy of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

World War II broke right afterwards with unsurpassed murder and rape ever since.

I could go on all day with just European cultures hating each other, trying to blend them together is just a recipe for disaster. This is just culture, trying bringing genetics into the picture, the Ottomans genocide in Europe, the Arabic Muslims taking blacks as slaves in the Middle East, Attila the Hun’s rampage and rape of Europe, European colonialism etc.

People of different physical and genetic background will never get along. European peoples will assimilate one another, despite cultural differences, the United States is proof of that. Genetic and physical differences are different, people sort themselves out based on the distinctiveness of their people. It is Gause's Law of competitive exclusion here, to distinct peoples can’t live together in the same ecological niche competing for the same resources.

I think that you are showing many examples of how keeping to your own group and ethnocentrism are bad. Those things didn't happen because people lived together, they happened because they didn't. Your historical examples are also flawed.

1. Peloponesian war was a result of Athens attempting dominance over Greece, and Sparta, Corinth and Thebes not being pleased. Beides they were all Greeks so your point is irrelevant here.

2. "Romanization" and forced conversion only support me, because those are examples of one culture not sharing with another. The Romans though often did share with others and were successful. Look at Greece as an example

3. Napoleonic Wars were politically based again. There was no racial agenda.

4. French Revolution is again not really relevant because it was all French people fighting. Social class is not based on genetics (besides royalty but I don't think that's what you mean).

5. World War I was in no way caused by the diversity of peoples within Austria-Hungary.

Also if we have learned anything from Social Darwinism, it should be that you cannot apply laws of the animal kingdom to humanity, due to our uniqueness

 

[CAIRATH]

Well here is the thing, you don’t have to be ‘secular’ or against religion to excel with science. Take a look at Soviet genetics and Lysenkoism, a pseudoscientific concept that denies biological determinism, the communist were utterly opposed to religion, but their ‘science’ was way of track as well.

That explanation is completely irrelevant to your initial claim there as well the claim I made that you responded to. The only thing that your example shows is that a secular state doesn't necessarily imply a healthy environment for sound scientific research. Something I never claimed to begin with and that doesn't in any way disprove that a religious state doesn't either. My original claim is that a religious state tends to be a counter productive environment to scientific research and education because it is a fairly obvious observation that science and religion do not get along on many areas and their "methodologies" (as far as that even applies to faith based philosophies) are mostly incompatible.

A state where key decision makers claim to be acting in the name of God and guided blindly by Judeo-Christian values (regardless of whether they believe them personally or whether they just need to keep up appearances, something I will get to later on) is never going to approve of things such as stem cell research and is not guaranteed to defend the scientific method in areas where it clashes with the religious dogma in question (see evolution vs. creationism/ID).

And yes you can always argue that in theory it is possible to combine the two but that only really works on an individual level where the person in question can make their own personal moral and philosophical concessions to somehow make it work (as an atheist I don't know how they do it, but there certainly are respected scientists even in the field of biology who are also Christians) but as a government policy I don't see how that is ever going to work. Not to mention that there are other issues aside from scientific development that make a religiously influenced government undesirable in general.

As far as Christianity being ‘prevalent’ in the United States federal government, that is pure delusion, in fact, why can’t Christians prey in school if ‘America’ is so Christian? Also, why is it ‘bigotry’ to suggest that America was meant to be a Christian nation? If any politician, including our president dared to say such a thing, they would be attacked by the media.

The things is, there are a lot of Christians in America so politicians try to do anything to get their votes by giving the voters the impression that they will somehow stick up for their values, this doesn’t happen of course. George Bush vetoes these bills of course not because he cares about Christianity, but rather to give the impression that he does so he doesn’t kill some of his support. As you pointed out in that source, more Americas would vote for a black, female, or gay president before an atheist so of course any politician is going to say he or she is Christian. In fact his administration isn’t Christian, they are mostly neo-conservatives who care about Israel, not Christianity. Even the so called ‘Christians’ care more about the Jewish state which is based on Jewish genetics, not religion.

So judging from this reply and your others in this thread your whole point is that the US Government is only "pretending" to be Christian because the overwhelming majority of the American public is?

I have two problems with that line of reasoning.

1.) Where is the evidence? What are you basing all these assumptions on? Assuming that the vast majority of the US Government is Christian is an entirely reasonable thing to do because it is what they claim to be. Now I'm sure you're right that is going to include people who simply say they are Christian because it is not yet socially acceptable enough to be an atheist in America, but how can you make any claims as to how many people that entails and what their true motives are?

2.) More importantly, if for argument's sake we accept that all you claimed there is true, how does it really make any difference? Do I care that George W. Bush is not really a new born Christian but instead an atheist pretending to be Christian? In the end he has to follow the same course of action that he would have if he really were a Christian. So whether it's all pretence or not, in the end the US Government is still firmly govered along the lines of a Christian state. Whether the drive originates in the American people's expectations and demands for their representatives or whether it originates in the personal views of the representatives themselves really doesn't change the consequences in any way that I can see and is more of an academic matter than anything else.

Zionism and to what extent it influences the US Government's decision making process is an entirely separate topic as far as I'm concerned and really doesn't influence the aspects that we were discussing in this thread. That has more to do with foreign policy than anything else.

So to sum up the point I originally made:

Is the religious situation in America as bad as for instance some of the Islam regimes? No. Is it anywhere near as good as it could, and given its large influence and power in the world, probably should be? Not by a longshot. There are plenty of Western European countries that have already shown that it is quite possible to run a secular government unconstrained by religious agendas, bigotry and backwards thinking while at the same time giving its inhabitants the freedom to practice their religion of choice freely.

 

[skeptik]

Israel is not synonymous with Zionism. Supporting Israel as a state that has a right to exist does not explicitly coincide with the notion of "a homeland for the Jewish people." Also, directly linking neo-conservatism with Zionism is another erroneous claim on your part. And again, if you think that any facets of Zionism found in the US government supersedes the policies of the Christian Right, then you are either genuinely ignorant or are deceived by anti-Zionist conspiracy theorists. The vast majority of the support of Zionism is through the Christian Right. Zionism is supported insofar as it supports the Christian Right. Thus, your claim is patently wrong by default, as support of Zionism is enclosed within the sphere of influence of the Christian Right, which is more expansive than that of Zionism. The only other support that Israel gets rests solely in the fact that Jews in America make massive contributions in the political arena despite being a feeble minority in terms of population.

By the way, I was asking you to source the claims that you were drawing from these events, not the events themselves. You're not telling me anything new. The case of the USS Liberty is ambiguous at best, for example. To use that as a claim of "supporting Zionism" is not very useful. Not only does it have nothing to do with Zionism insofar as Zionism is understood by definition (but rather support of Israel as an integral political ally), but the actual circumstances surrounding the incident preclude one from drawing an accurate conclusion from it. You cannot conclusively say that Israel intentionally attacked the Liberty. If you mean to do this, then you are just showing your pre-established bias, as evidenced in the debate that you had in the Royal Carnage forum as well.

 

[cookiecutter]

Supporting a democracy with a similar political slant as ours in a vital and dangerous region of the world is just smart. Their Judaism is irrelevant.