The nature of "value"

[Justin S.]

Every argument eventually leads to the dead end of value construction, and this is why there is no consensus on anything (subjectivity). However, i see the real conflict (as with all things) between metaphysics and the tangible. As our knowledge through science increases, i see this gap and conflict only increasing in intensity. My argument is that the inate properties and functioning of the brain, in conjuction with the subconsciousness dictate many values relative to humanity regardless of abstract pondering or philosophical thought. For example, the value of children or mating. Its quite easy to abstractly deconstruct this situation and see that the value behind these actions are constructed and not absolute or objective (nothing is). However, your brain, the endocrine system, and your subconscious say otherwise.

It seems to me that all conflict is of this nature. While we can agree on the power of abstraction, we have to acknowledge that this is largely seperated from us as we are not "free" beings and have many dictated functions, including those of thought itself! A sticky situation, and one that I havent totally come to grips with (and probably never will).

 

[no country for old wainds]

I'll bump this 'cause it's a good thread.

As you say at the end, abstract pondering and philosophical thought are also dictated, albethey on a conscious level in our minds. The (apparently harsh) reality is that we will never be able to separate ourselves in any way from nature, we are all leaves which make up a larger tree both physically and mentally, our values and in turn our choices are determined by the evolution of our physical universe. Free will is a lie. Acceptance of this is acceptance of nature as God, and to me it has given a desire to live in harmony with nature as a whole (as anything else is self-defeating), to ignore any external value constructs and create my own through logic and love.

Please no "you can't prove that you don't know that" comments, they aren't insightful or useful.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i believe there IS free will, and choices and paths we travel down are shaped by who we are, but we can choose any direction to travel in from any given point along the way. perhaps there is a characteristic choice process each person posesses, but one cannot know future decisions and states before arriving at them.

i believe that this free will and choice is perhaps given by God as a means to test and evaluate each of us. instead of merely placing humans in heaven and hell, or not creating us at all, he chose to make us. he then gave us the chance to prove ourselves worthy of his gift of life. the sum of these choices i think, is decided upon death and ultimately God will then direct our final placements. of course, if you aren't christian, you won't agree with me

i would agree with the initial argument though. every debate and every discussion has at its core, each individuals set of values and what value is to them. it is unavoidable.

 

[Silver Incubus]

Well, I very much don't believe in free will, because to me it seems only like an illusion(but apparently it is needed or it wouldn't be around).

I have come into terms of a One God that is all conciousness and life engery in this world, which is constructed by the collective consciousness of all life. So as an individual, you are but a fragment of the whole consciousness. I thing I have said too much....

 

[speed]

Well, I very much don't believe in free will, because to me it seems only like an illusion(but apparently it is needed or it wouldn't be around).

I have come into terms of a One God that is all conciousness and life engery in this world, which is constructed by the collective consciousness of all life. So as an individual, you are but a fragment of the whole consciousness. I thing I have said too much....

You sound like Spinoza or Plotinus. i disagree of course, but I will admit if you change the omniscient One with the universe, every individual becomes very unimportant.

 

[Silver Incubus]

You sound like Spinoza or Plotinus. i disagree of course, but I will admit if you change the omniscient One with the universe, every individual becomes very unimportant.

Well i do see life as the journey, back to the one, through experience. In a way it is similar to the hindu Atman, but at the same time, I don't like certain apects of hinduism.

 

[xxSammaelxx]

i believe there IS free will, and choices and paths we travel down are shaped by who we are, but we can choose any direction to travel in from any given point along the way.

My question is: But why? What is the ultimate cause to who we are? I see human life as a destructive influence on nature and animals, whose single purpose is to breed and expand to different places (Thus our lust for adventure, for excitement).

 

[Kenneth R.]

that may be the case for current society but it was not our original purpose as i see it. to understand my position, read what i wrote below what you quoted.

 

[Meandor]

Some would argue that it is our "nature" to consume resources and expand uncontrollably. "Purpose" is nothing but a justification for behaviour- and our understanding of such things is limited by our biology - there's no getting around it. You can't think on a higher level than what the mass of water and complex proteins sitting in your skull will let you- be it god (or godess) given or not. Anyhow that's my 2 cents for now...