The official and most atmospheric Children of Joonas thread

[(__Joonas__)]

Even when the guitar is in the hands of a noob these simple rhythms sound so epic, because the songwriting reeks with adrenaline and carries one ambitious idea from start to finish. It's just amazing what kind of groove, feel, atmosphere and musical epicness this album has.

 

[<Arcane>]

That's all based on personal opinion

 

[snowy]

I came here for the bitches and posts about atmospheric stuff and not for this shit.

 

[ZOMG_A_COW]

You'Re the only person I know who cares about the rythm guitar behind solos..^^ I pretty much never listen to them because...well, there's a solo over it. But I also can't remind of any cool rythm guitar behind a solo on any older album. I also don't know your problems with melodic ideas. How can any solo be more melodic than the Ugly solo? And listen to the rythm guitar behind that solo. It's fucking epic. Even NMF solo is meldoic as fuck because there is no annoying pentatonic stuff in it.
I also never said that a song has to be tecnical to be epic. Most of the songs on HB or FTR aren't technical. But for me, the more technical a song is, the more interesting it is. And it makes much more fun to play them on guitar. Whenever I play some Bodom stuff, I only play songs from RRF or Sinergy. But Sinergy is partly too much guitar wanking for me. Even the easiest songs of Sinergy are propably more difficult than the hardest COB songs.

Actually dude you can add me to that list as well. I care about the rhythm guitar behind the solos. I've actually realized through writing my own shit, that the rhythm guitar (as in what kind of riffs/notes it's playing, what kind of rhythm it follows, etc) behind the solo actually kind of sets the tone and the groove for the entire solo. If done right, the solo should stand out and the rhythm should be in the background, but when you pay attention to the rhythm guitar, there should be some legit sounding counterpoint between the two (doesn't NEED to be, but I like those ones haha). The solo rhythms on much of the newer albums (Are You Dead Yet? and Blooddrunk, specifically) have really interesting interplay between the rhythm backing and the solo. The ones on the older albums are all relatively simple, and I guess are very easy to choose notes to "shred" across, because it's kind of like a more open space. Despite that though, the solos (not the rhythm guitar underneath the solos) on the classic albums were really Alexi's best solos, simple rhythms or not.

Anyways, I agree with you, being a guitar player myself, I understand how much more fun guitar can be if the riffs are a bit harder (it's kind of like playing a game at a higher level, you just sort of get a sense of satisfaction from it). You put it perfectly: the riffs and songwriting on the newer albums are literally a thousand times better than the older ones. It's also one of the reasons I don't listen to old COB much anymore, despite all the superior solos residing in Hatebreeder, FTR, and HCDR. Songs were more atmospheric for sure, but I have grown to love new Bodom as well, if not much more than older. I really only listen to HCDR, AYDY, and Blooddrunk nowadays. But there was a period when RRF first came out when I was quite obsessed with it for a couple of months. But upon listening to Are You Dead Yet - RRF, I ended up liking Blooddrunk more, because of little things I started noticing about RRF. It's not a bad album at all, and it's got some neat songs with a couple of neat solos, and some...well, decent ones. Also, kickass guitar tone. Definitely my favourite one of all their albums.

Oh, and this is just me, but I think Joonas actually has a point when he said SKO off RRF was one of the songs on the new album which had interesting riffing underneath the solo. He used the word "catchy", where I would use the word "creative" or "interesting", but I'm not going to quarrel with his use of the word. Another one would be Cry Of The Nihilist. Ugly and NMF use kind of simple chords, if you know what I mean, and there's not much going on underneath the solo, so that's why it's a little easier to make those kinds of solos sound more melodic. Ugly and NMF are great solos by the way, I'm not ripping on them or anything. Just describing what I have noticed. I also sort of got the feeling the RRF solos weren't as good as everything from before, though I didn't really know how to put what I heard into words. Joonas described it as "lacking melodic ideas". I thought about that for a bit, and I found that he was actually right. That tapped solo in Cry Of The Nihilist coming right after those sweeps with the guitar syncing with the keyboard, Alexi uses that pattern all the time. It's kind of like he was just hashing out old licks. The aspect that made the solo interesting was the verse riff playing under it, giving it the dynamic it needed. There are many other examples of Alexi rehashing old licks on RRF, like in Roundtrip and Pussyfoot. I'm not going to go any deeper into this because this post is getting fucking long.

Anyways, yeah just one random guy's view on the music, maybe someone will disagree with me, or someone will find something interesting in what I pointed out, I don't know lol.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I care about the rhythm guitar behind the solos.

To me the solo backgrounds are one of the very best things about this kind of music.



3:09 - 3:26 - Awesome riffing


2:12 - 2:32 - Particularly the keyboard background...


2:16 - 2:53 - Same thing here. One of the best solos ever.


2:33 - 3:40 - MY FUCKING GOD



And now listen to this... 2:40 - 3:00


It's just not on the same level.

Despite that though, the solos (not the rhythm guitar underneath the solos) on the classic albums were really Alexi's best solos, simple rhythms or not.

It was the overall creativity and epicness. Could RRF have so good solo backgrounds when the solos aren't that colourful either.

You put it perfectly: the riffs and songwriting on the newer albums are literally a thousand times better than the older ones. It's also one of the reasons I don't listen to old COB much anymore, despite all the superior solos residing in Hatebreeder, FTR, and HCDR.

But what is better songwriting. Technicality, or atmosphere and enjoyability of the music?

Songs were more atmospheric for sure, but I have grown to love new Bodom as well, if not much more than older.

There's great things about newer Bodom as well of course, for example Punch Me I Bleed is really different to the old but it's full of greatness (not on the album, but on live performance, if you try ignore the vocals and listen to the music and louder keys)

39:20


Something I think deserves a remake. So much epic feel and atmosphere in this song. It contains one of the best guitar solos too. Really there's some of the band's greatest songwriting in the songs LDB, AYDY and PMIB of this album, but it's so sad the keys were mixed down, just couldn't get the vibe on the studio record that you can hear live. More time should've been put on this record in studio and really to get the atmosphere through the keyboards. This song could've been a world-class single. Of course, I'm a sucker for melodic doom metal and this comes pretty close.

Also, kickass guitar tone. Definitely my favourite one of all their albums.

I thought so too at first, but when I heard the album, I realized it's really all about the package.

Joonas described it as "lacking melodic ideas". I thought about that for a bit, and I found that he was actually right.

I think a solo should have some melodic idea to make you feel or think in a special way. Even just pure shredding is good if there's an interesting background.

Alexi uses that pattern all the time. It's kind of like he was just hashing out old licks.

Ugly solo starts off with a melodic idea from the FTR solo. But you can't really even compare them. FTR is as a song a continuous string of godly melodies all tied together fluently from start to finish, one of the greatest songs ever made.

Roope defends the new material saying fans always look at the previous album and say it's better than the new. I think he means to say when they have another album out is when fans start respecting RRF. I think he means the new material sounds grooveless and messy, un-fluent, until you've listened to it for enough time. But I don't think that's all there is to it in RRF, I sincerely think it's less catchy and feels like random notes glued together... sure there's catchy parts too but there's just less magic.

 

[<Arcane>]

To me the solo backgrounds are one of the very best things about this kind of music.



3:09 - 3:26 - Awesome riffing

I kinda,like the pre solos more.

2:16 - 2:53 - Same thing here. One of the best solos ever.

This is some relly cool stuff, indeed.

2:33 - 3:40 - MY FUCKING GOD

ETID has always been my favorite song and will ever be. There's not a single thing in this song which I don't like.

And now listen to this... 2:40 - 3:00


It's just not on the same level.

You can't really compare those songs. It's nothing new that songs on BD, AYDY and RRF are harder and trashier. And this part totally fits with the rest of this song and btw., IMO the bridge before the solo has propably one of the best riffs I've ever heard. There's no other COB song with a cooler riff before a solo.

But what is better songwriting. Technicality, or atmosphere and enjoyability of the music?

Both. For me as a guitarist, I like it more technical because it's a everytime a new challenge to cover it. On the other side I think I would put songs like ETID, which are pretty simple but full of trees and lakes over any technical stuff. Too bad I've never heard any similar song like ETID which is so heavily full of trees.

Ugly solo starts off with a melodic idea from the FTR solo. But you can't really even compare them.

Just because of the whammy/bend thing at the beginning?

 

[ZOMG_A_COW]

To me the solo backgrounds are one of the very best things about this kind of music.



3:09 - 3:26 - Awesome riffing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBppBGOwirQ

2:12 - 2:32 - Particularly the keyboard background...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKknp2RbA18

2:16 - 2:53 - Same thing here. One of the best solos ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVgTSWntH0w

2:33 - 3:40 - MY FUCKING GOD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjZpqgeiGFQ


And now listen to this... 2:40 - 3:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9Fynz2ld0

It's just not on the same level.



It was the overall creativity and epicness. Could RRF have so good solo backgrounds when the solos aren't that colourful either.



But what is better songwriting. Technicality, or atmosphere and enjoyability of the music?



There's great things about newer Bodom as well of course, for example Punch Me I Bleed is really different to the old but it's full of greatness (not on the album, but on live performance, if you try ignore the vocals and listen to the music and louder keys)

39:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdh6IWO8uGg

Something I think deserves a remake. So much epic feel and atmosphere in this song. It contains one of the best guitar solos too. Really there's some of the band's greatest songwriting in the songs LDB, AYDY and PMIB of this album, but it's so sad the keys were mixed down, just couldn't get the vibe on the studio record that you can hear live. More time should've been put on this record in studio and really to get the atmosphere through the keyboards. This song could've been a world-class single. Of course, I'm a sucker for melodic doom metal and this comes pretty close.



I thought so too at first, but when I heard the album, I realized it's really all about the package.



I think a solo should have some melodic idea to make you feel or think in a special way. Even just pure shredding is good if there's an interesting background.



Ugly solo starts off with a melodic idea from the FTR solo. But you can't really even compare them. FTR is as a song a continuous string of godly melodies all tied together fluently from start to finish, one of the greatest songs ever made.

Roope defends the new material saying fans always look at the previous album and say it's better than the new. I think he means to say when they have another album out is when fans start respecting RRF. I think he means the new material sounds grooveless and messy, un-fluent, until you've listened to it for enough time. But I don't think that's all there is to it in RRF, I sincerely think it's less catchy and feels like random notes glued together... sure there's catchy parts too but there's just less magic.

Yeah, you totally got what I meant with the Tie My Rope example. That was what I was talking about, just those odd sounding choice of rhythms behind the lead that makes the solo that much more interesting. The Warheart solo is just epic. The choice of those first four notes to begin the solo was undeniably perfect. That stuff was definitely on a different level than anything on RRF. I'm not really sure what to expect for their next album, but I like them enough to keep following them because they're still one of my favourite bands (and to be completely honest, Bodom usually don't release anything THAT bad, we're just kind of tough on them because we know what they are/were capable of).

RE the better songwriting: That's actually a great question. There's definitely a fine line between technicality and atmosphere/enjoyability that musicians (at least of this genre anyway) should try to achieve. If you go too much in one direction, you'll sound boring as fuck. If you go too much in the other, it's too simple for us to enjoy. In my opinion, they had a perfect mix from Hatebreeder to Hate Crew, but I guess Alexi just really started liking more thrashy and technical riffing. I realize how difficult it is to blend the two being a guitar player writing songs though, because it usually just happens when you've written enough songs and you get bored, and naturally gravitating towards writing more technical riffs, ultimately preferring them more. I'm pretty sure that happened to Alexi. If you think about it though, he's not the only one something like this happened to. For just one example, take a look at Kalmah. Compare their old stuff to their newer stuff (by newer I mean Black Waltz to 12 Gauge era). Almost completely thrashy. You always hear about melodic death metal bands going more towards thrash, but you almost never hear about (melodic?) thrash going to something more atmospheric. Just a little theory.

RE melodic ideas: Yeah, I can list two solos right now that have amazing melodic ideas that make them stand out. I'll pick one from an older song and one from a newer one. From an older song, a really good example of pure shredding in a solo with a very well developed melodic idea would be in Taste of my Scythe.



From 3:24 until the end of the solo, Laiho is pretty much just shredding almost the whole time. But in the few moments he isn't, he is actually developing melodic ideas in the solos that just sound so perfect because of how they happen to coincide almost exactly when the riffs under the solo are progressing to another idea themselves. That is also a good example of the well composed counterpoint I mentioned in my last post.

From a newer song, I want to pick out Done With Everything, Die For Nothing. It's also one of my favourite songs off Blooddrunk, because of the chorus. I actually wish they would play this live.



2:25-2:36 is the solo. I think it is a very well crafted solo. It is a prime example of a solo that really serves the song. It sounds dark as hell, just like the song itself. It spends most of the time developing an actual melodic idea instead of just random shredding. And when there is shredding (near the end of the solo), it is very carefully placed and used sparingly. That is also what I think a good mix of technique and melody is.


To tell you the truth though, I think Laiho actually got technically worse at playing leads as a guitar player. Maybe he stopped practicing as much (I don't blame him though, he is fucking rich and he probably has a lot more going on with his life now, what with his partying and girlfriend and whatnot). Hell for all we know his whole attitude about music probably changed from when he wrote the old stuff. I never admired Alexi for just his technique though, he was always my favourite guitar player even before all of this because I just thought that he had a really unique style of songwriting.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I have this idea for a COB song movie sample...

At the intro of a song use this 43:04 - 43:19, over some atmospheric keyboard, removing the other dialogue, then use 43:44 - 43:48 sample for outro.



Just something I could do, not saying COB would ever again do something like it. This would be ideal for a dark, atmospheric hit song, among the first tracks. I would also like Alexi to perform similar kind of whispers as Violator in this sample, same he does in Warheart (0:40 and 2:53) Silent Night, Bodom Night (0:43) and maybe some other songs in Hatebreeder.

I was a fan of Spawn magazines when I was younger, it's an amazing grotesque and stylish cartoon with lots of creativity and graphic material.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I asked some help from my friend Jesus to make Alexi remember how a lead melody can make a song epic without an overload of complexity, so he's jammin' to some Silent Hill here to show just that...

2:45 and 4:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTn09IrWFSo

It's basically a vocal track of a song by Akira Yamaoka played with guitar. I'm a huge huge fan of the original Silent Hill video games, some of the most genious and touching art made on this planet, and certainly the most atmospheric art ever seen the light of day...

I happen to know Alexi has played SH3 which is the second or third best but SH2 is in a realm of its own when it comes to story, psychology, symbolism, music, atmosphere and crushing emotions that rip up the deepest buried sorrows of the player himself... the Japanese really had vision and knew their stuff, how to affect and touch the human mind... until the American crews took over the franchise and made it bullshit. Kinda like... well...

Music like the SH soundtracks that immediately touch the heart and sink right into the soul is just something else.

 

[children of COB]

some things here never change, 2 years I don't even log in, I come to see if there's any news on the new album and BOOM! Joonas' style on the first page haha.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Well, technically I'm the only thing that hasn't changed in two years. Everything else is dead.

 

[children of COB]

Well COBOT is, but I don't see anything else dead, I even see quite some people I recognize.

 

[BazsiBazsi]

I dunno guys but if you listen to Wintersun you will be amazed, its pretty "atmospheric".



Also if you're looking for some similar epic bands take a look on Scar Symmetry, Kalmah, or Dark Tranquility.
Even Joonas can find some atmosphere in these bands

edit : WHAT THE FUCK I WROTE SCARY LO0L

 

[Marowak]

Scary Symmetry

Man, this band gives me the creeps.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone on this board has listened to these bands at some point or another.

I never quite understood why people try to one up COB fans by busting out "I lisen to Wintersun Jari is better guitar player blahblahblah". They're not anything alike. That comment wasn't towards you btw.

 

[BazsiBazsi]

Well I posted that video here because I found it pretty atmospheric, but you cannot compare Wintersun-CoB in any ways...
And by the way anyone knows here these bands: Parkway drive, Suicide Silence, and The Devil Wears Prada? Just before someone says these bands are complete shit and does not have anything to do with CoB, take a deeper look.

I just love the how the melodies merged together with pure brutality, what you can find in older Bodom albums.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I would love the following songs re-recorded...

Deadnight Warrior (verse melody more distinct, interlude with slower drum beat, keyboard background for verse after the interlude)
Red Light In My Eyes pt. 1 (no low-pitch vocals)
Hatebreeder (middle part needs to be done again to make this a faultless masterpiece)
Towards Dead End (vocals need to be done again... more darkness in the music... this melody is epic and genious, many emotions together)
Mask of Sanity (sounds and vocals need more power and epicness)
Kissing the Shadows (new chorus)
Lil' Bloodred Ridin' Hood (drum intro, new more atmospheric guitar sound, less unnecessary yaow screams, better guitar solo)
Punch Me I Bleed (keyboards more dynamic, riffs improved)
Are You Dead Yet (keyboard background for the chorus, better vocals for chorus)
Living Dead Beat (less annoying intro melody, extra strings during verses, no keyboard during interlude, louder chorus keyboard)

I believe by these means these songs could unveil their true potential and I would listen to them in eargasms non-stop before dying of heartache or dehydration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvsn1KO1IDg

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I still think it would've been a good idea for a Roundtrip to Hell and Back music video, to portray Alexi meditating with a shaman on a night campfire, going into drugs and traveling to a hellish world in a night forest or going down stairs, where he encounters the Reaper of course... But today I think that song is nowhere near good enough for a video. In theory it could work but that song just doesn't have that emotional or evil feel to it apart from the intro and outro... same gay riffing that plagues the whole album. The bad chorus and guitar solos prevent it being a good song, but I love the first 50 seconds especially.

I can even see the sparks flying up to the night sky against Alexi's face with eyes shut, from 0:32.
The reason I feel strongly about this idea is also because the song has this strange elevating good feeling to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_em6JvRat8

 

[iPot]

The bad chorus and guitar solos prevent it being a good song, but I love the first 50 seconds especially.

This. Chorus and solo portion ruins the song totally. It had potential to be one of the bands post-FTR era highlights, but instead they raped it with shitty riffs and even shittier solos.

 

[BazsiBazsi]

Yea i would love to see an actually good music video from Bodom. WIWI was ok but the song was... oh man it was bad. The roundtrip clip was messed up with the flashing snakes and insects(WTF, WHY?!). Blooddrunk was insteresting but still weird, smile pretty was still weird(i dunno why the trying to tell something story...), so the Hellhounds was the best clip on the blooddrunk album. So far the trashed lost and strungout my favorite clip from them

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I made some photoshopping for this a few years ago... should've lowered the color value from the close water too.

I'm not saying this is better than the original. This is too clear for colours so it's less mysterious.