This is unbelieveable!!!

The difference is, mine can be proven by real life experiences (find me a community of illegal immigrant families who lives as well off as an upper middle class white families and maybe I'll take you seriously) where Thor's information is obviously stupid, inaccurate, irrelevant propaganda.

My point is that you're both using the same faulty reasoning. Anecdotal evidence doesn't fly, brah. you can say it's "proven by reality" and all, but the crux of both of your arguments is essentially "The group I wish to vilify lives better than the group I would prefer to sympathize with" Like the presumtion that the white guy's wife is going to be a 50,000/year paralegal, that they're sending their kids to private school, etc. which is purely an assumption. I could counter your "real life" assumptions with the "real life" reality of my own personal growing up but it does nothing, since...you know..the nature of experience is highly subjective, and all. What works for one group isn't necessarily going to work for the next. We'd all do well to keep that in mind. Oh, and the number of middle-to-upper class white families is much, much smaller than the number of lower-middle-to-lower class white families; The bourgeoisie class is still relatively small even among the devils own white people! And not all hispanic communities have the same standards of living! I know! It's mind blowing!

Oh, and don't be so presumptuous. I don't agree with the guys you're arguing with, either, you silly, silly man.
 
I laugh at your pathetic attempts at a left/right paradigm argument. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Only what you are lead to believe. "Oh liberals suck!" "Nuh uh! Conservatives suck!" Pathetic, and it is exactly why we will never advance as a society or a country any further than the establishment has us now. Divide and conquer.
Hmm, I think that's what I was trying to say there at the end, but you were more succinct.
 
I laugh at your pathetic attempts at a left/right paradigm argument. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Only what you are lead to believe. "Oh liberals suck!" "Nuh uh! Conservatives suck!" Pathetic, and it is exactly why we will never advance as a society or a country any further than the establishment has us now. Divide and conquer.

This.

We have a broken two-party system, and we're forced to "choose" between the lesser of two evils. We choose because of the rhetoric that one or the other spouts, but as soon as that shiny new face you elected gets to Washington, they get ground up in the cynical political machinery.

This is my take on immigration. And the liberals will hate it because it's not "caring" enough. The Republicans will hate it because it involves "amnesty" and "not cracking down on illegals". What I'm going to say will piss off everyone that had to suffer through the ineptitude of our immigration process - which, yes, I agree is a boondoggle (I have many clients that are immigrants and fight tooth and nail to get their green card so I feel I have a unique perspective on this). It's just not fair to them because they went through that, and now people don't? Well.....the consolation prize is that they don't have to write the check I propose below.

We're all immigrants, it's just a question of degree. Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, or great-great-great-grandfather that came into this country on a boat? My point is that at some time in the past our ancestors came from somewhere else (unless you are descended from Native Americans, in which case....that's life in the big city, see all the other posts about conquest for that one, sorry because you got a pretty raw deal). We're here, this is our country, we pay taxes, we have the right to live here, because we set up laws and boundaries to protect the nation we built. This is why we have the right to choose who comes in and who does not. We are a nation of law. Cheiron, it's ours - that's why we have the right to live here. We built it. I don't have the right to bust into your house in the dead of night and sleep on your couch and drink your beer and play your Xbox do I?

In addition, our country is spending trillions of dollars that we don't have in an attempt to get us out of this recession. Printing money we don't have to buy our way out of the recession. I don't want to argue what's being spent, or what it's being spent on, that's not what I'm getting at here. What I AM getting at is that our country needs money, and it can only get it by raising taxes (which illegals don't pay), or by cutting social services/entitlements and other spending (which will get everyone all in a lather because no one wants their pet pork project cut). And let's face it.....for the pols, it's all about the money. Because money = power.

So, you can solve this whole issue by legitimizing the people that are here illegally. Call a spade a spade! They're here....they're not leaving....you can't find them all or fight it effectively...and it's a political and populist nuclear bomb.

In my opinion, the government should create an amnesty program. Now, I don't mean "happy flowers, it's ok, you're in for free". Not at all. You're here illegally.....there are consequences.

We all have paid to be here since we were born in the form of taxes, and by following the laws of the land. So you came across a desert in the night and almost died of dehydration? Worked under a false identity that you stole or something? Worried about getting deported? Great, that's dedication. Doesn't give you a free pass though, it just means you wanted it, the hardships are, again, life in the big city. So you want to be legal after crawling over the border in the night?

Fine. You pay. Show up at the immigration office, fill out an application for a SS card, fingerprints, whatever is appropriate, pass a criminal background check, and write a check.

Set a dollar amount that makes some economic sense - $5000 - $10,000 - whatever, I don't know what it would be - but allow people to legally BUY their citizenship. They pay into the system, they get the benefits of citizenship (or even a green card, and then they apply for citizenship through the normal process, whatever). They then pay taxes....and social security....and so forth. They become productive members of American society and do not have to worry about jackboots in the night. Maybe they can finance their payment by payroll withholdings or something. Don't ask me all the mechanics....

If you want to come here from your third-world toilet, that's great. We welcome you if you play by our rules. Currently our rules are that you follow a certain immigration procedure, and we welcome you with open arms. If you do not, that means you do not respect the rule of law in our land....and if you don't respect the laws that keep our nation intact, then why the hell would we want you here? And why would YOU want to be here, if you don't respect what makes our country what it is? Really....if you go into someone's house and steal their property, how do you claim you respect that person or their property?

I think this levels the playing field significantly. Sure, people will gripe about "how does some poor soul come up with $5000" or the like. or "what about those people less fortunate than us" or whatever. To this I say.....tough shit. Life is filled with obstacles, and I daresay that someone resourceful enough to survive a late night border "incursion" in the desert while dodging armed people can find a way to come up with some money. Why not make people have some skin in the game?

By all estimates, there are somewhere between 12-20 million illegal immigrants in our country. Let's use 12 to be conservative.

12,000,000 x $2500 citizenship fee = $30 billion in revenue.
12,000,000 x $5000 citizenship fee = $60 billion in revenue.

Now go off of 20 million:

20,000,000 x $2500 = $50 billion
20,000,000 x $5000 = $100 billion

Then think about the money you save in enforcement. Who knows what that is. Then think about the increased tax revenues. If you have 20,000,000 people making $20,000 per year at a 10% nominal tax rate.....that's $40 billion per year in tax revenue. And so on.....really, think about the numbers. When you think about how it flows through the economy, you've got states getting income tax, you have the federal government getting income tax, you have Social Security getting funded at a higher level via payroll taxes, you have more people paying into the healthcare system which theoretically would lower premiums on insurance by creating a deeper pool of insured bodies to spread the actuarial risk around on. The list goes on.

Some will say it cheapens citizenship. I can't say I disagree. But does it cheapen it any more than all of these people camping out in our country and mooching off of everyone that pays taxes?

And then.....maybe it will help pay for the free health care we give out to illegals, or the insane budget deficit. Maybe it would defuse the powderkeg of anger over the subject, after all....money talks.

The funny thing, is that this will piss off a LOT of people. Maybe that's a good sign, if it pisses off all people equally, maybe it's the nasty-tasting medicine we need to take to get rid of the infection.

Oh....I don't know who said it, but whoever stated that we need a Guest Worker plan? It's called a work visa. We give them to people with skills we need in our economy. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1275.html
 
This.

We have a broken two-party system, and we're forced to "choose" between the lesser of two evils. We choose because of the rhetoric that one or the other spouts, but as soon as that shiny new face you elected gets to Washington, they get ground up in the cynical political machinery.

This is my take on immigration. And the liberals will hate it because it's not "caring" enough. The Republicans will hate it because it involves "amnesty" and "not cracking down on illegals". What I'm going to say will piss off everyone that had to suffer through the ineptitude of our immigration process - which, yes, I agree is a boondoggle (I have many clients that are immigrants and fight tooth and nail to get their green card so I feel I have a unique perspective on this). It's just not fair to them because they went through that, and now people don't? Well.....the consolation prize is that they don't have to write the check I propose below.

We're all immigrants, it's just a question of degree. Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, or great-great-great-grandfather that came into this country on a boat? My point is that at some time in the past our ancestors came from somewhere else (unless you are descended from Native Americans, in which case....that's life in the big city, see all the other posts about conquest for that one, sorry because you got a pretty raw deal). We're here, this is our country, we pay taxes, we have the right to live here, because we set up laws and boundaries to protect the nation we built. This is why we have the right to choose who comes in and who does not. We are a nation of law. Cheiron, it's ours - that's why we have the right to live here. We built it. I don't have the right to bust into your house in the dead of night and sleep on your couch and drink your beer and play your Xbox do I?

In addition, our country is spending trillions of dollars that we don't have in an attempt to get us out of this recession. Printing money we don't have to buy our way out of the recession. I don't want to argue what's being spent, or what it's being spent on, that's not what I'm getting at here. What I AM getting at is that our country needs money, and it can only get it by raising taxes (which illegals don't pay), or by cutting social services/entitlements and other spending (which will get everyone all in a lather because no one wants their pet pork project cut). And let's face it.....for the pols, it's all about the money. Because money = power.

So, you can solve this whole issue by legitimizing the people that are here illegally. Call a spade a spade! They're here....they're not leaving....you can't find them all or fight it effectively...and it's a political and populist nuclear bomb.

In my opinion, the government should create an amnesty program. Now, I don't mean "happy flowers, it's ok, you're in for free". Not at all. You're here illegally.....there are consequences.

We all have paid to be here since we were born in the form of taxes, and by following the laws of the land. So you came across a desert in the night and almost died of dehydration? Worked under a false identity that you stole or something? Worried about getting deported? Great, that's dedication. Doesn't give you a free pass though, it just means you wanted it, the hardships are, again, life in the big city. So you want to be legal after crawling over the border in the night?

Fine. You pay. Show up at the immigration office, fill out an application for a SS card, fingerprints, whatever is appropriate, pass a criminal background check, and write a check.

Set a dollar amount that makes some economic sense - $5000 - $10,000 - whatever, I don't know what it would be - but allow people to legally BUY their citizenship. They pay into the system, they get the benefits of citizenship (or even a green card, and then they apply for citizenship through the normal process, whatever). They then pay taxes....and social security....and so forth. They become productive members of American society and do not have to worry about jackboots in the night. Maybe they can finance their payment by payroll withholdings or something. Don't ask me all the mechanics....

If you want to come here from your third-world toilet, that's great. We welcome you if you play by our rules. Currently our rules are that you follow a certain immigration procedure, and we welcome you with open arms. If you do not, that means you do not respect the rule of law in our land....and if you don't respect the laws that keep our nation intact, then why the hell would we want you here? And why would YOU want to be here, if you don't respect what makes our country what it is? Really....if you go into someone's house and steal their property, how do you claim you respect that person or their property?

I think this levels the playing field significantly. Sure, people will gripe about "how does some poor soul come up with $5000" or the like. or "what about those people less fortunate than us" or whatever. To this I say.....tough shit. Life is filled with obstacles, and I daresay that someone resourceful enough to survive a late night border "incursion" in the desert while dodging armed people can find a way to come up with some money. Why not make people have some skin in the game?

By all estimates, there are somewhere between 12-20 million illegal immigrants in our country. Let's use 12 to be conservative.

12,000,000 x $2500 citizenship fee = $30 billion in revenue.
12,000,000 x $5000 citizenship fee = $60 billion in revenue.

Now go off of 20 million:

20,000,000 x $2500 = $50 billion
20,000,000 x $5000 = $100 billion

Then think about the money you save in enforcement. Who knows what that is. Then think about the increased tax revenues. If you have 20,000,000 people making $20,000 per year at a 10% nominal tax rate.....that's $40 billion per year in tax revenue. And so on.....really, think about the numbers. When you think about how it flows through the economy, you've got states getting income tax, you have the federal government getting income tax, you have Social Security getting funded at a higher level via payroll taxes, you have more people paying into the healthcare system which theoretically would lower premiums on insurance by creating a deeper pool of insured bodies to spread the actuarial risk around on. The list goes on.

Some will say it cheapens citizenship. I can't say I disagree. But does it cheapen it any more than all of these people camping out in our country and mooching off of everyone that pays taxes?

And then.....maybe it will help pay for the free health care we give out to illegals, or the insane budget deficit. Maybe it would defuse the powderkeg of anger over the subject, after all....money talks.

The funny thing, is that this will piss off a LOT of people. Maybe that's a good sign, if it pisses off all people equally, maybe it's the nasty-tasting medicine we need to take to get rid of the infection.

Oh....I don't know who said it, but whoever stated that we need a Guest Worker plan? It's called a work visa. We give them to people with skills we need in our economy. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1275.html

kaneklapqo6.gif
 
"Citizens Zero........." :heh:


Well put, Jon, and I basically agree. At some point, there will HAVE to be some sort of 'legitimization' or decriminalization process: there are too many illegals here, far more than could ever be deported back to their origins.

A few things I'd add or change:

1. Close the fucking border first. We just blew $787 billion on a wasted 'stimulus' plan. Cancel any remaining expenditures from that and use the funds to close the US/Mexican border. That money would have bought a reallllly nice fence.

2. Immediately rescind the "anchor baby" portion of the immigration code.

3. Set a relatively low price for illegals to 'decriminalize' themselves here -- say, $5,000. That would be the "fine" for their crime of entering illegally. Once paid, they can obtain an ITIN and a legal permit to work in this country, legally. But they are not citizens and do not have voting rights...at least not yet.

4. Set a relatively high price -- say, $20,000, or more -- for illegals with the wherewithall to pay it. This would include the "fine" for their crime of entering illegally, and an extra amount to "naturalize" them as full-voting citizens.

5. For illegals who paid the $5,000 fine, for every year thereafter that they remain free of any felony crimes, lop, say, $1,000 off the "naturalization" fee. After a time, they'd be able to naturalize themselves by maintaining a lawful record.


Ahh, it ain't perfect, as you said, Jon, but if it pisses everyone off equally, it might be the best, if a little lonely, road. :)
 
This.

We have a broken two-party system, and we're forced to "choose" between the lesser of two evils. We choose because of the rhetoric that one or the other spouts, but as soon as that shiny new face you elected gets to Washington, they get ground up in the cynical political machinery.

This is my take on immigration. And the liberals will hate it because it's not "caring" enough. The Republicans will hate it because it involves "amnesty" and "not cracking down on illegals". What I'm going to say will piss off everyone that had to suffer through the ineptitude of our immigration process - which, yes, I agree is a boondoggle (I have many clients that are immigrants and fight tooth and nail to get their green card so I feel I have a unique perspective on this). It's just not fair to them because they went through that, and now people don't? Well.....the consolation prize is that they don't have to write the check I propose below.

We're all immigrants, it's just a question of degree. Was it your grandfather, or great-grandfather, or great-great-great-grandfather that came into this country on a boat? My point is that at some time in the past our ancestors came from somewhere else (unless you are descended from Native Americans, in which case....that's life in the big city, see all the other posts about conquest for that one, sorry because you got a pretty raw deal). We're here, this is our country, we pay taxes, we have the right to live here, because we set up laws and boundaries to protect the nation we built. This is why we have the right to choose who comes in and who does not. We are a nation of law. Cheiron, it's ours - that's why we have the right to live here. We built it. I don't have the right to bust into your house in the dead of night and sleep on your couch and drink your beer and play your Xbox do I?

In addition, our country is spending trillions of dollars that we don't have in an attempt to get us out of this recession. Printing money we don't have to buy our way out of the recession. I don't want to argue what's being spent, or what it's being spent on, that's not what I'm getting at here. What I AM getting at is that our country needs money, and it can only get it by raising taxes (which illegals don't pay), or by cutting social services/entitlements and other spending (which will get everyone all in a lather because no one wants their pet pork project cut). And let's face it.....for the pols, it's all about the money. Because money = power.

So, you can solve this whole issue by legitimizing the people that are here illegally. Call a spade a spade! They're here....they're not leaving....you can't find them all or fight it effectively...and it's a political and populist nuclear bomb.

In my opinion, the government should create an amnesty program. Now, I don't mean "happy flowers, it's ok, you're in for free". Not at all. You're here illegally.....there are consequences.

We all have paid to be here since we were born in the form of taxes, and by following the laws of the land. So you came across a desert in the night and almost died of dehydration? Worked under a false identity that you stole or something? Worried about getting deported? Great, that's dedication. Doesn't give you a free pass though, it just means you wanted it, the hardships are, again, life in the big city. So you want to be legal after crawling over the border in the night?

Fine. You pay. Show up at the immigration office, fill out an application for a SS card, fingerprints, whatever is appropriate, pass a criminal background check, and write a check.

Set a dollar amount that makes some economic sense - $5000 - $10,000 - whatever, I don't know what it would be - but allow people to legally BUY their citizenship. They pay into the system, they get the benefits of citizenship (or even a green card, and then they apply for citizenship through the normal process, whatever). They then pay taxes....and social security....and so forth. They become productive members of American society and do not have to worry about jackboots in the night. Maybe they can finance their payment by payroll withholdings or something. Don't ask me all the mechanics....

If you want to come here from your third-world toilet, that's great. We welcome you if you play by our rules. Currently our rules are that you follow a certain immigration procedure, and we welcome you with open arms. If you do not, that means you do not respect the rule of law in our land....and if you don't respect the laws that keep our nation intact, then why the hell would we want you here? And why would YOU want to be here, if you don't respect what makes our country what it is? Really....if you go into someone's house and steal their property, how do you claim you respect that person or their property?

I think this levels the playing field significantly. Sure, people will gripe about "how does some poor soul come up with $5000" or the like. or "what about those people less fortunate than us" or whatever. To this I say.....tough shit. Life is filled with obstacles, and I daresay that someone resourceful enough to survive a late night border "incursion" in the desert while dodging armed people can find a way to come up with some money. Why not make people have some skin in the game?

By all estimates, there are somewhere between 12-20 million illegal immigrants in our country. Let's use 12 to be conservative.

12,000,000 x $2500 citizenship fee = $30 billion in revenue.
12,000,000 x $5000 citizenship fee = $60 billion in revenue.

Now go off of 20 million:

20,000,000 x $2500 = $50 billion
20,000,000 x $5000 = $100 billion

Then think about the money you save in enforcement. Who knows what that is. Then think about the increased tax revenues. If you have 20,000,000 people making $20,000 per year at a 10% nominal tax rate.....that's $40 billion per year in tax revenue. And so on.....really, think about the numbers. When you think about how it flows through the economy, you've got states getting income tax, you have the federal government getting income tax, you have Social Security getting funded at a higher level via payroll taxes, you have more people paying into the healthcare system which theoretically would lower premiums on insurance by creating a deeper pool of insured bodies to spread the actuarial risk around on. The list goes on.

Some will say it cheapens citizenship. I can't say I disagree. But does it cheapen it any more than all of these people camping out in our country and mooching off of everyone that pays taxes?

And then.....maybe it will help pay for the free health care we give out to illegals, or the insane budget deficit. Maybe it would defuse the powderkeg of anger over the subject, after all....money talks.

The funny thing, is that this will piss off a LOT of people. Maybe that's a good sign, if it pisses off all people equally, maybe it's the nasty-tasting medicine we need to take to get rid of the infection.

Oh....I don't know who said it, but whoever stated that we need a Guest Worker plan? It's called a work visa. We give them to people with skills we need in our economy. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1275.html

Very said and well thought out. Even if it isn't perfect, at least you're thinking "outside the box". God knows we need more of that in Washington.
 
@Paul: lolz at the HW song references, haha. Sadly, C0 will not be on the album in that old format, we re-wrote it. It's better though......

Anyway, I agree with ya. Closing the border is very important to making anything work, but like we'll see that happen ever......the stimulus plan was a total joke. TARP too, and I work in finance as some of you may know. Here's an example......my Suntrust rep told me last year after they got a about 2.5B in TARP money that they were using the funds to increase their Jumbo mortgage lending, because that money had totally dried up. So I get excited, right? I have lots of wealthy borrowers that needed loans. So I look at the guideline "enhancements" that were the result of the TARP infusion. EVERY SINGLE LINE ITEM on the guidelines was significantly tightened. EVERY ONE.

The pols need to each grow a sack and be willing to stand up for the things that are unpopular or politically incorrect, but solve the complex problems we face. The fact is, truth is rarely palatable to people acting in violation of it.
 
5. For illegals who paid the $5,000 fine, for every year thereafter that they remain free of any felony crimes, lop, say, $1,000 off the "naturalization" fee. After a time, they'd be able to naturalize themselves by maintaining a lawful record.

Good thoughts from both you guys. But I would include not just felony crimes, but also the DWI's, serious driving violations and domestic violence, as well as burglary and theft charges (they're not all indictable.) As someone who writes up crime every week, I have seen a HUGE increase in crimes like these committed by illegal aliens. It's practically taken over top slots in our "crime industry" just under the drug dealers and gangs.

Also, I think they MUST complete the required courses usually necessary for naturalization. I would like to see these people get a break and a chance at a better life, but no free ride dammit. Irks me to no end that many just want to become assimilated without really becoming Americans. A little basic English would be nice as well.

Edit: On a side note, does anyone else find it irritating how GM had these commercials bragging how they paid back their bail out loan? With TARP money.
 
And it was really only the parts of the money tehy have to pay back that could be classified as a "loan". they still owe something like 70-80% of that, if I understand correctly.
 
I see it plainly this way. If you don't belong in this country legally, get the fuck out. Also, if you are an illegal alien, you have no rights under the U.S. constitution. Flame me if you must. I really don't give a shit.
 
I see it plainly this way. If you don't belong in this country legally, get the fuck out. Also, if you are an illegal alien, you have no rights under the U.S. constitution. Flame me if you must. I really don't give a shit.

:lol::lol::lol:

Pathetic attitude. Then again, it's just my opinion and who the fuck am I, right?
 
I see it plainly this way. If you don't belong in this country legally, get the fuck out. Also, if you are an illegal alien, you have no rights under the U.S. constitution. Flame me if you must. I really don't give a shit.

It should really be that simple.

Just this last week the company I work for had an illegal quit because the SS# he was using got hit by the court system for unpaid child support and started garnishing his check. Needless to say it wasn't his child support he was getting garnished for.:rolleyes:
 
Good thoughts from both you guys. But I would include not just felony crimes, but also the DWI's, serious driving violations and domestic violence, as well as burglary and theft charges (they're not all indictable.) As someone who writes up crime every week, I have seen a HUGE increase in crimes like these committed by illegal aliens. It's practically taken over top slots in our "crime industry" just under the drug dealers and gangs.

Sorry, I meant to include those, too, but used "felonies" as a shortcut. I defer to you as the criminal reporter. Err, the reporter who writes up crimes. :)

Also, I think they MUST complete the required courses usually necessary for naturalization. I would like to see these people get a break and a chance at a better life, but no free ride dammit. Irks me to no end that many just want to become assimilated without really becoming Americans. A little basic English would be nice as well.

Yeah, I pretty much figured this part went without saying.

Edit: On a side note, does anyone else find it irritating how GM had these commercials bragging how they paid back their bail out loan? With TARP money.

I think it's funny how I have a major road-project near my house with big signs saying "Putting America To Work: American Recovery and Reinvestment Act" -- and as far as I can tell, nothing much has been accomplished in the last two months. But I'm glad that a dozen construction workers are collecting a taxpayer-funded paycheck for nothin'. :rolleyes:
 
Why is it pathetic that I should allow anyone ILLEGALLY in this country to be welcomed with open arms?

'Cause not all of them are criminals...a lot of them are just trying to live a better life, a lot of them *even pay their taxes*. You're no better than anyone just because you were born in America.

Plus, I think it's pathetic because you're forgetting that if everyone "gets the fuck out" like you're saying, you wouldn't be able to live your comfortable life with a lot of these people taking on tasks that you would never accept to, just because you're not one of them.