This is unbelieveable!!!

[Diamond45]

a lot of them *even pay their taxes*

How can you pay income taxes when you don't even exist in the system? Sales taxes I can see, but income taxes??

Of course if the US goes with a VAT, then everyone pays regardless of who you are.

 

[AngraRULES]

How can you pay income taxes when you don't even exist in the system? Sales taxes I can see, but income taxes??

Of course if the US goes with a VAT, then everyone pays regardless of who you are.

I think there's a *lot* some of you seem to not know about how things really work.

You know, not all of these people are criminals. I think a lot of them are here trying to earn a decent living and live the American Dream. The fact that some came ilegally is wrong, but a lot of these people do it because it's the "last resort." I think if you're NOT a criminal, and are just trying to do things properly, you deserve a chance. Generalizing everything will NEVER get us anywhere.

 

[sector001]

I think if you're NOT a criminal, and are just trying to do things properly, you deserve a chance.

How does coming here illegally constitute "trying to do things properly"?

 

[Metalmilitia2000]

How does coming here illegally constitute "trying to do things properly"?

This.

 

[AngraRULES]

Have you considered the possibility that some of these people *MAY* have tried to come in properly, but your 100% random system of choosing who is allowed in the country gave them the red light for no apparent reason?

But yet, the country gives a greencard *AND* allows the NY Times Square car-bomber to become a US Citizen.

You gonna say that makes sense?

 

[sector001]

So having an open borders policy where anyone that wants to come in can come in as long as they don't have criminal intentions (which is obviously an easy thing to do) DOES make sense?

 

[AngraRULES]

So having an open borders policy where anyone that wants to come in can come in as long as they don't have criminal intentions (which is obviously an easy thing to do) DOES make sense?

No dude, absolutely not. I just disagree with the whole kick everyone out. I think there has to be safer and tougher border control and create a path to citizenship for the ones who are already here. Make them learn the language, pay a fine to make up for the "crime" of being here ilegally, tax them and then make them get in line to become citizens.

I also think there has to be improvements on the visa issuing system. The whole "You Have Been Randomly Selected To NOT Have The Right To Enter Our Country" thing DOES NOT WORK!!

That to me makes sense.

 

[sector001]

I don't have a problem with hard working illegal immigrants who do not have any type of criminal history in their past becoming legal immigrants, but I do have a problem with a system that makes it relatively easy for them to stay here when so many others have tried and are still trying to come here legally. If there's a way it can be done without mass deportation or a "slap on the wrist" (which is what staying here and simply paying a fine and learning the language amounts to) than I'm willing to listen.

 

[AngraRULES]

I don't have a problem with hard working illegal immigrants who do not have any type of criminal history in their past becoming legal immigrants, but I do have a problem with a system that makes it relatively easy for them to stay here when so many others have tried and are still trying to come here legally. If there's a way it can be done without mass deportation or a "slap on the wrist" (which is what staying here and simply paying a fine and learning the language amounts to) than I'm willing to listen.

It seems that we both agree that the system is broken, especially when it comes to people who are trying to come in legally.

I am curious though, what would you suggest that doesn't include mass deportation or the slap on the wrist?

 

[sector001]

I am curious though, what would you suggest that doesn't include mass deportation or the slap on the wrist?

Believe me, if I had a firm suggestion that falls somewhere between those two scenarios, I'd offer it up. Both do seem like extreme solutions on either side. In terms of brainstorming the issue, I'd certainly be in favor of deporting any illegal alien that has a criminal record. On the flip side, I think some combination of amnesty/punishment could conceivably work. Perhaps a fine plus some type of "salary cap" for a defined period of time until the fines are paid and the "back of the line" waiting period is over. That would represent a period of hardship, yet allow those people to stay with their families and retain their homes, etc. Once the process is finally over, welcome to the United States and best of luck to you in achieving your dreams.

 

[sector001]

Another point I'd like to make about this debate (and politics in general) is that I can't stand all the name calling and vitriol on both sides. How did things de-evolve to such a degree that if we (in general) don't share the same point of view, it somehow makes us enemies? It seems there's so little civility anymore ("you're a Socialist", "you're a racist", "you're an idiot", "you're an uneducated redneck"). Whatever ever happened to simple dialogue? It's so frustrating to see "hit and run" type posts that revel in name calling and demeaning others (which is what set me off earlier in this thread). We're all trying to think of ways to solve problems through our own unique view of the world. Just because someone has a different world view, why do they also have to be an enemy? There are so many more common bonds than politics that unite us. We should all celebrate those bonds.

It's just the way I feel.

 

[AMBR]

Another point I'd like to make about this debate (and politics in general) is that I can't stand all the name calling and vitriol on both sides. How did things de-evolve to such a degree that if we (in general) don't share the same point of view, it somehow makes us enemies? It seems there's so little civility anymore ("you're a Socialist", "you're a racist", "you're an idiot", "you're an uneducated redneck"). Whatever ever happened to simple dialogue?

This has occurred because of the relative anonymity of the internet. The ability to just fire off a nasty comment without looking someone in the face has eroded our civility - imo.

 

[nailz]

How can you pay income taxes when you don't even exist in the system? Sales taxes I can see, but income taxes??

Of course if the US goes with a VAT, then everyone pays regardless of who you are.

I have a friend in Washington who is illegal and pays income tax through a government issued IDS or something that he acquired. He also has not committed ID theft to get this done. It's possible to do, it's just that since legal citizens don't need to jump through literal hoops to do things they should be doing, we don't know how it's possible, so we assume it doesn't happen. After all, would WE pay taxes if we could get away with not doing it? Probably not, and so we assume that because illegals don't "have" to, they just don't.

Untruth.

 

[nailz]

How did things de-evolve to such a degree that if we (in general) don't share the same point of view, it somehow makes us enemies?

 

[AngraRULES]

I have a friend in Washington who is illegal and pays income tax through a government issued IDS or something that he acquired. He also has not committed ID theft to get this done. It's possible to do, it's just that since legal citizens don't need to jump through literal hoops to do things they should be doing, we don't know how it's possible, so we assume it doesn't happen. After all, would WE pay taxes if we could get away with not doing it? Probably not, and so we assume that because illegals don't "have" to, they just don't.

Untruth.

This.

 

[compurocker]

I have a friend in Washington who is illegal and pays income tax through a government issued IDS or something that he acquired. He also has not committed ID theft to get this done. It's possible to do, it's just that since legal citizens don't need to jump through literal hoops to do things they should be doing, we don't know how it's possible, so we assume it doesn't happen. After all, would WE pay taxes if we could get away with not doing it? Probably not, and so we assume that because illegals don't "have" to, they just don't.

Untruth.

For the same reason we shouldn't generalize that all illegals are criminals (beyond the fact that they are illegal in the first place), we can't really base sweeping policy on anecdotal evidence from one or two families that are trying to do the right thing. You said it yourself, how likely is it that legal citizens would do the honest thing and pay their taxes if they could get away without doing it? That makes it even less likely that even a small fraction of the non-criminal illegals are jumping through the requisite hoops to pay income taxes, especially considering they didn't (or tried but couldn't) jump through the hoops to become citizens.

It's obvious that the matter is very complicated and as such will require a complicated (and likely very expensive) solution. It's easy enough (hah, if only) to identify the criminals and deport them. But the vast majority that are not criminals need to be handled delicately. Those like the individual you mentioned shouldn't be lumped in with those that haven't made any effort to do the right thing, in a perfect world anyway. I can't even begin to imagine how to separate them into distinct categories with distinct rights/penalties/paths to citizenship/etc.

But it has to be done. Kicking them all out or letting them all stay (without penalty and with no path to citizenship) are both non-options, the latter of which we've been doing for far too long. I won't reiterate the countless reasons why, but it should be obvious that it is bad for both the legal and illegal citizens in the long run even though it may have been beneficial for each in the short term.

And I think most of us can agree that we're not angry at the immigrants themselves. We're angry at our government for letting it come to this. This country was founded by and for immigrants, and it should be one of the most accepting of immigrants in the world. Should be, but it's not. Somehow our government has made it both too hard to immigrate here legally and too easy to immigrate here illegally. The former creates the perception that America as a country is anti-immigration, and the latter (through the vitriol it causes) creates the perception that Americans as a people are anti-immigration. That is a real shame and needs to change.

 

[sector001]

For the same reason we shouldn't generalize that all illegals are criminals (beyond the fact that they are illegal in the first place), we can't really base sweeping policy on anecdotal evidence from one or two families that are trying to do the right thing. You said it yourself, how likely is it that legal citizens would do the honest thing and pay their taxes if they could get away without doing it? That makes it even less likely that even a small fraction of the non-criminal illegals are jumping through the requisite hoops to pay income taxes, especially considering they didn't (or tried but couldn't) jump through the hoops to become citizens.

It's obvious that the matter is very complicated and as such will require a complicated (and likely very expensive) solution. It's easy enough (hah, if only) to identify the criminals and deport them. But the vast majority that are not criminals need to be handled delicately. Those like the individual you mentioned shouldn't be lumped in with those that haven't made any effort to do the right thing, in a perfect world anyway. I can't even begin to imagine how to separate them into distinct categories with distinct rights/penalties/paths to citizenship/etc.

But it has to be done. Kicking them all out or letting them all stay (without penalty and with no path to citizenship) are both non-options, the latter of which we've been doing for far too long. I won't reiterate the countless reasons why, but it should be obvious that it is bad for both the legal and illegal citizens in the long run even though it may have been beneficial for each in the short term.

And I think most of us can agree that we're not angry at the immigrants themselves. We're angry at our government for letting it come to this. This country was founded by and for immigrants, and it should be one of the most accepting of immigrants in the world. Should be, but it's not. Somehow our government has made it both too hard to immigrate here legally and too easy to immigrate here illegally. The former creates the perception that America as a country is anti-immigration, and the latter (through the vitriol it causes) creates the perception that Americans as a people are anti-immigration. That is a real shame and needs to change.

That.

 

[Cheiron]

Closed borders are so a bunch of idiots can be lazy. If you open the borders, you might actually have to earn a living, instead of be given it for little work. Open borders increases competition. The people who want to work hard will naturally gravitate, so long as you don't have the social welfare programs to attract those who don't want to work hard. It also decreases the current number of people who add very little to society, but take a lot.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

'Cause not all of them are criminals...a lot of them are just trying to live a better life, a lot of them *even pay their taxes*. You're no better than anyone just because you were born in America.

Plus, I think it's pathetic because you're forgetting that if everyone "gets the fuck out" like you're saying, you wouldn't be able to live your comfortable life with a lot of these people taking on tasks that you would never accept to, just because you're not one of them.

Seriously, Milton. If you trespass anywhere you don't belong, then that makes you a criminal. Trespassing is a crime. Also, they can't pay taxes without a social security number and being in the "system". What tasks do you refer? I already have a job because I was born in America with a social security number and I belong here. I have NO problem with those immigrants who become citizens here legally. But, if they are not, then they don't belong in this country. Illegals have no constitutional right to be here. Get the fuck out.

 

[AngraRULES]

Also, they can't pay taxes without a social security number and being in the "system".

Yes, they can dude. A lot of them just choose NOT TO, and I agree that the ones who choose NOT TO should NOT be here.

Get the fuck out.

Seriously man, this will never work. And I'm not just saying this because I'm trying to argue with you. It would just *not* be feasible. You need to be rational and realistic about it.