Thought on PoS Scarsick

He addresses this in a couple of interviews. Here is one for example:

MORROW interview with Daniel Gildenlow (the question is about halfway through)

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/gildenlow/video/x11gvw_pain-of-salvation-daniel-scarsick-p

I transcribed a couple of lines from it

"It is a criticism against not the american people but its more [taking sides] with the american people against the american government and the way they handle their foreign policy. I think in the end the american people are the ones that are going to suffer the most from the government's way of dealing with other governments and their foreign policies...
It is an ironic/satirical love song to Ameirca... but its not easy love, like I say in the end "if I say I love you, dare you love me too?" because that is the most courageous thing to do, to love someone thats ciricizing you and we're cirticizing America because basically they're fucking up right now and there is just so much tolerance the rest of the world can show someone who's fucking up all the time and they're pushing that limit all the time. They have the big guns... you know?"




I'd also like to point out to a couple of lyrics in the song:

It could have been good America
It could have been great America
Land of the brave and free
Welcoming you and me
But this Brave New World is not as new anymore

....

Oh America
Don't you walk out on me
Just wait a second now
Please hear me out
Oh
I'll do my best to love you
Oh yes I will
I know you're out there
C'mon
Raise your voices
Don't let them ruin your reputation
Don't let them wreck your constitution
Not out of fear
Not out of greed
 
Another thing to take note is that the character in the story/concept is responding to what he sees on tv for the first half of the album. Thus the MTV cribs theme in Spitfall and celebrity theme in Cribcaged. In America you have "we'll be right after these brief messages" and so on...

Yes of course it's Daniel writing the album but you have to think that he took it to the extreme because the character in the album needs it to be so.
 
Prog Maiden said:
I'm still luke warm on this album (and this is after having listened to it many times over the past month or whatever). Especially now that I know Scarsick is TPE Part 2, I must say I am very disappointed overall. While I love some of the songs (Idiocracy & Kingdom of Loss in particular), none of them really live up to the masterpiece that is TPE. I'll take King of Loss over Kingdom of Loss any day.

And regarding the anti-American sentiments, while I agree that Daniel is certainly more intelligent than the average human being and I agree with him on a lot of his points (hell, I'm not too happy with the country at the moment myself; I'm tempted to move to Europe), how can he fairly criticize a country he hasn't experienced? He hasn't lived here. He refuses to even come here now, and he's only been here what? like 3 times? Has he even been to the US outside of PP performances? So what's the majority of his opinion based on? Whatever the media happens to be spewing at the time? Not sure it's an entirely fair judgment on his part.
Click to expand...


This is pretty much how I'm feeling about it. I was trying to not come right out on it to begin with, because honestly I didn't know where the guy was coming from. But if this is true about him coming to the US only 3 times and basing it off that....what a douchebag. I'm all for saying what you think - but I agree with the person that said you better know what the hell you're talking about.

And if you look at MTV or McDonalds, and that is your entire definition of America or "the West", then you're certainly not being fair (although I think that McDonalds is a symbol of how capitalism can help people rise above....I mean, did the Soviet Union ever come up with anything that successful?)

The US has given more foreign aid over the years, more military aid to end genocides, more medical supplies, more humanitarian aid, etc than any other country in the world. I get so tired of hearing all the negative crap about our country - of which there certainly is a lot, like any other place - but the good that we do is pretty much always ignored, because of the anti-American sentiment in the media and around the world.

I'm unabashedly a flag waver - I grew up in the South, and I consider myself a capitalist pig. I'd be the first to say that there are a lot of things that I don't agree with that are going on in our country - in fact our next album is going to deal with that - but I believe that America is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect, but no one is.

And as far as Nuclear Assault and all that...Dan, you're right, except NA and those other thrash bands were unabashed beer guzzlers, not pretentious pseudo-intellectuals.

Flame on!
 
BlindPanzer said:
You consider thier argument to be a bit baseless (I'm assuming) but isn't that comment just as generalized?
Click to expand...

Sure! And French people are all mimes! J/K.

Actually, their argument isn't exactly baseless as they are talking about things that could certainly be construed as "bad" about America, but my point is more that I don't think that they should take any one thing like that and generalize that the entire country is headed down the crapper. I don't think that this guy has enough knowledge about our country to say that. Can "consumerism" be bad? Sure. IS it bad? Depends on your perspective. What would the average person do without consumer products? I'm typing this email on a Toshiba laptop. Consumer product. I'm drinking a Coke. Consumer product. I'm wearing underwear I bought from Target.

Consumerism is only bad if taken to an extreme. If buying stuff rules your life....you have a *personal* problem. Doesn't mean the country is screwed up.

Cribs, for example....tacky, yes. Annoying? I think so. But so what? Some people....with questionable taste, in my opinion, dig seeing that lifestyle on TV. that's cool. Some people listen to prog and buy products related to it. It's not on TV but it's the same thing. America pretty much patented modern commerce, and the rest of the world wants it. You may not like certain aspects of it, like McDonalds everywhere making people fat (who exercise poor personal judgment in overindulging in their product), Starbucks, or whatever else, but no other economic system has created more wealth in the history of mankind.

The war in Iraq. I think that we went to war with a noble goal - to get rid of Saddam Hussein, which was undoubtedly a good thing but there was no "clear & present danger" to the US with him - so they kinda cobbled together a case which proved to be full of holes. Sucks....because now it's a catch-22. There's no way to stay without criticism and casualties, not to mention the cost of it. There's no way we can go because it would cause too much political fallout, both here and abroad. So we're stuck....

To me it was a good idea with bad execution. Doesn't mean the country sucks - just means that the politicians made a bad decision and now can't get out of it easily. Won't be the last time a country missteps like that, either....

The latte comment is me being a smartass....of course. After all, there's a Starbucks on every corner, even in Sweden! =)
 
Again I'd like to point out that the concept is not anti-american, it's like if you are taking the chapter of a book and thinking thats what its all about. The album is just as much about any modern society (eastern europe, Japan, Chile, etc) as it is about America. It's about the character of the story feeling like everybody is just letting some bad things happen without questioning. Any post-freudian school of thought will tell you just the same, but we aren't bashing their institutions...
 
Western Culture wasn't born with the creation of what we have come to know today as the United States. It indicates the rise and dominion of what today is known as Europe, its culture, politics, economics. Obviously, the impact on US soil is profound because of its relation with Europe. So I don't think Daniel is critizizing only the United States.
As far as the Anti-American sentiment, I haven't heard PoS smashing Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Brasil, Panama, etc... Last time I check, there is a North America, Central America and South America. America IS NOT a country, but a whole continent.
 
Kenneth R. said:
So you think that Americans care more about children than MTV Cribs or celebrity breakups? You think that western society in general, and all around the world, people are more virtuous than selfish, more giving than consumerist?

I don't know what world you come from.
Click to expand...

What children? And who said anything about virtuousness? I don't know what world you come from either, but apparently in that world my post was a lot more detailed.
 
halcyonwayband@aol.com said:
This is pretty much how I'm feeling about it. I was trying to not come right out on it to begin with, because honestly I didn't know where the guy was coming from. But if this is true about him coming to the US only 3 times and basing it off that....what a douchebag. I'm all for saying what you think - but I agree with the person that said you better know what the hell you're talking about.

And if you look at MTV or McDonalds, and that is your entire definition of America or "the West", then you're certainly not being fair (although I think that McDonalds is a symbol of how capitalism can help people rise above....I mean, did the Soviet Union ever come up with anything that successful?)

The US has given more foreign aid over the years, more military aid to end genocides, more medical supplies, more humanitarian aid, etc than any other country in the world. I get so tired of hearing all the negative crap about our country - of which there certainly is a lot, like any other place - but the good that we do is pretty much always ignored, because of the anti-American sentiment in the media and around the world.

I'm unabashedly a flag waver - I grew up in the South, and I consider myself a capitalist pig. I'd be the first to say that there are a lot of things that I don't agree with that are going on in our country - in fact our next album is going to deal with that - but I believe that America is the greatest country in the world. Not perfect, but no one is.

And as far as Nuclear Assault and all that...Dan, you're right, except NA and those other thrash bands were unabashed beer guzzlers, not pretentious pseudo-intellectuals.

Flame on!
Click to expand...

Amen
 
Scarsick...while better than BE...is just not very good. It's just subpar compared to earlier releases. This is coming from a PoS fan. And let's face it, Daniel has a hardon for the US and he decided to address it. That's hard to dismiss. Instead of putting out thought provoking material like OHBtCL, Entropia, & Remedy Lane...he decided to be controversial. Controversy sells or at least he is probably hoping so. The argument could be made that controversial is thought provoking...but in this case, considering the history, maybe not.
 
Ascension said:
Scarsick...while better than BE...is just not very good. It's just subpar compared to earlier releases. This is coming from a PoS fan. And let's face it, Daniel has a hardon for the US and he decided to address it. That's hard to dismiss. Instead of putting out thought provoking material like OHBtCL, Entropia, & Remedy Lane...he decided to be controversial. Controversy sells or at least he is probably hoping so. The argument could be made that controversial is thought provoking...but in this case, considering the history, maybe not.
Click to expand...

And amen on that! BE was smelly poop IMO....Scarsick is much better but hard for me to get into for the above mentioned reasons! =)
 
BlindPanzer said:
Again I'd like to point out that the concept is not anti-american, it's like if you are taking the chapter of a book and thinking thats what its all about. The album is just as much about any modern society (eastern europe, Japan, Chile, etc) as it is about America. It's about the character of the story feeling like everybody is just letting some bad things happen without questioning. Any post-freudian school of thought will tell you just the same, but we aren't bashing their institutions...
Click to expand...

it seems clear to me that, as my initial reaction when i heard the album, my thought was: "nice try daniel, but it's going to fall on deaf ears and blind eyes"
 
lady_space said:
Yes, the US has more or less defined Western culture, but is not alone, and there are differences between culture here and culture "there" (wherever there may be).
Click to expand...
I agree that America alone doesn't define "western culture". However, when people speak of the west or western culture, much of their sentiment, good or bad, seems to be directed at America.

lady_space said:
I do find that strange but somewhat understandable. To me, what makes a difference is if they are just brainlessly blathering on or if they know what they're talking about (and that does not depend on where you live--plenty of Americans are flaming idiots talking out of their asses, too :p).
Click to expand...
While an opinion eloquently stated is preferable to the rantings of a moron, I still take umbrage at the anti-American sentiments of those who have never spent any real time here.

lady_space said:
To me, Daniel ('cuz, come on, it's pretty much him) sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
Click to expand...
Based on his lyrics, I would assume Daniel is a fairly bright guy. However, has he ever lived here? Or is his understanding of America, Americans and American culture based on what he's seen on T.V. and in the movies?

lady_space said:
But I just don't see why there should be a *big* difference between me saying something and, say, my husband saying something about politics/culture/what-have-you in the US.
Click to expand...
The issue I have, isn't with someone like Urban. He's spent a good deal of time here, met a lot of people, and has a fair understanding of what the U.S. is like. Plus, based on his taste in woman, he's clearly a very bright guy.

lady_space said:
Btw, I'd be interested to hear your wife's opinion if she's listened to it. I liked what she had to say about Be, and I know her politics and yours are a little different.
Click to expand...
I know I threw it on her iPod a ways back. I'm not sure if she ever really listened to it. I'll ask her.

Zod
 
BlindPanzer said:
He addresses this in a couple of interviews. Here is one for example:

MORROW interview with Daniel Gildenlow (the question is about halfway through)

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/gildenlow/video/x11gvw_pain-of-salvation-daniel-scarsick-p

I transcribed a couple of lines from it

"It is a criticism against not the american people but its more [taking sides] with the american people against the american government and the way they handle their foreign policy. I think in the end the american people are the ones that are going to suffer the most from the government's way of dealing with other governments and their foreign policies...
It is an ironic/satirical love song to Ameirca... but its not easy love, like I say in the end "if I say I love you, dare you love me too?" because that is the most courageous thing to do, to love someone thats ciricizing you and we're cirticizing America because basically they're fucking up right now and there is just so much tolerance the rest of the world can show someone who's fucking up all the time and they're pushing that limit all the time. They have the big guns... you know?"




I'd also like to point out to a couple of lyrics in the song:

It could have been good America
It could have been great America
Land of the brave and free
Welcoming you and me
But this Brave New World is not as new anymore

....

Oh America
Don't you walk out on me
Just wait a second now
Please hear me out
Oh
I'll do my best to love you
Oh yes I will
I know you're out there
C'mon
Raise your voices
Don't let them ruin your reputation
Don't let them wreck your constitution
Not out of fear
Not out of greed
Click to expand...
I think about 60-70 percent of this country wants our current President and his regime thrown out of office. The people voted for change, and to lessen the President's power in the last rounds of elections as the rival party gained control of the house and senate. Things are getting done .. slowly as usual. The people clearly are not happy with the way their civil rights are being twisted, or the way foreign policy is being ran. I don't need that preachy Daniel Gildentoes to remind me that the US has issues ... people are well aware of it.

Britt
 
I don't think thats his intent. In that interview he mentions that most people don't agree with the foreign policy issues... THATS DG AGREEING WITH YOU THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM. And lets assume thats his intent (which I consider not to be the case), music ultimately has to have a message, its up to the listener to consider it and disregard it at his/her discretion. I think your negative feelings on the message is not giving you a chance to listen to the album (yes there are more songs in the album, not just "America") objectively and/or your negative view of the album is doing the same for the individual song. Or you just don't like either the song or the album :) which is fine too..
 
BlindPanzer said:
I don't think thats his intent. In that interview he mentions that most people don't agree with the foreign policy issues... THATS DG AGREEING WITH YOU THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM. And lets assume thats his intent (which I consider not to be the case), music ultimately has to have a message, its up to the listener to consider it and disregard it at his/her discretion. I think your negative feelings on the message is not giving you a chance to listen to the album (yes there are more songs in the album, not just "America") objectively and/or your negative view of the album is doing the same for the individual song.
Click to expand...
PoS isn't my thing to begin with .. I've never been a fan, although I have taken the time to listen to almost all of their albums. I've heard this new disc as well, and I think it is their weakest material yet. America, and Disco Queen are just bad songs if you ask me, and most of what I heard just didn't grab me.

Britt
 
One extremely important point made on page 1 that seems to have been ignored or downplayed is that one does not need to be within the context in order to assess it. Americans make a lot of judgments about Europe and Asia and Africa and other continents, and we feel absolutely no shame in doing it. Being a part of the context in question gives us special advantages in that we are more exposed to it and more familiar with it- and therein also lies the disadvantage - we are surrounded by the context, and in such a way, blind to the greater picture that an outside observer would easily see. It is completely absurd for one to discount that observer's opinion on the grounds that they are not within the context. Are we humans, as we observe the universe from our little rock, not outside observers? Are we not each individually external observers of each other human? There is definitely an importance to context and how we see the big picture. Being an American and being *not* American and getting both views, as well as all other possible perspectives, is a major step towards understanding the truth.

Otherwise, we are simply seeing superfluous context. We say, no, you're wrong: it's not like you see on TV. There is truth to this. There is also truth to the statement that yes, some of the things you see on TV are true, and so are some of the stereotypes. They are both true to an extent. This is the case with all cultures. It irks me and shames me as an American that my fellow citizens stubbornly refuse to acknolwedge this obvious truth, and reinforces some of those latter stereotypes other cultures have towards America.
 
General Zod said:
Is there really a difference between the two? Saying "anti-Western" seems like a politically correct way of saying "anti-American". After all, who defines "western culture" if not America?
Click to expand...

Well anybody in Europe and Latin America. Western culture come to America (North, Central and South) from Europe. USA does not have the monopoly on western culture.
 
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