Thought on PoS Scarsick

[Ascension]

That said, the new POS is horrible because the music is awful, and Daniel can't rap for the life of him.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Superior country depends on the context you're evaluating it on. In regard to things that matter to me, I would agree statistically. In regard to things that seem to matter to other people, results may differ.

 

[SharkBlack]

and who feeds them the latest craze hmmm?

the biggest secret and biggest joke of all western culture is that the "counter" culture IS an appendage of the culture it opposes. they're all incestuous buddies owned by the same companies and governments.

case in point- Hot Topic. anticulture. owned by the same people who own the stores that Hot Topic shoppers detest. MTV. The counter culture. or is it? Antibush campaigns. It doesn't take a poly-sci student to immediately notice that democrats would hate the guy. It doesn't take a poly-sci student to see why republicans would seek to distance themselves from the guy in light of upcoming elections. the public has pinned Bush as the major cause of all the idiocy that those two parties have summarily caused, and so like good little cockroaches, they're all backing anyone who throws mud at him because they know the public approves.

it is important to note as well, that although i do agree that international (ie, european) news services are less slanted, i will underscore that they are not without bias either. no one is, and for that matter - one must observe the situation from as many angles as possible in order to best ascertain the elusive Truth. this is a fundamental reason behind my argument that PoS should not be taking flak on account of them not being American and bashing obvious flaws in western culture, a culture that geographically speaking, includes Sweden in the "west".

word!

 

[sccaldwell]

One extremely important point made on page 1 that seems to have been ignored or downplayed is that one does not need to be within the context in order to assess it. Americans make a lot of judgments about Europe and Asia and Africa and other continents, and we feel absolutely no shame in doing it. Being a part of the context in question gives us special advantages in that we are more exposed to it and more familiar with it- and therein also lies the disadvantage - we are surrounded by the context, and in such a way, blind to the greater picture that an outside observer would easily see. It is completely absurd for one to discount that observer's opinion on the grounds that they are not within the context. Are we humans, as we observe the universe from our little rock, not outside observers? Are we not each individually external observers of each other human? There is definitely an importance to context and how we see the big picture. Being an American and being *not* American and getting both views, as well as all other possible perspectives, is a major step towards understanding the truth.

Otherwise, we are simply seeing superfluous context. We say, no, you're wrong: it's not like you see on TV. There is truth to this. There is also truth to the statement that yes, some of the things you see on TV are true, and so are some of the stereotypes. They are both true to an extent. This is the case with all cultures. It irks me and shames me as an American that my fellow citizens stubbornly refuse to acknolwedge this obvious truth, and reinforces some of those latter stereotypes other cultures have towards America.

Excellent point, and well-written. Reminds me of the parts of one of Extreme's CDs:

There's "Three sides to Every Story: Yours, Mine, The Truth."

 

[sccaldwell]

Ummm... ? There's gotta be quite a few corners missing in Sweden since I last had a look then...
...oh, so that's what cutting corners means...!

And as far as the debate goes, you could put out an album with lyrics all about how absolutely awful Sweden is and it wouldn't upset me one bit.
You're quite entitled to your opinion. Be it right or wrong ... doesn't matter at all.
Then again, this is coming from someone that doesn't mind people badmouthing a band I'm in.
Guess I've a completely different mindset... I wonder, am I alone..?
Possibly. Does it matter? Not really.

That Urban...he's a funny guy!

 

[sccaldwell]

So very many of you have ripped apart BE since it was released. Why? Does nobody but me see the beauty in it? Sure it's eclectic?

I love BE. It's not my favorite (OHBTCL) or even 2nd favorite (TPE, Pt 1) PoS disc, but I think it's brilliant. I still haven't bought Scarsick, but I will....though I must admit that based on what I've heard of it, I'm not sure how much I'll like it (and I never thought I'd say that about a PoS disc). We'll see...perhaps it'll grow on me...I wasn't crazy about Entropia when I first heard it, either, but now I think it's genius. Time and many listens will tell...

Craig

 

[General Zod]

I guess the long and short of it is that I don't see any difference between someone who has lived here criticizing "here" and someone who hasn't. Obviously, a lot of people here don't feel that way.

If someone who doesn't live here wants to criticize our president, our politics or our actions on the world stage, they have every right to do so. You need not be resident on U.S. soil to understand our politics as well as we do. However, if someone wants to criticize our culture (who doesn't live here), I would say that's a different animal. To truly understand a country's culture, you really need to immerse yourself in it.

Zod

 

[BenMech]

and Daniel can't rap for the life of him.

Ehh?

 

[Kenneth R.]

Zod, I think American culture does a good job of immersing as much of the world in itself as it can. We call the phenomena Globalization.

 

[chibitotoro]

Excuse *him* for having an opinion- and a correct opinion at that since Sweden is a far superior country to America.

I'm pretty sure "correct opinion" is an oxymoron, fella.

General Zod's last post sums up my feelings on the matter perfectly. The phenomenon of globalization only immerses the rest of the world in the more superficial aspects of our culture. Just like whatever I know about Swedish culture, or whatever some of you know about Japanese culture, is only superficial. Of course you and I still form opinions of these cultures based only on those superficial observations, but the difference is we don't get up on our soapbox and preach our opinions to adoring fans the world over. When Daniel does that, and when people react to it by saying things like

He's honestly saying things that need to be said bluntly and clearly, no more insinuations and subtle pretentious philosophy- just flat out "this is what I think is wrong with the world, don't you see it too?"

that's when I start to have a problem with what he's doing.

 

[General Zod]

Zod, I think American culture does a good job of immersing as much of the world in itself as it can.

I think the comments chibitotoro made hit the nail on the head. The aspects of our culture we export tend to be those that are most superficial.

We call the phenomena Globalization.

The concept of "globalization" has little to do with culture. Mostly, it refers to economic factors (trade, labor markets, etc.)

Zod

 

[Kenneth R.]

superficial culture is still culture. it's irrational to say it doesn't "count"

especially when it is so widespread. and yes it's about trade. and trade deals with companies like mcdonalds, microsoft, mtv, cnn, abecrombie, starbucks. these companies produce products and services that are a major part of our largely superficial culture.

 

[General Zod]

superficial culture is still culture. it's irrational to say it doesn't "count"

No one said it doesn't count. However, it goes to the point I've been trying to make all along. Unless you immerse yourself in another country's culture, you're perception of that culture will be based solely on the superficial, and consequently, your opinion will have no depth.

Zod

 

[3DimensionalAperture]

I'm pretty sure "correct opinion" is an oxymoron, fella.

The words "correct" and "opinion" by themselves have nothing whatsoever to do with eachother, let alone have two opposing definitions so bzzt wrong.

Yes it's true that opinions are subjective, but some opinions have more substance to them than others. Sweden > America is one of them.

 

[BlindPanzer]

But that same proposition, Sweden IS better than America is itself dependent on the point of view. That is to say that it depends what you are comparing. The standard of living is Sweden is a lot higher (I think in the top 5). But the United States has higher GDP. Of course this is all relative to the field of Economics.

The irony, too, must not be lost in that Gildenlow is also trying to "sell us" something. Namely hijs ideas on society through the album.

 

[Kenneth R.]

No one said it doesn't count. However, it goes to the point I've been trying to make all along. Unless you immerse yourself in another country's culture, you're perception of that culture will be based solely on the superficial, and consequently, your opinion will have no depth.

Zod

who's to say our popular culture (cause ultimately that's what it's about, more on this in a moment) has any depth anyway?

popular culture. not what jim bob and andy do in a shed every thursday night in hicksville, east bumfuck. popular culture, as in what at least a majority or significant number of americans do or think. this would be "our" culture rather than specific instances of your culture, my culture, the kinds of things you are saying are not good enough. if someone only visited a couple times, they'd get more of these than the general sense.

however, you've also argued that the general sense is superficial. to me, this says that daniel is right on the money. american popular culture IS superficial and vapid, and the valuable, interesting cultures are rare subsets shared by specific groups. in other words, you can get a very accurate understanding of mainstream culture via the usual methods already discussed at length. it's not that they're a poor representation of our culture, it's that people like you or me who associate with more meaningful culture want to distance ourselves from that general image.

 

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

The words "correct" and "opinion" by themselves have nothing whatsoever to do with eachother, let alone have two opposing definitions so bzzt wrong.

Yes it's true that opinions are subjective, but some opinions have more substance to them than others. Sweden > America is one of them.

what, it has more "substance" to it because you agree with it? It's subjective, and that means that what you said is completely illogical.

Also.....you're right - "correct" and "opinion" by themselves have nothing to do with each other. But when you put them together, they do.

****BBBBBB*****says the Aflac duck.

 

[BlindPanzer]

Might as well continue the discussion

This is from an interview with Johan (guitarist)

Well, the album does seem to have a bit of an anti-American vibe to it

(sighs) Well, that isn't really what we meant to do. You see, the American people are great a people, but as a collective they do strange stuff. Take Iraq for example. They went there for the wrong reasons. I'm not saying it wasn't necessary to free those people, but they told us they had weapons of mass destruction, which was a lie. If they had just said: "We need to free the people in Iraq" that would've been an entirely different thing altogether, but they didn't. So that's one thing that's strange for me to see. But also, when I look at the way the system treats it's people, it's just really weird. We've been to America and a lot of Americans agree. For example, if a 12 year old boy becomes a criminal, the system says he had a choice. It doesn't matter that he grew up in a slum, and his father left him, and his mother is a crack whore. You have a choice, they say. But when it's about your own survival as a 12 year old, do you really have a choice? For me that's strange. But maybe that's a part of politics. You have to make choices for other people. I won't say that Europe is any better, but the eyes of the world are always on America. Everybody sees America. We just see things that seem to be wrong, and we're not gonna shut up about it. I mean, it's quite easy to throw shit at politicians, and that's not what we're about. They're people too, and they probably make their choices because they think it's the right thing to do. To be honest, I'm glad I'm a musician, it's much healthier. (laughs)

http://www.gothtronic.com/?page=23&interviews=975

 

[halcyonwayband@aol.com]

Might as well continue the discussion

This is from an interview with Johan (guitarist)

Well, the album does seem to have a bit of an anti-American vibe to it

(sighs) Well, that isn't really what we meant to do. You see, the American people are great a people, but as a collective they do strange stuff. Take Iraq for example. They went there for the wrong reasons. I'm not saying it wasn't necessary to free those people, but they told us they had weapons of mass destruction, which was a lie. If they had just said: "We need to free the people in Iraq" that would've been an entirely different thing altogether, but they didn't. So that's one thing that's strange for me to see. But also, when I look at the way the system treats it's people, it's just really weird. We've been to America and a lot of Americans agree. For example, if a 12 year old boy becomes a criminal, the system says he had a choice. It doesn't matter that he grew up in a slum, and his father left him, and his mother is a crack whore. You have a choice, they say. But when it's about your own survival as a 12 year old, do you really have a choice? For me that's strange. But maybe that's a part of politics. You have to make choices for other people. I won't say that Europe is any better, but the eyes of the world are always on America. Everybody sees America. We just see things that seem to be wrong, and we're not gonna shut up about it. I mean, it's quite easy to throw shit at politicians, and that's not what we're about. They're people too, and they probably make their choices because they think it's the right thing to do. To be honest, I'm glad I'm a musician, it's much healthier. (laughs)

http://www.gothtronic.com/?page=23&interviews=975

Well, the problem with that statement is that a kid like that DOES have a choice. He chooses to cap someone with a gatt or whatever. True, someone in that situation is at a disadvantage relative to other people, but people in worse situations have transcended. It all comes down to making good decisions when faced with hard choices - and that's something that all of us are responsible for. Besides, a minor offender is usually not going to be treated like an adult in our court system.....their records as a minor are sealed when they become adult. A kid in that situation could choose to lead a life of crime or whatever, or they could show up at the Salvation Army or a church, and get some help. It's up to them.

People are going to be born or stuck in slums, or stuck in bad situations for the rest of time - no matter what country you look at, you're going to see them. So how is that whole statement relevant?

 

[BlindPanzer]

I think the train of thought there is to fix our own before fixing others.