WHAT HAS MUSICIANSHIP COME TO?

[Gold]

i was jamming with a guitar player last night to try and start a band, when we were warming up i saw him practicing sweep excersizes so i thought he might be pretty good, however after we started to jam a little i asked him to back up one of my leads with a few power chords and he couldnt play them (this was in drop D btw)

what has happend to learning the basics of playing an instrument before learning more complex things?

anybody else ever see anything like this?

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

I can play guitar leads moderately quickly with practice (excluding sweeping and other "technical" skills), but I suck at chords and tremolos. I also have a friend who learned to play just about every Metallica solo, but had no concept of keys or scales at the time. I've since taught him the basic fundamentals of major, minor and phrygian scales, and he's taking a classical guitar course through our school, but I still have never seen him play any chord other than a power chord or barre chord, not even a third.

A lot of it depends on your motivation to learn though. There aren't very many kids who have an interest in learning chord progressions, seventh chords, etc., especially after hearing guitarists like Muhammad Suicmez. They just want to be able to shred, so they find some tabs and practice nothing else.

EDIT: In fact, I think this applies to the majority of the guitar players I know. My brother has been "playing" guitar for over five years now, and while he can play pretty fast and learn most tabs within a matter of minutes, he still has absolutely no clue what key or scale he's using. I always make an effort to figure everything out when I'm listening to some new tabs, but this may be more of a reflection of my OCD induced quest for perfection than a "true" motivation to learn.

 

[waif]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. Actually, I have to admit to being guilty of this, to a certain extent. But not knowing POWER CHORDS??? That's pretty bad.

 

[Nayz]

Wow my main insturment is bass and even I can do chords on a guitar...?

I have played with people like this though, people who are good lead players but not very good rythem players. In my current band the guys can play everything I write but have trouble composing anything themselves, which I find quite interesting!

 

[Metal is Religion]

Myself and a few people I know are able to write music, but not necessarily shred. Shredding is cool, but if you dont have any music to back it up, whats the point? Id much rather have a good song with no solo than constant shredding. Ive recently been really enjoying black metal, which means, not a whole lot of solos. I like this better than something like Necrophagist, which is constant shredding. All i'm saying is that composition is more important than shredding.

 

[devilfish063]

A good ear is much more important than a bunch of knowledge in theory imo.
I really don't know any scale positions, but i can tell which notes "fit" to a certain rythm and which don't. I never really had the will to study modes and stuff, but i can make a lead sound cheerful as well as depressing.
Satch once said, it all comes down to what you want to express by your music.

 

[razoredge]

I've played with all kinds. One guy I was in a band with for a few years likes to do leads. He has decent feel, better than mine yet never had a clue as to what he was doing. Come up with a progression not in his usual playing zone and he'd be lost. His scales also had at least one bad note in them. Yet I wanted to work on my improvision but his riffs were very sloppy and most of his riff creativity was very elementary. He could strum clean stuff fair at best, picking parts very elementary. Our jams were good when I was backing him up but pretty shaby if I came out of the goove and tried to work on my improv. We had fun though.

Another guy I know has skills and natural talent beyond belief, a Yngwie inspired soloist but he did not sound like him. Just understood that sound and the harmonic minor stuff, could tie them together with blues and pentatonic scales. He'd start a jam out pretty good, some melodic feel and some speed but as he got more comfortable he would just blast away 140 mph and loose all emotion. His mind worked so fast I couldnt comprehend how he could keep his mind and fingers together at that speed. He was a great creative riffer as well. Should have heard him try to strum, not that its necessary critiera for metal but we were a cover band playing bar gigs so the real heavy stuff was for fun at practices. With all his ability and skill he really never showed much interest in doing anything with it and your lucky if you can get him to jam once every two months.

Ive got together with many others that seemed to be able to play but they only knew what they knew and you couldnt get a free jam going with them to save your ass. They would turn into a twilight zone slop fest.

Then there are those who like a saturated delayed effect cause it sounds great sitting at home playing alone or for playing solos. Then when they come to play with a band, when they go into the riffs with all the delay you have a big noisy puddle of mud. This would apply to the two guys I mentioned above.

 

[SWAT]

A good ear is much more important than a bunch of knowledge in theory imo.
I really don't know any scale positions, but i can tell which notes "fit" to a certain rythm and which don't. I never really had the will to study modes and stuff, but i can make a lead sound cheerful as well as depressing.
Satch once said, it all comes down to what you want to express by your music.

I just wanted to say I agree 100%, having all this knowledge is good, but what really counts is just being creative and making good music.

 

[Nayz]

I agree that I would rather listen to something composed nicely without a solo then constant shredding (Although I do love Necrophagist, Yngwie, Mr Big etc) however shredding does have its place and I still recognise the skill needed to do it correctly. I love it when it is written into a song nicely rather then aimlessly.

The best guitarist I know is a wonderful guitarist and composer, and is also amazing at improvising, and he does it all from theory. At the same time, theory is not my strong point yet when we improvise together everything fits nicely as it should.

However, I don't think people should disregard theory and say all that matters is expression, I agree, of course thats all that matters - its music, but theory is designed to HELP you express yourself and get that song out of your head and onto the instruments exactly the way you want it to be, its fine not to know theory, but I believe it is beneficial to the user at some point or another, even at a basic level.

 

[oldschoolowns]

I know what you mean. I blame guitar teachers. I got told to read a book to learn all that theory shit, caus quote "I cant teach that."

 

[Nayz]

Wow I hope you don't pay him hun! Theory can be taught... else there wouldn't be courses on it.

 

[Pђoenix]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. Actually, I have to admit to being guilty of this, to a certain extent. But not knowing POWER CHORDS??? That's pretty bad.

Yeah it's pretty lame. When I first started, I started with chords and various progressions, then moved on as my influences became more apparent. My style doesn't include many barre chords etc. so I suppose in that way I've lost touch with some of the "basics"

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

I know what you mean. I blame guitar teachers. I got told to read a book to learn all that theory shit, caus quote "I cant teach that."

If he can't teach theory, what can he teach? At least music theory can be learned to an extent, whereas a true musical ear is something that you either have or you don't.

 

[oldschoolowns]

sorry, I didnt mean that quite as literally, he has taught me a fair bit of theory, just not intentionally.

 

[Gold]

im not a person that knows a whole lot of theory, but theres a difference between knowing theory and knowing the basics

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

sorry, I didnt mean that quite as literally, he has taught me a fair bit of theory, just not intentionally.

What do you mean "not intentionally?" I really don't understand how this can happen.

 

[sumairetsu]

A good ear is much more important than a bunch of knowledge in theory imo.

Don't knock music theory. This way you'll know exactly what that chord is that you're playing, which inversion it is and where you'll want to go with it. Besides, as a friend of mine once said, "It's better to know the rules of music theory - this way you can break them much easier!"

 

[oldschoolowns]

What do you mean "not intentionally?" I really don't understand how this can happen.

he taught me theory, but not for the sake of teaching me theory. and i dont think he was aware that i was learning as he explained.

 

[devilfish063]

Don't knock music theory. This way you'll know exactly what that chord is that you're playing, which inversion it is and where you'll want to go with it. Besides, as a friend of mine once said, "It's better to know the rules of music theory - this way you can break them much easier!"

I really don't have anything against music theory. I believe it does make things easier especially for session jams and stuff.
I was talking about composing actually. When i'm at home with my guitar and i want to create some lead or something, i don't think of it like "hey, i'll use an aeolian mode or whatever".. I have all those note combinations in my head, i just have to decide which one sounds better.
For an example, I might have been using a macedonian scale without even knowing, because i have heard their traditional music and jammed on it before.

 

[BlackMetalWhiteGuy]

he taught me theory, but not for the sake of teaching me theory. and i dont think he was aware that i was learning as he explained.

Then why did he teach you theory?

I really don't have anything against music theory. I believe it does make things easier especially for session jams and stuff.
I was talking about composing actually. When i'm at home with my guitar and i want to create some lead or something, i don't think of it like "hey, i'll use an aeolian mode or whatever".. I have all those note combinations in my head, i just have to decide which one sounds better.
For an example, I might have been using a macedonian scale without even knowing, because i have heard their traditional music and jammed on it before.

I don't see how this is preferable to not knowing. Whenever I think of something new, I can usually tell what scale I'm using just by listening to it, but in those cases when I'm not sure, I always make an effort to figure it out before moving on with the rest of the piece.