What makes the best music?

for me personally i am pretty open minded about what a band lyrics are about... i dont think it has to share my values... i listen to band that is un-black metal and really un-black, but if the music is good... i will listen to it... i just think they need a motive and strong ideology behind them... no matter what... except christian rock... all thier ideology and motivs make them a very bad bands....
 
We're extremely close to reaching the no-going-back point for pollution - guaranteeing the extinction of our species in the near future. Collectively, we're murdering humans on a scale that dwarves the holocaust (not too relevant really, just thought it might make a few of you moralists think a little ;)). If it's come to having to sacrifice some of our so-called 'developments' (certainly not all of them), or even our own people, would you really call the position we're in a strong one? Especially seeing as the current collective Christian-derived mindset sees the above as the ultimate taboos, 'sacrificing comfort or even life for the good of something more important - omg noes u nazi!!!'

Of course Christianity is a strong religion - a strong idea that's prevailed for centuries. But, survival of the fittest has been working against us for a long time now, we're collectively weak, and there are stronger exceptions to this who understand many of the self-defeating elements of our current belief system and wish to wrestle those out of us, and in turn pull the human species back into a healthy existence.
 
i think samoth from emperor said it right.... christianity is a fad, and once there are more intelligent open minded people who dont become christians because its kind of like a fad... eventually more intelligent people will come... i hope... and we wont even have to worry about christianity...
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
This is a nice little passage from a recent BM FAQ which summarises why a whole genre devoted to opposing Christianity (either directly or indirectly) was spawned:


BEFORE ANYONE ACCUSES ME OF BRINGING RELIGION INTO THIS TOPIC (like that’s a bad thing anyways…)! Let it be known that Guardian brought religion into the topic when he quoted that whole long thing. So don’t blame me.

What I find absurd and frankly disgusting is the hatred towards Christ himself (who btw, is a proven historical character)... I can understand hatred (though I'm definitely NOT saying it's justified) towards the many hypocritical "christians" you see day-to-day and the priests of the catholic church envolved in pedophelia etc... But I fail to understand how people can outright HATE Christ... even if you don't believe he's God, I think (I hope) we can all agree that he was "a good man".

No one can accuse Christ of hypocrisy, he lived a life of servitude and died crucified for having UPSET THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS of his day. This is why I find it really disgusting when I see bands with names like “Impaled Nazarene” etc…

Furthermore, I find it amusing how all the “ultra-kvlt non-conformist” bands found within black metal can all conform and be so adamantly anti-christian. In that long quote you posted Guardian, it cites the close-mindedness of the Church throughout history (conversions at sword/gun-point etc…) as being one of the principal reasons that BM is so anti-christian. Yet the oh-so-open-minded black metallers refuse to even consider anything but their anti-christian views.

Furthermore, in that long quote another reason cited for anti-christian rage is that black metallers are against a “linear way of life” and a “set of moral values”… and how “good things can come out supposedly sinful behavior” (I’m not directly quoting here but rather summing up the general ideas in Guardian’s quote). So how in the HECK can Satan-worship bring about good??? I think that when it comes to that black metallers are WAY off base when trying to sing about something anti-christian. They’re chosing the WRONG thing to praise. Satan, at least in many religions (not just Christianity) in evil incarnate who wishes the complete destruction of man. And since black metallers are taking Satan as a way of being anti-Christian it makes sense that they follow this viewpoint.

How can you pro-Satan in view of this? That’s what I REALLY want to know. Seems that the best way to be pro-Satan (as many black metal bands are trying to appear) is to kill yourself. Then you’re pleasing him. Surprising I haven’t heard of any mass black metaller suicides… Which brings me to a new point, that virtually all black metal bands are being conformist hypocrites who are all pandering to the anti-christian way of thought to be “tr00” yet fail to follow through and kill themselves. Note I am definitely NOT advocating suicide OR Satan worship. Just the opposite in fact. If you’re going to bash the hypocrisy and close-mindness in “Christianity” (in quotes because the “christianity” mentioned throughout Guardian’s post is hardly that) as least do it in an educated way that makes actual sense.

It seems from Guardian’s post that the average black metal band are essentially open-minded liberals who are disgusted with Christianity’s close-mindednes and oppression of other beliefs. They need to cut the Satanic crap and start actually having meaningful lyrics.
 
WNxScythe said:
What I find absurd and frankly disgusting is the hatred towards Christ himself (who btw, is a proven historical character)... I can understand hatred (though I'm definitely NOT saying it's justified) towards the many hypocritical "christians" you see day-to-day and the priests of the catholic church envolved in pedophelia etc... But I fail to understand how people can outright HATE Christ... even if you don't believe he's God, I think (I hope) we can all agree that he was "a good man".

No one can accuse Christ of hypocrisy, he lived a life of servitude and died crucified for having UPSET THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS of his day. This is why I find it really disgusting when I see bands with names like “Impaled Nazarene” etc…

It's the Christian values that are hated, the hypocrisy of various devoted Christians is a very small part of it. Christ as a person is largely irrelevant, though seeing as he was a main cause, and remains a symbol, of the things that are so hated, why on earth would any anti-Christians not 'hate' him?

Furthermore, I find it amusing how all the “ultra-kvlt non-conformist” bands found within black metal can all conform and be so adamantly anti-christian. In that long quote you posted Guardian, it cites the close-mindedness of the Church throughout history (conversions at sword/gun-point etc…) as being one of the principal reasons that BM is so anti-christian. Yet the oh-so-open-minded black metallers refuse to even consider anything but their anti-christian views.

I disagree, most anti-Christians have had first hand experience of being moralist, and virtually all of them understand why people are moralist far more than moralists dare to understand why people are anti-Christian. BM isn't anti-conformist as such, it opposes conformism for the sake of conformism, and it opposes conforming to something that has no basis in healthy reality. Two people sharing the same beliefs doesn't automatically believe that one is a sheep following the other.

Furthermore, in that long quote another reason cited for anti-christian rage is that black metallers are against a “linear way of life” and a “set of moral values”… and how “good things can come out supposedly sinful behavior” (I’m not directly quoting here but rather summing up the general ideas in Guardian’s quote). So how in the HECK can Satan-worship bring about good??? I think that when it comes to that black metallers are WAY off base when trying to sing about something anti-christian. They’re chosing the WRONG thing to praise. Satan, at least in many religions (not just Christianity) in evil incarnate who wishes the complete destruction of man. And since black metallers are taking Satan as a way of being anti-Christian it makes sense that they follow this viewpoint.

How can you pro-Satan in view of this? That’s what I REALLY want to know. Seems that the best way to be pro-Satan (as many black metal bands are trying to appear) is to kill yourself. Then you’re pleasing him. Surprising I haven’t heard of any mass black metaller suicides… Which brings me to a new point, that virtually all black metal bands are being conformist hypocrites who are all pandering to the anti-christian way of thought to be “tr00” yet fail to follow through and kill themselves. Note I am definitely NOT advocating suicide OR Satan worship. Just the opposite in fact. If you’re going to bash the hypocrisy and close-mindness in “Christianity” (in quotes because the “christianity” mentioned throughout Guardian’s post is hardly that) as least do it in an educated way that makes actual sense.

The immaturity of Satan-worshipping is well-documented within BM circles. I'm not sure if Satan is even mentioned during that passage. I find using Satan as a metaphor frankly annoying and redundant these days, but I also understand that people should use it taking into account that it's the one thing that's widely recognised as the polar opposite to Christianity.

It seems from Guardian’s post that the average black metal band are essentially open-minded liberals who are disgusted with Christianity’s close-mindednes and oppression of other beliefs. They need to cut the Satanic crap and start actually having meaningful lyrics.

Black metal as I see it doesn't oppose the fact that Christianity is forced onto us, it opposes the beliefs themselves. I'm sure most BMers would use many similar methods to Christianity to get people on their side, it would even be a satisfying revenge for some. I think you're also thinking in too simple terms, everything from the ten commandments to the elevation of humans as the dominant species to the bastardisation of western cultures to the belief in equality etc etc is hated, it's not just self-confessed Christians, it's a good 99.9% of modern Western people. You don't have to believe in God to live by Christian-derived values, after all.
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
It's the Christian values that are hated, the hypocrisy of various devoted Christians is a very small part of it. Christ as a person is largely irrelevant, though seeing as he was a main cause, and remains a symbol, of the things that are so hated, why on earth would any anti-Christians not 'hate' him?

Because the reasons you cited (in the quote) for hatred of christianity are things that cannot be attributed to Christ himself (hypocrisy, forcing on of beliefs, etc...)...

I disagree, most anti-Christians have had first hand experience of being moralist, and virtually all of them understand why people are moralist far more than moralists dare to understand why people are anti-Christian. BM isn't anti-conformist as such, it opposes conformism for the sake of conformism, and it opposes conforming to something that has no basis in healthy reality. Two people sharing the same beliefs doesn't automatically believe that one is a sheep following the other.

Don't understand your argument here... please try again ;)... I just dont understand what you're saying (moralists and such).

The immaturity of Satan-worshipping is well-documented within BM circles. I'm not sure if Satan is even mentioned during that passage. I find using Satan as a metaphor frankly annoying and redundant these days, but I also understand that people should use it taking into account that it's the one thing that's widely recognised as the polar opposite to Christianity.

Yes it is annoying and redudant which is why BM bands should stop using it in EVERY FREAKING SONG (well that's exaggerating but not too much)... I'm pretty sure BM bands could come up with a better way of expressing their anti-religion atheistic beliefs.

Black metal as I see it doesn't oppose the fact that Christianity is forced onto us, it opposes the beliefs themselves. I'm sure most BMers would use many similar methods to Christianity to get people on their side, it would even be a satisfying revenge for some. I think you're also thinking in too simple terms, everything from the ten commandments to the elevation of humans as the dominant species to the bastardisation of western cultures to the belief in equality etc etc is hated, it's not just self-confessed Christians, it's a good 99.9% of modern Western people. You don't have to believe in God to live by Christian-derived values, after all.

Belief of equality hated? Why's that? What's wrong with equality? Arent we all equal??? Not sure what you're saying there.

And what do you mean bastardization of western cultures? Don't understand... Sorry dude I don't get your metaphor here (not your fault)

I mean heck, I'm against plenty of "western culture", the hypocrisy, the wealth-getting, the INequality, though I do believe that humans are the superior species (made in image of God)... and I'm also for a right/wrong system... obviously this system is abused very frequently though now adays (look at the catholic priests for example).

Seems to me by your arguments (which make perfect sense) BM's attacks on christianity are largely political... so why do we need to have satan involved at all? It's been getting old for a LOONG time now. Especially since I severely doubt [most] black metallers would ACTUALLY like to see Satan in charge :err:
 
Don't understand your argument here... please try again ;)... I just dont understand what you're saying (moralists and such).

Born into a Christian world, Christianity is something a person has to fight away from. Every anti-Christian knows exactly why a Christian believes what he/she believes, and understands it completely, despite disagreeing with it. Very, very few Christians understand fully why anyone might oppose them, they're so sure that by being Christian they're being 'good' and anyone who opposes is being 'evil' and is therefore inferior (normally the word used is 'rebellious' - linked to immaturity). These days, people don't realise the extent to which the laws and regulations and values are still under Christianity's little finger - the people who follow these things are the real 'enemy', regardless of whether they consider themselves actual 'Christians' or believe in God.

My other point was that BM doesn't hate Christianity because it's conformist, and that anti-Christians aren't necessarily sheep just because they share the same beliefs.

Yes it is annoying and redudant which is why BM bands should stop using it in EVERY FREAKING SONG (well that's exaggerating but not too much)... I'm pretty sure BM bands could come up with a better way of expressing their anti-religion atheistic beliefs.

To be fair, there's a good deal of BM bands who don't mention Satan at all.

Belief of equality hated? Why's that? What's wrong with equality? Arent we all equal??? Not sure what you're saying there.

And what do you mean bastardization of western cultures? Don't understand... Sorry dude I don't get your metaphor here (not your fault)

A culture which used to be based on various healthy Pagan values suddenly had unhealthy Christian ones forced onto it from the east. The external 'good' and 'bad' value system (which doesn't exist in reality and isn't productive), the suggestion of a spiritual 'higher power' (which is far fetched), the fear of death and importance placed on individual comfort (which buggers all sorts of things up), the elevation of humans above nature making nature unimportant despite the fact that it's part of everything and we wouldn't exist without it (which is leading to our extinction along with other things), etcetc. That's basically the point. Those who have pride in themselves and ergo their ancestry etc want their own natural and beautiful culture back, not the current alien one that isn't working.

And no, we're not all equal, it's ludicrous to imply otherwise. Pitying the weak is a primary aspect of Christianity and, like my quote said, it unnaturally lowers everybody to the weakest level and leaves no room for evolution, pride, etcetc which once brought beauty to the west.
 
I don't know about in the countries in which a lot of those bands live.....but western society is hardly a "Christian" culture. Maybe it puts up the facade, but real Christians are probably in the minority.
 
'Healthy pagan values'? :) Some people here live in a cuckoo land. Reading Jan Fridegards "Trägudars land" trilogy might be a good start for them to stop idealizing some things.
 
The Grimace said:
Good music must be:

1. Sincere
2. Relevant

Good music should be:

1. Innovative
2. Challenging
3. Idealistic

Good music is not:

1. Immitation
2. TeH HEVY ThRASh RIFFz!!!
3. Irrelevant to the times

The only thing that makes a band good or bad is their intentions. If a band aspires to make a certain thing, and they create that thing using the fullest of their abilities, and nobody has done this certain thing quite this way before, then their creation is artistically justified, and they are good.

Whether or not faggoty fanboys enjoy it makes no difference. If you don't like a band, that's your problem, not theirs. You need to expand your horizons. We are not musical entertainers. If I produce something that you are comfortable with, that you have heard before, then I have failed. I do not have the same job as Britney Spears, to provide non-challenging, insincere background music with pretty lights and colors for people with no artistic aspiration.

Done and done. GoD did very well too.
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
Born into a Christian world, Christianity is something a person has to fight away from. Every anti-Christian knows exactly why a Christian believes what he/she believes, and understands it completely, despite disagreeing with it. Very, very few Christians understand fully why anyone might oppose them, they're so sure that by being Christian they're being 'good' and anyone who opposes is being 'evil' and is therefore inferior (normally the word used is 'rebellious' - linked to immaturity). These days, people don't realise the extent to which the laws and regulations and values are still under Christianity's little finger - the people who follow these things are the real 'enemy', regardless of whether they consider themselves actual 'Christians' or believe in God.

Please explain the details of christianity and how one is actually defined a christian. I'd like to hear your belief on this because, chances are, as many other people have told me incorrectly, you will too.

My other point was that BM doesn't hate Christianity because it's conformist, and that anti-Christians aren't necessarily sheep just because they share the same beliefs.
Not neccessarily sheep, but I'm pretty freaking sure alot are. If the trend was to sing about why socialism is great (just taking a random example), I'm sure most BM bands would sing about that.

To be fair, there's a good deal of BM bands who don't mention Satan at all.

Name some please, about 80% of the BM bands I've looked into mention him in one way or another. Either that or they're singing about impaling christians on burning stakes :Smug:



A culture which used to be based on various healthy Pagan values suddenly had unhealthy Christian ones forced onto it from the east. The external 'good' and 'bad' value system (which doesn't exist in reality and isn't productive), the suggestion of a spiritual 'higher power' (which is far fetched), the fear of death and importance placed on individual comfort (which buggers all sorts of things up), the elevation of humans above nature making nature unimportant despite the fact that it's part of everything and we wouldn't exist without it (which is leading to our extinction along with other things), etcetc. That's basically the point. Those who have pride in themselves and ergo their ancestry etc want their own natural and beautiful culture back, not the current alien one that isn't working.

Right so I'm gonna give you PROOF that I think you'll find hard to deny that there is SOME sort of superior being up there, whether it's God, aliens, or the ancient bloodmoon of the sea :p.

Assuming we evolved from microscopic organisms who evolved from... apparentally just chemicals reacting together, who were formed as a result of the collision of say a couple planets (that formed earth) who were created by the big bang which started when a cataclsymic explosion in another universe occured which had been started by another big bang hundreds of billions of years earlier which started all by itself.... Wait a sec. What? I don't think things can just start by themselves... do you see my point? SOMETHING has to have started by itself without being caused by something else. Only one thing could do that... a supreme being of some sort.

I fail to see how the "healthy" pagan values of going around raiding other tribes is good. I also fail to see how you can possibly think a good-bad system isn't "natural" or good. Do you suggest we legalize murder? If we gave into all of our natural insticts we'd all be running around killing each other. In case you hadn't noticed, man is not "naturally good". If that were so we wouldnt have so many freaking problems in this world.

I never said that nature is unimportant. I'm a green myself (though opposed to gay rights junk) and I believe protecting the environment is CERTAINLY a priority. I do believe men are the superior race, but I also believe we as such have been charged with the duty to protect and care for everything else, something we aren't doing unfortunately :(

And no, we're not all equal, it's ludicrous to imply otherwise. Pitying the weak is a primary aspect of Christianity and, like my quote said, it unnaturally lowers everybody to the weakest level and leaves no room for evolution, pride, etcetc which once brought beauty to the west.

No we are indeed not equal, but surely you would like it to be so? A utopian and impossible vision to be sure... but who doesnt want everyone to be happy?

Where did you come up with this idea that pitying the weak is a primary aspect of christianity??? Yes HELPING the weak is certainly an aspect, but how is this pitying???

If you're suggesting we implement a "natural selection" type system (ala Hitler killing off the disabled and elderly)... well, hard to argue that that would produce a "evolved" race but it's just plain... evil.

oh and Naggamenteh and Barking pumpkin are both totally right in their statements.
 
Satanic anti-Christianity is just as, if not stupider, than what it is mocking/the people who it is mocking.

Pagan anti-Christianity (aka the rejection of traditional Christian values in favor of a more wide worldview) = the best kind, and also probably the healthiest of morally correct religions in the world today.
 
I'm not talking about 'real Christians' in the sense I think some of you mean, I'm talking about people with values derived from Christianity.

The whole Pagan movement, naturalist bands, nationalist bands, etcetc all have no mentioned of Satan or Satanism in their music, and they make up a large percentage of black metal.

What started this line of supreme beings, Scythe? Plucked out of thin air? No more likely than the universe being so. And it's far more likely we just haven't fully grasped the scientific reasons for the big bang than that some omniscient being created it, seems like a crazy fantasy to me.

http://www.anus.com/zine/philosophy/index_society.html

bye *is late for a counter strike clan match*
 
Guardian of Darkness said:
I'm not talking about 'real Christians' in the sense I think some of you mean, I'm talking about people with values derived from Christianity.

The whole Pagan movement, naturalist bands, nationalist bands, etcetc all have no mentioned of Satan or Satanism in their music, and they make up a large percentage of black metal.

What started this line of supreme beings, Scythe? Plucked out of thin air? No more likely than the universe being so. And it's far more likely we just haven't fully grasped the scientific reasons for the big bang than that some omniscient being created it, seems like a crazy fantasy to me.

http://www.anus.com/zine/philosophy/index_society.html

bye *is late for a counter strike clan match*


I suppose you're correct in saying that pagan, nationalism, etc... makes up a large percentage of BM... but still, satanism is rapant.

"No more likely than the universe being so"

^^That's basically saying that the universe is God... so you just proved my argument.

BTW next time you link me some pornography please let me know in advance as I have no desire to look at it.
 
WNxScythe said:
"No more likely than the universe being so"

^^That's basically saying that the universe is God... so you just proved my argument.

BTW next time you link me some pornography please let me know in advance as I have no desire to look at it.

I think you're reaching a *tiny* bit there. There's a big difference between saying 'the natural process of the universe is our God' and 'there is a supreme omniscient conscious being in the skies who will reward if you live by the ways that are written in this book'.

As for the last bit... alright. :erk:
 
Well I can't really argue further from that point. But I think by now we can both agree that complete atheism is fairly idiotic.

Faith is inherently involved in either belief in evolution, God or whatever.
 
swizzlenuts said:
but son of a bitch GoD, do you know everything.... your answers are what everyone is trying to think of....

I think you've raised an important point here. Perhaps I am God. I mean, just look at my name.