DEBATE - can metal be as good if the ideology is not there?

[Hammer of Might]

I have read in various definitions of certain genres that the music itself is focused towards one main ideology, e.g. death metal is a musical representation of nihilism. You could perhaps draw similar parallels with black metal having the whole "satanist" ideology in many cases.

Do you think this is a necessary element which adds to the music in any way, or would you say that a particular genre could be done just as well without having certain beliefs, in particular the hateful or aggressive type of focus which many many bands have.

In other words, do you believe that a band could play equally good music without having that underlying theme or message to get across?

 

[SADUDE]

I think the themes are childish, and can't imagine anyone taking them seriously. It is entertainment. For the most part metal is just another part of pop music. Pop music for angry suburban whites who usually choose it over rap. Maybe the listeners tend to take the music a little more seriously. WHy they do this I will never know. The comparisons to classical music are rediculous. The emtal that evades the trite gore, satan bullocks and goes into philosophy can probably be viewed similarly. Anyone who is somewhat philosophical oriented should know it is useless to take too seriously. Which brings me to nihilism. It is very hypocritical to take nihilism seriously because the theories can be applied to itself.

 

[ThePhilosopher]

For a lot of people, metal and music in general is a lot more than just entertainment. Of course it CAN entertain, but art can certainly have more meaning than just fleeting entertainment.

 

[Spirit In Black]

I listen to music to hear good music, not to be told what to believe/think.......I could care less about lyrical content although good lyrics are more fun to read. I don't care about a bands ideology I just like good music.

 

[speed]

Finally a decent thread, thank you High on Maiden.

Ideology is sort of one of those pulse words everyone seems to throw around to describe everything. Surely a artistic work that has some point of view or reference, be it love, ideology, sorrow, etc, makes for a much stronger work than music done for music's sake, which is usually a boring, forced, technical exercise.

Ideology is discriminating, it is not universal; music is not discrimating- it is universal. For instance Prokofiev composed brilliant ideological works for the soviet government, I do not care for the ideology, in fact the ethos of Pro Soviet brotherhood sickens me, yet the music itself is still universal and powerful , despite its ideology. Thus what is important is if the musical creator has some larger meaning behind his work, some inspiration; if inspiration and point of view is present the music will most likely be much better and transcend its own ideology or inspiration.
I think all underground metal has a foundation of revolt against conformity and the masses- is this a ideology, well that is a question that is open to much debate. However, many bands choose conformity within the metal genre itself. How many non-original bands are there that are merely clones of another more popular and influential band?

 

[Focusphere]

Satanism in metal was always metaphorical. Read between the lines. No one connected with reality ever thought otherwise, including the bands making this music.

All intelligent music has an ideology, including instrumental music. It's simply not written out for you in lyrics. Beethoven had an idea in mind when he created his masterpieces. It was not just entertainment for him. It transcends, and has importance. There is no sense in trying to objectify this because it does not need validation and, for me, it takes away from the spirit of the music.

With some bands though, music is an easy excuse to impress chicks and make some money on the side while you're going to school. If you have nothing important to say, I don't want to hear from you, in written or musical form.

 

[Focusphere]

Quote

"Maybe the listeners tend to take the music a little more seriously. WHy they do this I will never know."

Because relevant music is not entertainment. There are goals in mind.

 

[[0hr]Sunlapse]

I have my own ideoligies, I don't need others'. I interpret the music and let it affect me in whatever ways I see fit for myself. Whether or not the band doesn't care or has some vague elite nihilist meaning blah blah blah whatever, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Chopstick up the Peehole]

I couldn't give a crap about "ideology".....why would I when the main themes of the music I listen to involve such things as corpse-raping, gore-soaked torture and utter depravity?

It's all about the music. If I want philosophy, I'll pick up a book.

 

[Episteme]

It's different with the metal bands you listen to. Obviously if you listen bands with satanic and gore messages you don't really take them seriously(I speak for myself anyway). But bands that have philosophical lyrics like Cynic tend to have a bigger impact on my heart because atop the fantastic innovative music, their lyrics are not what you'd usually expect from a metal band.

The lyrics come a second after the music for me, but I will not listen to a band just for their good lyrics. People should not take metal very seriously overall, it is alright to some point... but when you take gory and satanic lyrics seriously and start basing your philosophy and lifestyle upon them, you're fucking stupid.

 

[polarity]

It's different with the metal bands you listen to. Obviously if you listen bands with satanic and gore messages you don't really take them seriously(I speak for myself anyway). But bands that have philosophical lyrics like Cynic tend to have a bigger impact on my heart because atop the fantastic innovative music, their lyrics are not what you'd usually expect from a metal band.

The lyrics come a second after the music for me, but I will not listen to a band just for their good lyrics. People should not take metal very seriously overall, it is alright to some point... but when you take gory and satanic lyrics seriously and start basing your philosophy and lifestyle upon them, you're fucking stupid.

Lyrics are not the only presence of ideology in metal, nor should they be interpreted solely at face value. Satanic lyrics are quite evidently not meant to be interpreted literally, but are a symbol of anti-Christian sentiment. Gore lyrics could be viewed as a denial of humanism as a valid philosophy. I think there are better symbols to express both concepts, but still, there is meaning there.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Bands driven by an ideology are more likely to be good because they're creating music for a purpose and not for the sake of making music. But, bands with ideology aren't inherently good, nor are bands without ideology inherently bad.

. Beethoven had an idea in mind when he created his masterpieces. It was not just entertainment for him. It transcends, and has importance

Surely his ideas were what made the music good, and not just the fact that he had them, if you see what I mean. I don't understand why some people automatically enjoy bands more due to the ideology, as if it enhances the music itself.

 

[polarity]

I notice a few people are talking of music without ideology. This doesn't exist. Pretty much any creation is the product of some kind of ideology. If the music is created solely for entertainment's sake, then the values behind the work are most likely representative of that (e.g. hedonism, lack of concern for relevance, etc.) All work is communicative of some meaning, regardless of whether it has a "message" or not.

 

[byrne]

I agree with Int.

Idealogy is important .. but not the be all and end all.

For example i tend to steer clear of black metal - i think this genre within metal seems to rely on idealogy and embracing the idealogy seems to be an important part of listening to the music (to me anyhow). this is obviously something i dont want to do.

And just on that, the black metal ideal is more nihilism than mere satanism, although satanism is certainly a popular way to develop this rejection of values. Death metal isnt really characterised or defined by its themes .... nihility is often a theme, but will not define the genre. Death metal as a genre begins with the music itself, rather than ideals.

*appologies for re-entering this debate ... but i feel its relevant here*

 

[Life Sucks]

I do not think that ideology is an integral element of good metal.

 

[the phoenix]

Hmmmm. Well first I should touch on the ideologies of black metal, since they've been brought up. Black metal is not racist, it simply talks about ancient times where racism was prevelent; case in point, a biography of Hitler isn't racist material. Black metal promotes individuality and freedom and, if you wanted to use a political ideology, it would come closest to anarchism. Black metal therefore opposes religion and facism (big misconception that black metal is facist) since these restrict individual freedoms.

But black metal concentrates heavily on emotion. It seeks to carry the listener to another land, a cold, dark, technology-free, mysterious land. And that, IMO, is really the key to good music--emotion. Music can try to promote an ideology, but it can only do so much within the constraints of a song (as opposed to a persuasive essay, etc). All good music, however, attempts to evoke a certain emotion in the listener. The music's inherint ideologies can help the listener interpret the emotion one way or another, but the choice is ultimately individual to each person.

For example, I (and I know that many think this way as well) take black metal to be something positive. That is to say, it takes all these negative themes--death, satan, war, etc--and builds a magical realm on top of all of it. From the bare, primordial essence of life, we can create so much. Now notice that some bands, like Nokturnal Mortum, might promote racism or other misguided beliefs. But their words can only do so much, and the sound of their music, and thus the emotion it creates in me, takes priority and I'm able to enjoy their music according to my way of looking at black metal, not theirs.

Like Speed said, ideologies are individual but music, emotion, is universal. That is to say, all good music evokes a certain emotion in the listener, and this has less to do with perception. We then build on this emotion, creating our own individual views/philosophies that are influenced partly by the band's ideologies but mainly by our own individual views. Therefore, no, ideology is not very important for bands or genres of music to have. It is, however, important for a band to focus on a certain set of emotions, so that their music can come together to a point of focus as opposed to going all over the place. But, this is not ideology.

As a last little note, that's probably one of the reasons I think so highly of black metal--it focuses on emotion so much.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Good post...

 

[King Chaos]

To each his own. Alot of hardcore is driven by facism... so is some punk uke: This almost puts me off, which indicates to me that it does matter, but then again the reason Im put off terror-esque hardcore is baisically because some guy makes clear loud stupid rants abut hating the growing amount of other cultures in his country.

Now black metal Ideologies are understandable, because it is, as said previously, promoting freedom and is very expressive. Members of Dissection may have done things in the past that I would never consider doing but I still think there music rules. So Ultimately I dont think Ideologies matter if the music is ace, you could see it though as a scale where too much Ideology starts becoming omnipresent and tearing the music down... or something like that.

 

[Henrik Main]

Punk and hardcore is left wing music in 99% of the cases..

 

[King Chaos]

Im aware of this... Punk 100% cases, just using examples