What the fuck is with drummers attitudes towards recording?

[PhilR]

The drummer in a local glam rock band was a classic exemplar of this. He used to go on and on about how he likes drums to sound and how he was going to sit on our shoulders making sure he got the best drum sound possible etc etc....

He turned up with some unbelievable piece of shit setup made of 2 entry-level Chinese firewood kits with identical tom sizes. I ended up persuading him to use only 3 rack toms, as I could tune the 2 12" toms to sound okay with descending pitches but there was no way I could do anything with all 4. The two kits didn't even use the same fucking mounting system so he would have been forced to have the toms running 12"-13"-12"-13"-16"-16".

All his cymbals were cheap as dirt brass crap, most with cracks in them. Both kicks had the stock heads and sounded utterly shit no matter how I tuned them. Oh yeah, and he is probably the worst drummer I've ever heard in my entire life. Seriously, all he ever played was 4/4 stock rock beats but he had the worst timekeeping I've ever heard. And couldn't even play a simple AC/DC rhythm without sounding like he was playing the snare with his balls and hitting the cymbals with his face.

The raw recorded sound was akin to a pile of broken glass, boxes of nails and assorted plastic buckets being pounded by a retarded chimpanzee armed with ping-pong bats. And he didn't even play the second kick. Not ONCE.

I should say I've encountered any number of clueless in-screaming vocalists, bassists that didn't even understand why you would ever need to change bass strings and guitar players that thought intonation was some kind of crazy science. But slating drummers is just much more fun. And I am a drummer.

 

[Notuern]

He refuses to sound replace,

I can understand that.

even just to blend,

But not that.

Also, the drummer I'm tracking tomorrow night has now turned around and said he doesn't want his drums "fucked with", even though we discussed trying a few things. Apparently he's one of those drummers who just sets up and plays. Doesn't tune, doesn't think about spacing, or getting the best dynamics. So, what, because I'm not a drummer I'm supposed to just fuckin let him set everything up and hit the big red button?

Why am I there then? And don't say money, because at this rate it ain't fuckin worth it

/rant

Sit down with the guy and explain to him why they hired you, and not just your studio.
But in the end, its down to them to do what they want.. no matter how retarded it may be.. and you are paid to do it for them.

 

[El_Gato]

-1st of all, I sing, play guit/bass, but mostly I consider myself a drummer. And I also record and mix, obviously.

All you are saying can be extrapolated to bassists, vocalists, gui... ok guitar players are, in general, so nerd that it becomes even harder to change their mind when it comes to sound.

-2ndly, You basically have 2 options:

a. Set it out when they contact you. If you told the band such issues in advance, I'm sure there would be no problem.

b. Let them have their sounds unreplaced/unblended. They're paying for you to make the most out of their preferences.

easy huh? maybe not so much but it should be if you're convincing enough.

 

[Axonic Rot]

The thing that I've found works really well for me is to tell a band exactly how I do things before they decide to hire me. I make sure that everyone knows that I work under the conditions I want, or I don't do any work for them.

I haven't had any of these types of problems and it also doesn't seem to affect business negatively.

 

[iHate]

Uhmmm... Don't fucking tell them what your doing?

Dumbasses wont know the difference anyways. I don't let people do anything more than look at the computer screen with all of the nice colors. Don't bring up drumagog or any of that shit, just don't tell them if it's going to be like that. Do you let them watch you mix? That's gotta be awkward. "Uh... yea, im just uh... tuning your fucking shit voice and snapping your guitars to the grid cause you blow. And your drummer sucks bawls, shit can't even be edited." That should shut them up.

 

[ahjteam]

For the longest time he didnt even know how triggers worked, he thought that they were tiny microphones

...and that is what they are. small piezo microphones.

 

[Line666]

Uhmmm... Don't fucking tell them what your doing?

Dumbasses wont know the difference anyways. I don't let people do anything more than look at the computer screen with all of the nice colors. Don't bring up drumagog or any of that shit

Yup, just keeping your mouth shut negates many of these problems.

I've programmed drums for drummers that were awful before, sample replaced everything and just never told them I did it, they think it's them and they're awesome, I get to laugh behind their backs and keep a clean product. Simples.

If they ask about a particular drum sound I'll just say I eq'd something funny as an experiment and flip it back to something more familiar to them, I never give them the impression I'm cutting huge swathes of their tracks up or replacing their "sound" because most people are sensitive little angels, musicians especially and its counter productive. I just give the impression that "editing" is like "mastering" - it's there to make everything sound awesome. Ignorance for them is bliss for both parties.

This way the process is like "magic" not like "cheating".

 

[Glenn Fricker]

If it's your session, you're calling the shots, not the drummer.

A little bit a knowledge is dangerous, and a drummer with a little bit of knowledge is like handing an automatic weapon to a toddler.

You must stress the fact that what works on stage doesn't always work in the studio. What he's used to might be fine for his sister's birthday party, but you're attempting a professional product & he needs to step up his game. Challenging his ego can work to your advantage.

"Oh, I thought you said you were good? Because right now, you're sounding like a whiny little bitch who's not willing to put in the effort to make a great record." Seriously, they eat that shit up.

When it comes to mixing/editing drums, there's one simple, easy to follow rule: Don't tell the drummer what you're up to.

This means he's not around during the editing or mixing of drums. Time align/sample replace/bring in a session drummer, it doesn't matter. Your job is to get something good coming out of the speakers, not to cater to his ego.

Have him come in close to final mixes, once you've got things sounding good, and leave one small, easily fixable flaw that's painfully obvious. He'll comment on it, you'll fix it & he'll be happy because he made a contribution.

I recorded a group earlier this year, and followed this simple plan. I time-aligned the hell out of the drums & the drummer commented during final mixes, "Man, I really kicked ass on this record!"

All I could think was, "Yeah, in your fucking dreams."

But, they're coming back for another album next year. They've already booked.

So, not only did I make the band happy with the first record, I've got more work coming my way because I've learned to keep my mouth shut.

I guess it comes down to this: If you don't give the drummer a chance to let his ego get in the way, you won't have problems from him. Learning when to anticipate these issues & closing them off before they become a problem can save you a lot of grief.

-0z-

 

[GarethSE]

If someone ever edited my drums or sample replaced them I would fuck them up.
But I'm not about to be playing metal on drums any time soon, and I'm not about to be getting any recordings with me playing engineered by anyone other than myself any time soon either, so I guess I have nothing to offer to this topic.

I dunno though, you can make all the drummer jokes you like, but the whole point of drums in the first place is channeling something primal and tribal into your playing, big driving beats. People who are more naturally inclined towards rhythms become drummers, whether stupid as fuck or intelligent, it makes no difference.

I know with my playing, all the hits that are slightly off still give some sort of feeling and push and pull to the groove. These bits of "sloppiness" that most view as mistakes I view as something that was meant to come out in my playing at that exact moment and thus I feel I shouldn't fuck with them. It's not always about the ego.
But I guess I play fucking jazz, and not metalcore, so who gives a fuck about what I say?

But still, I felt I should offer up some sort of alternative viewpoint.

 

[drew_drummer]

Why would it though? Why would a drummer magazine have to talk about editing drums? "This is what AEs have to go through because you suck"?

The same reason you'll see Computer Music or Sound On Sound covering areas outside of their prescribed field.

Context.

 

[drew_drummer]

These bits of "sloppiness" that most view as mistakes I view as something that was meant to come out in my playing at that exact moment and thus I feel I shouldn't fuck with them.

That's absolutely fine G. But then those drummers shouldn't join a tech death metal band. They should be playing in a stoner rock band or a Fugazi wannabe.

 

[GarethSE]

Gorguts - Nostalgia, a track off one of the most respected tech death albums ever
Listen to the goddamn kick drums in the "chorus"

SLOP SLOP SLOP SLOP
still fucking perfect

 

[Melb_shredder]

^^^ You're right. But at some point, the line got blurred between something being the norm and *well duh he's human* to the point of *Did you hear that off kick? he's shit*
And yeah it's ridiculous... but you have to make a choice! deal with it or ditch. At this point.. who would dare put out an album *good album* with untight unsampled drums???

 

[GarethSE]

Many, many, many bands, but they don't get the marketing and advertising behind them.
I bet if a nation of 13 year olds was told to listen to Portal by kerrang because it's the next big thing, they'd lap it up

 

[The Unavoidable]

There is a big difference between doing something raw with a little bit of human slop, and flat out playing off time and being so sloppy you can barely make out what the fuck it's supposed to be. Example: NSV by Cryptopsy. Drums are raw as fuck, and you can clearly hear how the blast beats vary in intensity as they go along and some of the fills just barely manage to hold it together. But nothing is out of time, and you can clearly hear what he is playing at all times.


Not like some drummers I've seen around here. They are the ones it's about in the OP

 

[xFkx]

Gareth, disagree with you I must

I bet gene hooglan is playing with the same freedom, and ease that your are speaking off most of the time (I guess excluding the borderline inhuman parts he has from time to time), but the difference is that he put countless ours into practice so that his "ease" is on time.

 

[DanLights]

I´m on the OP, xKFx and unavoidable´s side. That is all

 

[updog]

The same reason you'll see Computer Music or Sound On Sound covering areas outside of their prescribed field.

Context.

I don't think so. The magazines you mentioned sometimes cover areas outside of their prescribed field because the readers are interested and will benefit from reading it. Mostly, they have to in order to do their job well (like general maintenance to drums, tuning them etc.) because drummers are lazy-ass fucks who think you've got magic powers. I'm saying this as a drummer, I know solutions must be made for the sake of the recording these days but I can totally relate to what these drummers in question are about

I do agree though that drummer magazines should cover stuff like this to such extent that they actually know what it is and understand why samples and replacing are being used, so it won't come off as a surprise, leaving everything to be explained by the AE.

 

[Everybody]

im pretty sure when i recorded i was pretty willing to do anything...move my kit around to make it better for the mics, move cymbals up, even tho it threw off my playing a little bit.

but i can understand (to a degree) why people are like that. theyre scared. they are scared cause they arent that good, and when you make them change, its like youre calling them out on it saying what theyre doing isnt good enough, and they (being self concious) get angry. thats all it really is.

kind of like when i ask guitarist to do some guitar sections riff by riff, when they say they can play it just fine. I know they can. I really do, but for the sake of having it sound the cleanest and best I can, I just would rather do it this way. But they think im saying theyre not good enough to play their own music, and they get pissed.

just a matter of insecurity

 

[Lowberg]

...and that is what they are. small piezo microphones.

yes, when you quote half of my sentence and take it out of context.

(like instrument microphones) and that the sound produced by the module was his actual bass drum

He had no idea it triggered samples, he thought the "triggered" sound was actually audio of his bass drums