What's the Sym X album you hate the most?

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

I miss the modulation of vocal sections that the band displayed on previous records. This was rarely evident on Iconoclast, but it was on all their other releases (including even a few times on Paradise Lost). Subtly shifting the key of the song adds much more flavor to it, and can be done so well that the listener often doesn't realize it's happening. Take Accolade II, for example. On a first listen, would you be able to tell that the second verse is a half step lower than the first, or that the third chorus is a half step higher than the first two? THAT'S good songwriting.

This trait has spoiled me so much that I often find songs with three choruses that are all in the same key quite boring.

Those are the types of things I love.
I try to incorporate those ideas into songs I write in Guitar Pro, haha.

Take Rediscovery, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xyycpgmu_w


2:11, drums playing in 4/4. 8:55, drums playing in 3/4. It's such a great way to change the feel. That's good song-writing.

 

[anonym115]

Are you sure those times are correct? Those take me to two unrelated parts of the song.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

Are you sure those times are correct? Those take me to two unrelated parts of the song.

8:57 maybe? Sections are the same in many ways, but made to sound different.
Keyboard at 2:11 and vocals at 8:57 are essentially the same, but the sections are in different keys.
The main thing I was pointing out is the rhythm:
x x x x . . x x x x . .
-at 2:11, (S for snare) it goes: x x s x . . s x x x s . (this creates the illusion of 4/4)
-at 8:57, it goes: x x x x s . x x x x s . (this emphasises the timing of 3)

The rhythms are the same between the two parts, but the snare drum shift changes the feel completely. This is why people love V so much. Even if you don't recognize these types of things up front, your subconscious does.

 

[anonym115]

I think there is something wrong with the timings. I have V imported directly into iTunes from CD, and when I go to 8:57 in Rediscovery Part 2, there are not only no vocals, but it sounds nothing like 2:11.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, you were using the YouTube version :Spin: I think the second one could be interpreted as 3/8 or a slow 4/4. Nonetheless a cool change. Too bad I just cannot get into Rediscovery

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

I think there is something wrong with the timings. I have V imported directly into iTunes from CD, and when I go to 8:57 in Rediscovery Part 2, there are not only no vocals, but it sounds nothing like 2:11.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, you were using the YouTube version :Spin: I think the second one could be interpreted as 3/8 or a slow 4/4. Nonetheless a cool change. Too bad I just cannot get into Rediscovery

Yeah, haha. The link... links... the two tracks together!

It's 6/8, which is the same thing as 3/4 (and no different than 3/8 in terms of how it sounds... though you wouldn't normally label something 3/8). It's 3/4 at 2:11, too, but the snare drum creates a sort-of polyrhythm with a 4/4 feel.

 

[Detective Beauregard]

I love their polymetrics. There's an interview with LePond a few years back where the says he believes the key to playing in odd meters is to make them not feel like odd meters, which is exactly what Rullo does! He additionally states that when he joined the band he had never played to their level of complexity before, and that he tried not to count the odd meters and instead relied on feeling them.

How are 6/8 and 3/4 the same thing? One of my favorite things to do is to take a riff in 3/4 and play it in 6/8; the snare timing makes it sound like a completely different riff!

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

I love their polymetrics. There's an interview with LePond a few years back where the says he believes the key to playing in odd meters is to make them not feel like odd meters, which is exactly what Rullo does! He additionally states that when he joined the band he had never played to their level of complexity before, and that he tried not to count the odd meters and instead relied on feeling them.

How are 6/8 and 3/4 the same thing? One of my favorite things to do is to take a riff in 3/4 and play it in 6/8; the snare timing makes it sound like a completely different riff!

The time signatures are identical. How you phrase them, where your accents fall, etc., are just creative choices.

You're probably thinking of when you group 8th notes into 3s and give the illusion that you're playing triplets, or vice-versa (taking triplets and grouping them in 4s to sound like 8ths/16ths/quarters, etc.).
You can consider these effects tempo changes, depending where the pulse of the song is for you.

Some people consider 6/8 and 3/4 different, but to me, that's just semantics. You can label the time signature as one over the other simply based on a more accurate way of describing how the riff sounds to you, but I find that kind of labelling pointless. Each bar in both sigs fit six 8th notes, or three quarter notes, or one dotted half note, and so on no matter what.

 

[anonym115]

Ah geez, now I look like a music noob. I meant 6/8 of course, not 3/8.

I agree that 6/8 is different than 3/4 for sure. They are the same timing wise, but the rhythm groove is different. It's all about the "feel" of the main ticks.

I'm also glad someone brought up the idea of making time signatures natural sounding. SX is the only band to date that does this well IMO. Generally when I am listening to an odd time to them, I don't even notice it until much later, because it just feels like the correct signature for the part. A huge factor in this success is that the melodies over the top are made to sound incomplete until the last part of the bar, either lyrically, musically, or both.

One example that always comes to mind, for some reason, is the closing section of Set the World on Fire. It just sounds so 4/4 to me every time!

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

6/8 and 3/4 are the same.
Saying that they're not just limits creativity, because it implies that certain bars have to be played certain ways.
Anything in 6/8 will sound identical in 3/4 when at the same tempo.
No difference at all, guys.

Porcupine Tree Sound of Musak masks that's it's in 7/4 very well.
Dark Suns Free of You masks 13 nicely as well.

 

[anonym115]

Lots of really good musicians would disagree with you there.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

Lots of really good musicians would disagree with you there.

All a time signature signifies is the length of time the bar is.
6/8 at 120bpm is 1.5 seconds long, just like 3/4 would be.
There is really no difference.

 

[anonym115]

I'm saying there are people who would say that, given a certain bar, especially within the context of a given song, it would be correct to label that bar 6/8 or 3/4 over the other.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

I'm saying there are people who would say that, given a certain bar, especially within the context of a given song, it would be correct to label that bar 6/8 or 3/4 over the other.

I can accept that

 

[Detective Beauregard]

Yes, Gentleman - 3/4 and 6/8 are the same mathematically. However, the accents (or beats) in 6/8 lie on dotted quarter or dotted eighth notes, whereas they lie on straight quarter or eighth notes in 3/4. Thus, they're different.

A great example of this is the first verse of Prometheus (I Am Alive). The first eight measures are in 6/8, but then Rullo switches to a straight time (it could be written as 3/4 but it's technically 6/4). Even though LePond and crew are playing the exact same riff throughout, Rullo makes it sound like a completely different groove.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

I find labeling a time signature based on where accents fall to be a strange concept that limits creativity, so I've never been a fan.
I get the difference, I just don't utilize it.
There are so many different ways to accent each time signature and create illusions. What if I want to accent every 4 8th note triplets? Am I going to label it 3/3 or something? Maybe there's already a preferred sig for this scenario and I'm unaware...
What if I'm playing in 15/16, but I'm accenting every 5 16th notes?
You'd think I was playing quints until the song changed to 4/4... but then maybe you'd think I did a tempo change instead.

That change in Prometheus is great. Always loved it.

 

[Adam Fiske]

Interesting viewpoint. I think Heretic is probably the best written and most seamless song on the album, save for the switch back to half-time after the solo. Sure, it's extra aggressive, but in this song it actually works. Prometheus is another one of my favorites, due to the "mad science" lyrics and polymetric verses. Bastards is a fun Dio-like song but definitely is nowhere near the band's top tier, and Lords of Chaos leaves little to be desired (although I still prefer it to Light up the Night).

After thinking about this more, I really do quite like Prometheus and Lords of Chaos, I was just trying to think up a way to tighten up the album. I do still skip Bastards and Heretic, probably the first two SyX songs that I regularly skip on an album. I will admit that the Heretic solo is a great one (the album has some of Romeo's best on End of Innocence, Dehumanized and Heretic) So what I'd actually do, which is probably grossly the unpopular opinion, is drop those two and Iconoclast itself. I have never really been able to get into the song, and while there are a plethora of cool parts in it, I always find myself waiting for it to be over so I can get to The End of Innocence, which itself would be a great album opener. The album still needs a second spot to slow down, most likely between Lords of Chaos (which fades out, perfect entry for a ballad) and Reign in Madness. The album really has tons of great stuff, it's just also overstuffed.

 

[anonym115]

I made a playlist yesterday consisting of my 3 favorite songs from each album, and my 4 favorite songs from my favorite 3 albums, was shocked to find Prometheus making the cut from Iconoclast. I always knew I enjoyed it a lot, but never compared it to the other songs on the album.

 

[Alien Mantis]

This is a stupid poll. I don't HATE any Symphony X album.

Symphony X has never put out a bad album. Ever.
They are only varying degrees of epic greatness.

 

[Evileddie]

Dunno, its probably just me then, but I personally found that to be amazing. I like swearing in metal, and I like loudness, and while I can appreciate keyboard presence, it's not necessarily bothering me that it's not there.

I'm a relatively new Sym X fan, which might explain why - I am attracted to newer albums more. For me PL and Iconoclast are like brother and sister, if that makes sense.

But we all listen to what we like, and overlook what we hate, that's life, in a nutshell. and I can understand the criticism of that album now, sort of.

I agree with that, as a new Symphony X fan I admit to being drawn to the newer stuff. I think Iconoclast is awesome and so is Underworld, I haven't voted for a worst Album yet as I haven't given them all a proper chance yet

 

[Matt]

I re-listened to Iconoclast on a road trip recently, and aside from the title track its just full of old recycled riffs and boring ideas.