When did you stop believing in god?

[John_C]

you have the "freedom of speech"
we have the "freedom of killing" now STFU

What the actual fuck? Please say you're joking...

 

[drew_drummer]

A few piece of shit Muslims killed because of cartoons. Just like a few piece of shit metalheads went around burning churches and some even eat each other. It doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, just like not all metalheads are bad. You are doing exactly what Disney is doing to us metalheads -- punishing an entire group for the actions of few.

All the Muslims I've met were good people, very kind and selfless. Not once has one come up to me and suggested anything about religion. I don't understand why you would hate them so much as to post that shit.

STFU bellend. I already acknowledge that not all Muslims are like that. But it wasn't a few piece of shit Muslims, there were protests in the THOUSANDS. Get your fucking facts straight.

Yet again, GGI failing to grasp basic realities.

 

[Line666]

 

[Jind]

I think this really cuts to the heart of it. Call it what you will, being an example, having a sense of duty, having principles, the end result is the same.

I don't think that publishing a cartoon of a fictious character should result in hysteria, mass protest, looting, and murder. I am willing to offend the sensibilities of those who think this sort of reaction is acceptable - I believe it is not, and to say so through any sort of active discourse is not the same level of intolerance as you're imply.

It is a reaction to intolerance. It wouldn't happen if these people stopped trying to force everyone to adhere to their ridiculous notions. Paint it as bigotted and intolerant if you like, but I really don't see what is so offensive about a fucking image.

Case in point - I remember Carlos taking a picture of me and putting my head on Michael Stipes body. It was jokes, and I laughed. But even if I didn't, I wouldn't call for him to be murdered.

Once again - your making my point!

Because you don't find it offensive you care not that some may. You also use someone combining an image of your head and Michael Stipes body as a joke as an equivalency. Were you offended? No? I suspect not as most people would not by generally non-cultural humor. Nor do I suspect that Carlos had any ill intent by posting it.

However - in defending the image you've added more to it than the right to free speech, you've added justification of it being more than just a joke or humor - but hey, your the one who thinks I see it as "bigotted and intolerant".

PS, I'm not the one defending the equivalency of humor for the sake of humor one minute and a serious commentary the next.

I'm all for people taking a stand, but don''t try to soften the message nor the messenger with something you found non-offensive and equating it to something someone else clearly might find offensive - we all have soft spots, your head on Michael Stipes body clearly is not one of them

Being completely honest, I have no dog in this fight and tend to play "devils advocate" sometimes simply to see where someone stands on a subject, to see where logic starts to twist and turn into the resulting stance. I'm dead serious about how I feel on the threads subject and also my opinions on extremism and the ease in which any stance can quickly become stupidly extreme and destructive. I also find that painting with broad brush strokes tends to undermine the argument at hand.

But it's also true that I'm also poking the dead body with a stick just a little bit because it's interesting

 

[Jind]

STFU bellend. I already acknowledge that not all Muslims are like that. But it wasn't a few piece of shit Muslims, there were protests in the THOUSANDS. Get your fucking facts straight.

Yet again, GGI failing to grasp basic realities.

Wow - THOUSANDS!!!!

Hmm - wait a second, aren't there 1.6 billion Muslims in the world? That's a real representative group you've got there don't you?

OK, now I'm just being snarky.

Yet again, GGI failing to grasp basic realities.

Oh the irony.....

 

[John_C]

STFU bellend. I already acknowledge that not all Muslims are like that. But it wasn't a few piece of shit Muslims, there were protests in the THOUSANDS. Get your fucking facts straight.

Yet again, GGI failing to grasp basic realities.

Given that there are ~ 1.57 billion muslims in the world, I'd say you'd need more than thousands of protesters to make any generalisation about Islam or its followers.

Having said that, there is a tendency towards ridiculous overreaction to offence in certain Muslim sects, which definitely deserves to be challenged, as you correctly point out.

 

[Mashreef]

All the Muslims I've met were good people, very kind and selfless. Not once has one come up to me and suggested anything about religion. I don't understand why you would hate them so much as to post that shit.

Dude exactly..
thats what happens every fucking time.. for one the whole group has to suffer

 

[John_C]

Dude exactly..
thats what happens every fucking time.. for one the whole group has to suffer

"you have the "freedom of speech"
we have the "freedom of killing" now STFU"

You're not exactly sounding like one of the good people suffering because the bad few, are you?

 

[Mashreef]

my country is in a civil war
what do you expect?

 

[Terminus]

Would read again, and may do so in a few months to a year.

 

[Jind]

Having said that, there is a tendency towards ridiculous overreaction to offence in certain Muslim sects, which definitely deserves to be challenged, as you correctly point out.

Extremism should be challenged most certainly but it's also important not to lump the majority in with the minority.

Hey I live in a country where 49 percent of republicans still think President Obama is a Muslim from Kenya, yet I still have level headed, intelligent conservative friends. It's clear that a false message repeated enough will become a truth for some - a la extremist beliefs.

 

[Sweetnothing]

This thread reminds me the wise words my father once said.

"If you want a peaceful dinner, never talk about sports, politics or religion"

 

[kass]

You guys are proposing a strange moral equivalency here.

Is it rude to post that cartoon? Sure.
It is intollerant? Sure, in a soft sense.

Is it the same kind of intollerance that religion often brings? Fuck no. The intollerance that we talk about with religion is real oppression. Atheists don't want to use the legal system to oppress anyone. I can't throw a rock in my town without hitting a religious nut who wants to do that very thing.

The intollerance of some atheists is simply not the same as the intollerance stemming from religion. Quit acting like it is.

 

[kass]

Extremism should be challenged most certainly but it's also important not to lump the majority in with the minority.

Hey I live in a country where 49 percent of republicans still think President Obama is a Muslim from Kenya, yet I still have level headed, intelligent conservative friends. It's clear that a false message repeated enough will become a truth for some - a la extremist beliefs.

You are correct, but some people (like me) think that irrational beliefs and thought processes are worthy of ridicule. That doesn't mean that I lump most religious people in with extremism. Its just that irrationality is a fucking menace to society, whether or not a specific belief actually brings harm to me.

Would you have rushed to defend some 2012 mayan apocalypse moron if he was being made fun of? I doubt it, although he would never harm anyone with that belief. This kind of stupidity should be ridiculed, IMO. If you disagree, I understand.

 

[Jind]

You guys are proposing a strange moral equivalency here.

Is it rude to post that cartoon? Sure.
It is intollerant? Sure, in a soft sense.

Is it the same kind of intollerance that religion often brings? Fuck no. The intollerance that we talk about with religion is real oppression. Atheists don't want to use the legal system to oppress anyone. I can't throw a rock in my town without hitting a religious nut who wants to do that very thing.

The intollerance of some atheists is simply not the same as the intollerance stemming from religion. Quit acting like it is.

Not really the point I'm making nor the equivalency I speak of - intolerance possibly breeds extremism is my point regardless of the source material. The equivalency I was referring to was someone referencing something they clearly were not offended by trying to equate that particular image to something someone else expressed finding offensive.

Disagreeing with any opinion can be healthy for debate and change. Hell, I love debate as should be readily obvious, I just feel that if you have to result to insults you've lost some of the edge a good point may have had.

As for your last sentence - I'm on board with the idea that "organized" (small disclaimer on my part) religion seeks to separate us but lean more in the Ghandi view of it when he supposedly said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians" which gets to the heart of how I feel (not the Christ part - just the sentimentality it expresses).

 

[Jind]

This kind of stupidity should be ridiculed, IMO. If you disagree, I understand.

I suspect I've said a lot of stupid shit in my life, I certainly hope that's not the only thing people judge me on

 

[drew_drummer]

Ah whatever. It's clear there is no common ground here. I don't really desire to kowtow towards someone elses religious beliefs. I just couldn't give a shit.

Posting a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head is an attack towards the ideology; not the people. If someone wants to take that soooooooooo personally, because their faith means so much to them, then to me they deserve ridicule and insult. I just don't give a fuck anymore. I'm so tired of living in a world where irrational assholes get to dictate to the rest of society what the fucking score is - I've had enough of that shit.

 

[kass]

I suspect I've said a lot of stupid shit in my life, I certainly hope that's not the only thing people judge me on

lol same here.


I have best friends who are religious and they know I don't respect their religious beliefs. We're great friends either way.


For the record, I agree with you about the insults. If you are right, you dont need them as long as the other person agrees that sound thinking is actually a good thing. That often is not the case. What do you say to a man who believes in Santa Clause except that he's a fool? Appealing to rationality does not work. If it did, he likely wouldn't believe in Santa Clause in the first place.

 

[Terminus]

I'd like to believe some kid is reading this thread somewhere in the world and it made that kid stop believing in god. Good deed done for the day, gents.

 

[Jind]

What do you say to a man who believes in Santa Clause except that he's a fool?

What are you trying to tell me? No Santa? That can't be. My best friend the Easter Bunny is having dinner with him this Sunday - celebrating the resurrection and all