Which 4x12?

Bob Savage said:
If I were to have only one speaker type to use for recording, it would be the V30. I've heard this harsh midrange theory from several people, but I just can't figure it out. I've used V30's with the following amps, and had excellent results:

82 Marshall JMP2203
THD Univalve
THD Bivalve
THD Flexi-50
Mesa Dual Rectifier
Bogner Ecstasy Classic
Bogner Uberschall
Bogner Shiva
Mesa MKIII

And some others I'm forgetting... Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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If i may put a noob perspective on this. what i was starting out amps always sounded better to me when i was scooping the mids out. As i got more experienced playing live and recording i had started to realise when i was pulling mids all i was doing was sucking out all the TONE. Nowadays i realise Live VS Studio your not going to get the same EXACT sound. Live you can get away with scooping a little more. But in a studio situation when you need the guitar to fit into a MIX with a million other instruments and EQ peaks and Valleys you need those mids to stand out more.

Now im not saying noo ears it why its like this. I think it comes down to guitarists trying to get the tones of their heros on the CD's. With all the other instruments, EQ, compression, Sub harmonic exciters, limiters, bla bla bla ..... The end result coming out an the recording is different then what went in.

The low end sensation hat seems to be going on today i think comes more from the bass players in these nu-metal bands, just doubling guitar lines and adding Sub Harmonic generators. Kids at home dont know this so they tend to PUSH the low end in an insane way. Then when they hit the studio they do the same and wonder why their mix sounds like ass.

Just a theory from my noob ass :p
 
i've been running my powerball through a framus dragon, and a genz benz g-flex 2x12. 2 great cabs in my opinion
 
guitarguru777 said:
If i may put a noob perspective on this. what i was starting out amps always sounded better to me when i was scooping the mids out. As i got more experienced playing live and recording i had started to realise when i was pulling mids all i was doing was sucking out all the TONE. Nowadays i realise Live VS Studio your not going to get the same EXACT sound. Live you can get away with scooping a little more. But in a studio situation when you need the guitar to fit into a MIX with a million other instruments and EQ peaks and Valleys you need those mids to stand out more.

Now im not saying noo ears it why its like this. I think it comes down to guitarists trying to get the tones of their heros on the CD's. With all the other instruments, EQ, compression, Sub harmonic exciters, limiters, bla bla bla ..... The end result coming out an the recording is different then what went in.

The low end sensation hat seems to be going on today i think comes more from the bass players in these nu-metal bands, just doubling guitar lines and adding Sub Harmonic generators. Kids at home dont know this so they tend to PUSH the low end in an insane way. Then when they hit the studio they do the same and wonder why their mix sounds like ass.

Just a theory from my noob ass :p
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That's all interesting, but what your point is as it pertains to my post?
 
Take it from Paul Gilbert:

pink.green.jpg


"9 Cabinets really do sound better than just one!"
 
About a year ago I had this same problem "which cab to buy?". Money wasn't the issue, I was loking for the best. I tried about a dozen of different cabs with a triple rec., for example Marshall mode four(v30's), Peavey(Sheffield1200's), Randall(v30's), Engl(v30's), Framus(v25's) and Mesa(v30's). Mesa was by far the best. It even made a shitty valvestate sound like a decent amp. Every amp I plug in to it has sounded atleast decent, or pretty god damn fine.

Next cab I buy is a second mesa.
 
this past weekend i finally heard the engl fireball through a standard size mesa cab. Awesome ! No harsh/bright sounding like the marshall 1960a i´m used to listen.
 
Bob Savage said:
That's all interesting, but what your point is as it pertains to my post?
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You were talking about how some people percieve amps to have a HARSH midrangey sound.

Let me see if i can make my point more directly.....

As a Noob trying to play metal you think mids suck and scooping them sound better to a noob ear....

Ok there it is cut and dry.
 
guitarguru777 said:
You were talking about how some people percieve amps to have a HARSH midrangey sound.

Let me see if i can make my point more directly.....

As a Noob trying to play metal you think mids suck and scooping them sound better to a noob ear....

Ok there it is cut and dry.
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Dude, I think you meant to reply to 'Fragle's post. Bob Savage likes mids.
 
Dude, i also like mids - if i didn't i'd not use marshalls and a 5150 as they are very midrangey amps no matter what you do. my point just is that in a live setting playing through a cab with v30s speakers does not sound as good to my ears as the "inferior" 1960A/B. this i know from personal experience and not just internet rumors. maybe (or likely) studio recording is a totally different animal. i don't know, i haven't professionally recorded anything (yet). for live use, give me 75w celestions! ! !
by the way, it's not that i GENERALLY hate v30s. in fact, when i still had my engl blackmore head i thought it sounded a lot better when played through v30s in contrast to the 75w celestions. but that's due to the lack of midrange the blackmore as well as most engls have. that's why i said YMMV when looking for a cab to go with a fireball.
the way i look at it is this. take the jcm 800 2210 as an example:
the amp is a bit short on the bottom end unless you crank it way up (which i don't). there's a HUGE amount of mids no matter how you EQ it, especially at high volumes when the EL34s add even more midrange compression. it has a good bit of highs that seem to roll off earlier than e.g. mesa's do, meaning that the high end isn't as "high" as on other amps. in short words, the frequencies on this amp look like an inverted U .
now, what i think is that v30s speakers have a slight bottom end roll off coupled with a boatload of high mids and highs. add this to our inverted U and you get a super wide inverted U.
in contrast to that, the 75w celestions seem to be slightly scooped in character, meaning that they have a good bit of bottom end, some of the mids dipped out and also quite some highs. couple this once again with the inverted U and the frequencies are much more balanced and even.
on the other hand, when using e.g. a fireball which has a lot of bass and highs with little mids (and yeeees, you can add some by cranking the mid pot, but i'm talking about the basic voicing of the amp) using v30s can balance the lack of mids out and rolls of some of the bottom end resulting in a more cutting tone with a tighter bottom end.

but then again, IIRC andy used a 5150 with a v30 loaded cab for enemy of god, so what i wrote above is likely different for a recording situation.
on an interesting sidenote, i'm quite sure that the haunted use v30 loaded cabs live together with 5150 heads. what i know for fact is that they scoop the mids almost to 0 when playing live (read their forum), so go figure.
 
After much consideration, I've more or less decided to go for a Trad Mesa 4x12 cab after all, despite the high price. One problem though. There is a dealer here in sweden where I can get a fairly good price, and they have it in and everything, so I could just go there and pick it up.

BUT! (of course, there always is one...)

It's slanted. He also checked their stock and apparently they don't even keep the straight one in stock at all, "you can't get it in sweden" were his exact words. So I'd like to ask you guys if you still think this would be ok for me. Would I be experiencing any special problems? Or should I just not go for it? I'd really love to have this 4x12 and I'd rather not settle for second best just because it's more convenient....
 
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