why is sex immoral?

[somnium_in_tenebris]

@Siderea it's my fault cos i explained in a haste(i was late for my rendez-vous )

I meant that there are different angles,from which one can regard an issue.One angle (that represent complete perfection),is the one of Plato,that talked about the World of Ideas,in which every object,every meaning existed in its finest&ideal form.and he said that what we,people see,is but shadows of these "perfect" objects of the World of Ideas.

So,sex,as a natural act by itself,stripped from anything else,is a blessed act,not immoral at all,cos its the reason we all live here.(that is the platonic aspect,the perfect version of things)

The "realistic" version of things tho,suggests that as sex is bound with Man(its an instinct),it shall follow human standards.and humans become corrupted when they gain power.big fish eats the smaller one.then i said that if humans were created as balanced and pre-programed beings(no power of thinking,of desiring,of being corrupted),we would all think the same,have the same intentions,all be equal,everything "perfect",we would all live in the world of Ideas(Paradise).

but because we live on earth and humans need a leash,cos them nature knows no limit(greed),laws and "morals" were created by the "wiser" ones and human nature was restricted,in order to prevent self-destruction and form communities.

that is why sex is "immoral",its one of the restrictions in human nature,laws are better than the old days but still there are big gaps that allow monstrosities...

i am against total freedom(it never did no good),but i am for "promotion" of healthy human relationships,love between men and women,promotion of sexual education in schools(those taboos must be abolished)and promotion of harmonic family planning.

and yeah,ok,trying to explain,again i wrote a sociology text damn

@siderea i hope i covered you now

@mehdi i think ancient philosophers are more timely and all time classics than most recent thinkers and in the particular situation Plato fit.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

i dont believe in human nature, gather ten of your mates and youll get 10 different natures.

 

[somnium_in_tenebris]

you mean 10 characters.nature is a totally different thing.all men have mutual resultants.internal and external characteristics.internal:instincts,external:morphological characteristics(2 eyes 2 ears blah)

just my opinion tho.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

human nature noun
the natural ways of behaving that most people share:
You can't change human nature.
It's only human nature (= It is natural) to want the best for your children.

nature noun
Someone's nature is their character:
As a child Juliana had a lovely nature - everyone liked her.
[+ to infinitive] It's not really in her nature to be aggressive.
He is by nature inclined to be rather lazy.

human nature is more like obvious instincts etc. but everyones nature is made of different things like greed for exemple, like some people are greedy, some arent, some people are talkative, some arent, some people are honest, some arent. i dont believe that human nature is greedy, i know some people who arent greedy at all. and then again, your nature leads your way to behave in a general way but sometimes you stray for that path and behave in a different way, like even if youre generally not greedy for instance, you might behave in a greedy way on some occasions. so calling human nature greedy just doesnt make sense at all. blaming human nature and other people is a good way to deny ones own mistakes and that.

 

[Allan]

:Spin: :Spin: :Spin: Maybe sex isn't so simple after all :Spin: :Spin: :Spin:

I believe I have two ears as well though.

"Celebrate, terrify me, don't mystify your love"

 

[Strangelight]

Sex is for procreation. Period

Seriously though, it is like.

 

[Light]

what about amateurs

 

[Su Jacko]

The only true god of man is Greed.Power corrupts man and twists his mind.If everythinfg was considered as moral,then all evil would be legal.What De Sade wrote would multiply with 100.At least now,theoritically,there is a skin deep limit to all this.

The law, at best is a rough guide line to morality because, as we all know, it does not stop innocent people from suffering.

it is utopian to talk about sex in its finest meaning of.Like Plato would do.this is not immoral,its the more blessed action ever.if everything was balance d and perfect then everything would be the same and wed live in paradise.

To me balance has nothing to do with perfection. Balance is death and life, hope and despair even down to day and night. It's a nature thing too. That's not to say I wouldn't like the wealth of the world to be more balanced

but we live on earth.and according to the nature of man(as i see it),things should be controlled(even typically),cos otherwise we will be destroyed earlier than we normally would.

what sol said "why broadcast mutilated bodies instead of cocks"is groundless like if someone said "why wealth isnt equally shared?".im sad to admit,but its all about greed.

 

[rafael]

Err.. I haven't read through all the posts, but I "answer" to the original one.

Me thinks sex is not a bad thing, but it may be emotionally devastating... and the reason why it's a big deal in the medias is because they don't have anything else to write to about.

 

[Strangelight]

Err.. I haven't read through all the posts, but I "answer" to the original one.

Me thinks sex is not a bad thing, but it may be emotionally devastating... and the reason why it's a big deal in the medias is because they don't have anything else to write to about.

what about war, murder, petty crime, fraud, marriage, sport, tv/films, music, stock market, history, fashion, technology etc?

 

[rafael]

Don't get me starting

(check your inbox btw )

 

[somnium_in_tenebris]

nature noun
Someone's nature is their character:
As a child Juliana had a lovely nature - everyone liked her.
[+ to infinitive] It's not really in her nature to be aggressive.
He is by nature inclined to be rather lazy.

its groundless using a simple dictionary against a theory.no sense at all.

human nature is more like obvious instincts etc. but everyones nature is made of different things like greed for exemple, like some people are greedy, some arent, some people are talkative, some arent, some people are honest, some arent.

thats called idiosyncracy,character.and its just one meaning of the word"nature".at least in greek.

i dont believe that human nature is greedy, i know some people who arent greedy at all.

why do you stick to the surface?greed is not necessarily bad.for me its part of the self-preservance instinct.the reason why we evolved,why we dont still live in caves,why we want to be better,why we fight for what we fight.Greed is bad when connected with power,money,envy ,voluptuousness.Plato(again)had a clever story to tell.About Gigis and the magic ring that made you invisible.anyone?

and then again, your nature leads your way to behave in a general way but sometimes you stray for that path and behave in a different way, like even if youre generally not greedy for instance, you might behave in a greedy way on some occasions.

That has to do with the level of Virtue one has achieved and the hierarchic structures of one's Values(targets,purposes).thats why some people are called "wiser" and others" swept over by the waves".

so calling human nature greedy just doesnt make sense at all.

it does for me.i see it a basic intinct.Like the one for food,shelter,sociality,procreation,self-preservance etc

blaming human nature and other people is a good way to deny ones own mistakes and that.

That would fit for a "vineyard-philosopher".Who said i count myself out of this?its like saying"m dad beat me when i was young,thats why im agressive"
i dont accept such excuses.i do accept the restriction of "human nature",as a means of achieving harmonic life with other people,in return.

The main goal is self-development,the acquirement of the highest level of wisdom possible,while seeing the world with clear eyes,free and far from coloured glasses.

just my two cents:Spin:

 

[Allan]

I'm long done debating with people whether human beings are basically selfish and greedy. All so theoretical and useless. I just keep on having this image of someone all alone with his selfishness and greed. The image makes me laugh and feel pretty sure it is not so.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

its groundless using a simple dictionary against a theory.no sense at all.

groundless? im using a dictonary against the misusing of a word, sounds fair to me. if a whole theory is based on the misuse of a word, then it can fuck off

thats called idiosyncracy,character.and its just one meaning of the word"nature".at least in greek.

you know what idiosyncracy means and you cant use 'nature' the right way? :Smug:

why do you stick to the surface?greed is not necessarily bad.for me its part of the self-preservance instinct.the reason why we evolved,why we dont still live in caves,why we want to be better,why we fight for what we fight.Greed is bad when connected with power,money,envy ,voluptuousness.Plato(again)had a clever story to tell.About Gigis and the magic ring that made you invisible.anyone?

i stick to what the word means and the negative way you used it. greed is often used with a negative connotation anyway :

greed noun
a very strong wish to continually get more of something, especially food or money:
I don't know why I'm eating more - it's not hunger, it's just greed!
He was unsympathetic with many house sellers, complaining that they were motivated by greed.

you have to use the words for the meaning they hold, not for something they might possibly mean, and then complain cause we got it wrong like. and give plato a break, hes not like hes been living in the current world, hes a couple of thousand years late, he doesnt know about emoticons and fast internet, how am i gonna trust what he said heh?

That has to do with the level of Virtue one has achieved and the hierarchic structures of one's Values(targets,purposes).thats why some people are called "wiser" and others" swept over by the waves".

no, thats called 'behaving in the way that fits the situation the most'. you dont have to be really wise to do thatn even animals do it.

it does for me.i see it a basic intinct.Like the one for food,shelter,sociality,procreation,self-preservance etc

some people are greedy about food, some arent, same for sociality, procreation, self-perseverance or *insert any conceptual word here*. we're all different, we're all individuals with same instincts but different characters and experience and background and future and whatever. you can feel some similarities between a couple of individuals with the same background and that, but even by that it wouldnt go to the point that two individuals have exactly the same characters. just look at the your siblings, theyre different from you arent they, even tho they have the same parents and background etc. so 'human nature' is a big meaningless concept.

That would fit for a "vineyard-philosopher".Who said i count myself out of this?its like saying"m dad beat me when i was young,thats why im agressive"
i dont accept such excuses.i do accept the restriction of "human nature",as a means of achieving harmonic life with other people,in return.

The main goal is self-development,the acquirement of the highest level of wisdom possible,while seeing the world with clear eyes,free and far from coloured glasses.

just my two cents:Spin:

youre just using dead conceptual words all together and at the end of the day these sentences mean fuck all, or the meaning get diluted in big words and theres nothing i could answer to that really. "i do accept the restriction of "human nature" as a means of achieving harmonic life with other people,in return"?? what the fuck does that mean put it high on making your points clearer and low on brain wanking please, cause i cant keep up

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

I'm long done debating with people whether human beings are basically selfish and greedy. All so theoretical and useless. I just keep on having this image of someone all alone with his selfishness and greed. The image makes me laugh and feel pretty sure it is not so.

theres no human nature. there are unique individuals who sometimes behave in the way you think they would obviously do. but calling that human nature is shit.

 

[Allan]

theres no human nature. there are unique individuals who sometimes behave in the way you think they would obviously do. but calling that human nature is shit.

Yes exactly. But as you said we tend to not wanna be totally responsible for ourselves. Blaming human nature is only one example of that.

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

thats exactly my point allan. thanks fuck there are still some blokes around to understand what i mean.

 

[Light]

what is it in the nature of man that makes us hate and cheat and steal and kill?

 

[somnium_in_tenebris]

groundless? im using a dictonary against the misusing of a word, sounds fair to me. if a whole theory is based on the misuse of a word, then it can fuck off

you can use dictionary for the basic meaning of the word.people have written books about it.you cant explain it with two sentences.its like giving me the definition of love in two sentences!Thousands have written books to explain what this thing is,everybody has his theory,but still there is no standard meaning.Dictionaries are conventional codes,for people to communicate.Try to set limits to meanings we cannot restrict or fully understand.The word "nature" in greek has been originally(from old times its the same word) used the way i used it and it's correct.should you doubt,you can check the familiar texts...

you know what idiosyncracy means and you cant use 'nature' the right way? :Smug:

"idiosyncrasy" a completely greek word:Smug:mind you,the differences in languages.nations may use the same word for different meanings.

i stick to what the word means and the negative way you used it. greed is often used with a negative connotation anyway :

greed noun
a very strong wish to continually get more of something

i dont find anything negative here.and thats the essence of my point about it.this strong wish works either as motivation for sth better(good meaning) or sth corrupting(negative meanng e.g greed for endless power),depending on situation.

you have to use the words for the meaning they hold, not for something they might possibly mean, and then complain cause we got it wrong like.

and you have to stop regarding things in one dimension,you should see spherically.

and give plato a break, hes not like hes been living in the current world, hes a couple of thousand years late, he doesnt know about emoticons and fast internet, how am i gonna trust what he said heh?

i cant see the connection of our subject to emoticons and fast internet.as if,someone is up to date only if he knows what internet means.:Smug:groundless argument.there are some truths that have been revealed 2000 years before and are still valid.You can die by astonishment on how many truths a "ancient tragedy"(like Antigone of Sophocleus)can reveal and they perfectly match and fit in our lives.and this is a decent proof that human nature is not a "big meaningless concept".

*anyone who just blames human nature for his faults tho and doesnt fight and get better is a coward and hides behind his finger.

youre just using dead conceptual words?

erm sorry,thats my way of expression.most of us use very poor vocabulary,which is sad and sign of civilisation decadence.i use the words that cover my thought best.and i find it hard to fully express myself in english,cos i find the language a bit poor.

"i do accept the restriction of "human nature" as a means of achieving harmonic life with other people,in return"?? what the fuck does that mean

erm i think the words are simple.if you wanna get together with people,you have to restrict you instincts and desires.e.g you wanna shag the neighbour's wife,the neighbours daughter,you want to have the money that your neighbour has.Do you rape?Do you steal?No,cos you "restrict "your desires in the name of harmonious and peaceful being with other people.The latter Value is more precious and beneficial than the previous,so the previous gets sacrificed for the latter.phew

put it high on making your points clearer and low on brain wanking please, cause i cant keep up

brain wanking=thinking in more than 1 dimension?
clearer=use simple words,in lack of more precise ones?

i accept that you are a practical mind and that you want things like A B C.Simple.Though,you should accept that others are not like that.That explains why you studied practical sciences and why i study theoritical sciences.The best way,though,is always the middle way :Spin:
cheers!

lets shut up now,unless we wanna be reminded what happened in the mailing list one year ago

 

[mehdi.i.e.e.e]

i dont want to e-argue with someone who calls emoticons and internet groundless anyway