Work

speed

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Nov 19, 2001
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Work, is a most interesting conundrum. On one hand, in the United States, work or occupation is considered to give and be the meaning of ones life; one spends one's whole life, from education to countless years, sacrificing at the altar of work. Yet, at the same time, if one looks or reads of those great thinkers, scientists, artists, writers, and so on, one discovers that it was the very fact such persons were free of the duties of an occupation, that they began creating. This idea is most prevalent in our Universities; especially the scientific departments. Many profs, are freed up from teaching duties to focus on more important research.

Thus, I propose the hypothesis that work in the form of some money earning occupation, far from being a benefit, is actually quite the hindrance for human development. While we spend our years wasting away in some office or store, or other profession, we could be "working" on something more personally fulfilling, and something of great importance for all humanity.

Karl Marx, despite his cockamamied political ideology, was on to something when he wrote about work. In the Grundrisse he envisioned a time, in the not-to-distant future, when all persons would be required to work no more than four hours a day, or even less. The rest of the time would be spent on their own "development" if you will. This was a time, when there was not enough relevant or essential positions available due to efficiency and mechanization. Have we hit this stage or era (without thinking of some historical theory)? Are the millions of positions in this country really necessary anymore? No one produces anything anymore; there are less than 3 million farmers as well. Besides teachers, police and fireman, power plant operators, inspectors and the like, how many positions are even necessary? Do we really need these millions of sales and marketing, and business analysts, etc, etc, positions? And what about in the future, as technology expands even further, and more and more jobs are shipped overseas due to efficiency and cost? Will the idea of work be different; if so, what changes would be best?
 
Certainly to those people who are self-motivated and independant, a free thinking, less demanding environment is definitely worth their while and perhaps, societies while aswell. The problem is that 90% of people are sheep-like, and are afraid to put their lives, their world under that microscope and learn about things and grow .. they would much rather sit themselves down and chat uselessly on some metal message board :)
 
Though I really don't like talking about it, I am in the process of finishing up one of my secret projects, which will be up and running in 3-5 months. It actually has a fair chance of making me a lot of cash, but at the very least, will be an asset to our local online community.

Had I not taken this time off .. I clearly would not have had the time nor the motivation to see this through.
 
judas69 said:
Though I really don't like talking about it, I am in the process of finishing up one of my secret projects, which will be up and running in 3-5 months. It actually has a fair chance of making me a lot of cash, but at the very least, will be an asset to our local online community.

Had I not taken this time off .. I clearly would not have had the time nor the motivation to see this through.
... but i don't have a job so i should have already done something to change the world... but unfortunately i'm LLaazzyy...:tickled:
 
I consider myself a lazy person also .. but the feeling of satisfaction of getting something done .. setting a goal and achieving it (whatever it might be) is definitely a great feeling. Don't get me wrong though, I did spend months playing counter-strike and RPGs etc :)
 
judas69 said:
Certainly to those people who are self-motivated and independant, a free thinking, less demanding environment is definitely worth their while and perhaps, societies while aswell. The problem is that 90% of people are sheep-like, and are afraid to put their lives, their world under that microscope and learn about things and grow .. they would much rather sit themselves down and chat uselessly on some metal message board :)
I agree...not to mention the fact that for every Kant who took the time off work to revolutionize some industry/school of thought, there are countless others who did the same, but provided nothing to society. The fact of the matter is that some jobs are relatively useless, and I would claim almost all of them are in the world of corporations and business. Executives, analysts, etc.

However, most people have a job because its needed. And those professors you mentioned that are teaching less for research, many of them are researching something in the field of medicine which prolongs life. I think to say that a majority of the jobs people have are unnecessary is short sighted. In some way, most people are producing something or connected to something important. My mom is a social worker with a hospice organization. My dad has basically done phone-operated customer service all his life. My grandmother was a nurse, my grandfather ran his own printing company. My brother is a financial advisor. Would you consider any of those jobs completely unnecessary? I dont know that I would...except maybe for my brother...but i dont know much about finance. I digress, this isnt about my family, Im just saying that if you really think about it, I think most jobs are necessary at some level. I agree with you speed, ideally. However, i think like a true communistic society in which no one is poor, it is also an impossible utopia (currently).
 
americans live to work, that is a fact. thats one of the reasons i cant stand this country anymore. go to anywhere in europe (france has a 35 hr work week and they see more production value than california) and you can see the emphasis is on enjoying life. obviously people in these countries work, and job competition can be fierce, but you wont find any other country except for maybe china where working 50 hrs a week is considered a norm. over 50% of americans work over a 50hr work week. this is a statistical fact. i dont see why anyone would want to work that much considering once you're out of school you work for the next 40 plus years. also, they receice more worker benefits (more vacation time, better hours, much better insurance to name just a few things).

i hate working. i hate not having control of my time. i have a problem with authority, too, so that doesnt help.
 
Devy_Metal said:
americans live to work, that is a fact. thats one of the reasons i cant stand this country anymore. go to anywhere in europe (france has a 35 hr work week and they see more production value than california) and you can see the emphasis is on enjoying life. obviously people in these countries work, and job competition can be fierce, but you wont find any other country except for maybe china where working 50 hrs a week is considered a norm. over 50% of americans work over a 50hr work week. this is a statistical fact. i dont see why anyone would want to work that much considering once you're out of school you work for the next 40 plus years. also, they receice more worker benefits (more vacation time, better hours, much better insurance to name just a few things).

i hate working. i hate not having control of my time. i have a problem with authority, too, so that doesnt help.
Those are all excellent points, and I agree. However, assuming the US got its act together regarding employment, that doesnt change the fact that in europe people still work alot. Maybe not 50 hours a week, but alot more than 4 hours a day. Work is still needed for stuff to get done. I actually like my job, however...I tend to get jobs I like, its worked out pretty well so far, but I have yet to get a job in the "real" world as it were.
 
Cheers to you both. That picture was taken in ecuador where my professor Paul Hamilton does research. Im hoping to go with him one of these times, he sees some amazing shit there.
 
speed said:
Work, is a most interesting conundrum. On one hand, in the United States, work or occupation is considered to give and be the meaning of ones life; one spends one's whole life, from education to countless years, sacrificing at the altar of work. Yet, at the same time, if one looks or reads of those great thinkers, scientists, artists, writers, and so on, one discovers that it was the very fact such persons were free of the duties of an occupation, that they began creating. This idea is most prevalent in our Universities; especially the scientific departments. Many profs, are freed up from teaching duties to focus on more important research.

.....
Will the idea of work be different; if so, what changes would be best?

When it becomes more of a job than something fulfilling it becomes so limiting. You got to worry about following rules laid out by your boss or your client etc which gets annoying. Even if you create something you feel to be worthwhile they'll force you to compromise under their taste or standards.

Yes, you Americans work much harder than us slow Canadians. :lol:
 
Scott W said:
I agree...not to mention the fact that for every Kant who took the time off work to revolutionize some industry/school of thought, there are countless others who did the same, but provided nothing to society. The fact of the matter is that some jobs are relatively useless, and I would claim almost all of them are in the world of corporations and business. Executives, analysts, etc.

However, most people have a job because its needed. And those professors you mentioned that are teaching less for research, many of them are researching something in the field of medicine which prolongs life. I think to say that a majority of the jobs people have are unnecessary is short sighted. In some way, most people are producing something or connected to something important. My mom is a social worker with a hospice organization. My dad has basically done phone-operated customer service all his life. My grandmother was a nurse, my grandfather ran his own printing company. My brother is a financial advisor. Would you consider any of those jobs completely unnecessary? I dont know that I would...except maybe for my brother...but i dont know much about finance. I digress, this isnt about my family, Im just saying that if you really think about it, I think most jobs are necessary at some level. I agree with you speed, ideally. However, i think like a true communistic society in which no one is poor, it is also an impossible utopia (currently).

Yes, Ideally I am not discussing a utopian communistic society. However, I think we agree that work, for the lions share of workers, are jobs are of such minute importance, that they could easily be cut back to half the time one spends on them. Think about how much inefficiency is built into any of these positions. That's really my point. 90% of Americans work in nonessential jobs that really are not all that important, yet, they are under the false impression that through their work they are making a contribution, and defining themselves at the same time.


Now the discussion has started, what does everyone think about the future? In that, I mean the fact that an Indian, or a Russian, can easily do the same quality of work as an American or Englishman in Bangalore or Moscow due to the internet and other technological changes.
 
I think to those businesses and corporations, their employees working ..no matter how useless their jobs may appear to anyone else, are very important to financial well-being of the company.
 
speed said:
90% of Americans work in nonessential jobs that really are not all that important, yet, they are under the false impression that through their work they are making a contribution, and defining themselves at the same time.

I disagree. I think many feel their jobs to be unfulfilling and pointless but they're just doing it out of necessity or just being passive all together.
 
MURAI said:
I disagree. I think many feel their jobs to be unfulfilling and pointless but they're just doing it out of necessity or just being passive all together.

Thats very very true. Everyone I know who works as a lawyer, in a corporation, and other such jobs, pretty much hate the work they are doing, and do it out of financial necessity-- nothing more.
 
judas69 said:
I think to those businesses and corporations, their employees working ..no matter how useless their jobs may appear to anyone else, are very important to financial well-being of the company.

If this was the case, then why are corporations laying so many of them off, cutting their pensions, and increasing their out-of-pocket medical costs. Alot of the present problem comes from the fact that many of these old positions like middle management, have become increasingly obsolete, and fewer and fewer employees are needed to effectively run a business--or its easier and cheaper to hire them as consultants.