Yet another religion thread: what constitutes weird?

[MagSec4]

religion really only gives very broad directions, such as .... "remember that the real deal is the afterlife, not here".

I would say that it would be one hell of a disappointment for the poor soul who refused to lead a happy life in hopes for the one afterwards only to find out that there is no such thing. But of course, if that were the case one can't really talk about "disappointment", or any other feeling, once dead. Suffice it to say that it would be a shame.
And sadly, it's the reality that many people live, like those who choose "martyrdom".

This is one of the reasons why religions are found in humans virtually everywhere throughout the world and throughout history: Our fear of death and our incessant hope for something more. I too would absolutely love it if I could live on in some real way.

In my case though, it is exactly that vast amount of knowledge that makes me believe. I find it quite unlikely that all this complexity and perfection of rules that we find in the universe (even in human bodies, the complexity with which they grow and work is amazing), came to be in a random way. Our world makes too much sense to have been created by mere chance. And i'm quite sure someone made those rules by which the world goes round in the first place, how else could they exist on their own?

That was EXACTLY my reasoning many years ago, when I defended the idea of a God (even though I had long realized how little sense religion itself made); and that is exactly why a lot of learned people still believe in a God.
Forgive me for presenting my answer in an "as is" manner without explanation (the matter is much too complex to write away in a post or even a thread), and I also really really don't mean to sound condescending (even though I know many of you will not believe me anyways) but this is it:
-You don't have enough of that knowledge, and you gravely underestimate its extent.
And I can also tell the following about you (and many other smart individuals that believe the same way):
-You think you understand evolution
-You do not understand evolution

Case in point:
-Evolution is NOT chance and it is NOT random. Very few people understand this.
-Calling the very predictable ways in which various natural things seem to work "rules" and "laws" is a human-made notion so that we may learn about them, work with them, and organize them; and this notion is obviously misleading. It makes people think that they are rules and laws like our rules and our laws and therefore had to be set by a conscious being.

 

[Siren]

@Mags: You don't mean to sound condescending, but you do. You also sound arrogant, since you assume that you know what i know, understand and think, to the extent that you become judgemental, when in fact we never had a single conversation about this. You also seem to assume that you know more than me or anyone else in here. You may have studied all you claim you have studied, but i very much doubt you have come to the bottom of all this. You're free to prove to us the extent of your knowledge, please share your wisdom with us.



edit: i'm sorry if i sound ironic or mean.

 

[rahvin]

I too would absolutely love it if I could live on in some real way.

I imagine the degree of satisfaction would depend on the way. The counterpart to: "What a relief! I'm gonna be part of a transcendental absolute when I die!" supposedly is: "I'm gonna get nowhere near that unless I behave in a certain way while I'm alive". If it were only meant to be soothing it wouldn't try to scare you with the prospect of failing at achieving the desired result.

I'm not saying the intention is necessarily divine in nature, but hope is probably not the only thing behind it.

 

[soulburner]

I would say that it would be one hell of a disappointment for the poor soul who refused to lead a happy life in hopes for the one afterwards only to find out that there is no such thing.

since when living in accordance with rules of religion does nessessarily mean "unhappy life"?

 

[hyena]

@rahvin: very very good point, and well argued.

@soulburner: not necessarily, no. but religion does entail sacrifice, sometimes.

 

[MagSec4]

You don't mean to sound condescending, but you do. You also sound arrogant

Yeah..
Yeah, I guess I do. What can I say..

I don't assume to know what you know or don't know, though. Like I've said before at some point, my reasoning is simply arriving at a probable or likely conclusion (that I never claim to be absolute or 100% correct) based on the data before me, and based on what I know and understand (which, unlike what you imply of me, is certainly not absolute or by any means complete). In fact, you're a doctor in training; and aren't you almost done? You probably know much more about a great deal of things than I ever will.

In this case, I just happen to have heard what you said already many times from many people, and I've had discussions with them and about that particular reasoning at arriving at the conclusion that there must be a God. From my experience with myself and with all these other people, I've noticed that that reasoning tends to predictably follow certain thoughts and certain argumentative parts, and it usually happens that the person understands a certain idea, but misunderstands a certain aspect of it, or knows a great deal about something but not about something else that could be important and relevant to the discussion.
Why would I say something conclusive about your understanding of evolution? Because it seems, from what you wrote (nothing I "simply assumed") that you probably misunderstand certain parts of it. You used the phrases "came to be in a random way" and "created by mere chance" and, from my experience, those are reliable symptoms of evolution misunderstanding. Yes, I confess the phrases might have made me a bit emotional, but it isn't at all because of an arrogant and self-absorbed way of thinking. ..I guess, like most people, one doesn't like it very much when others walk around with a false or inaccurate idea of something that one happens to find so immensely interesting and simply wonderful. Sue me. Ban me.

In short, it's like making medical diagnoses: from what is observed briefly on a person, the doctor can perhaps start to make an idea of what is likely happening with the patient. It never necessarily means that the doctor is absolutely right or knows about all the symptoms, but I don't think the patient should get too upset if the diagnosis is nothing like what the patient believes it is

I imagine the degree of satisfaction would depend on the way. The counterpart to: "What a relief! I'm gonna be part of a transcendental absolute when I die!" supposedly is: "I'm gonna get nowhere near that unless I behave in a certain way while I'm alive". If it were only meant to be soothing it wouldn't try to scare you with the prospect of failing at achieving the desired result.

I'm not saying the intention is necessarily divine in nature, but hope is probably not the only thing behind it.

..touché.
Yeah, I guess it can just as easily be said that it'd be a shame to see someone, maybe a child, go through a lot of emotional suffering because she's convinced that her sister (or best friend ever), who just killed herself, is currently burning in hell for all eternity; or that her mother just died and has reason to believe that she will be painfully broiling in purgatory for decades before she's admitted into heaven.


EDIT:

since when living in accordance with rules of religion does nessessarily mean "unhappy life"?

Never, my soul burning friend, has living in accordance with rules of religion necessarily meant an "unhappy life"; and nowhere in that quote of mine is it otherwise implied

 

[QRV]

This is one of the reasons why religions are found in humans virtually everywhere throughout the world and throughout history: Our fear of death and our incessant hope for something more. I too would absolutely love it if I could live on in some real way.

Personally, I think that there's an innate, archetypal knowledge of the existence of a spiritual realm (call it instinct, collective unconscious, whatever) as opposed to the concrete tridimensional realm. Myths, dreams, artworks, philosophies, etc., all around the world and throughout history pretty much have shown shared motifs on this. But hey, that's just my opinion.

On the other hand, I wouldn't reduce religion to a mere construct made out of fear. Religion has also proved to form the basis of ethical systems that strive towards existencial meaning, or, in other words, self-realization. It's a guide that aims for the deepest sense of life and, as such, for functional relationships between the individual and the whole. Some of these systems are pretty cool, other are quite neurotic in some aspects, but they all point towards the same thing. it's not all a matter of "fear of death", but a means to face the reality of death in order to live a proper life. That'd be the ideal, though, as I say, some neurotic religious systems can deform it to an extent.

 

[Siren]

@Magsec: You'd be surprised with how some patients have a better idea of what they have and how they can get upset with a wrong diagnosis. By the way, i'm still waiting to read the truth about evolution, how about you finally get to that?

Yeah, I guess it can just as easily be said that it'd be a shame to see someone, maybe a child, go through a lot of emotional suffering because she's convinced that her sister (or best friend ever), who just killed herself, is currently burning in hell for all eternity; or that her mother just died and has reason to believe that she will be painfully broiling in purgatory for decades before she's admitted into heaven.

I personally think that purgatory is a catholic invention and as such utter bullshit (sorry to the catholics ;p). I also have my doubts about the exact form of hell, i should read up more on that (death of soul is more appealing as an explanation to me at the moment). But yeah, people believing that and suffering for someone else's death is wrong.

Personally, I think that there's an innate, archetypal knowledge of the existence of a spiritual realm (call it instinct, collective unconscious, whatever) as opposed to the concrete tridimensional realm. Myths, dreams, artworks, philosophies, etc., all around the world and throughout history pretty much have shown shared motifs on this. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I agree with this.

 

[hyena]

@siren: did you know we will soon be in the same boat? i cannot find an article in english at the moment, but i have been reading about this orthodox-catholic commission that recently released an official document paving the way for re-unification. it's not going to happen overnight, but it seems that the "federal model" proposed by the current pope, where he is a primus inter pares in a 5-patriarch team, is taken well by the orthodox leaders. except for the russians, of course, but i guess that's more political than religious. if a way is found to turn the russians around, then the schism might be on its way out.

 

[Siren]

@hyena: i'm all for re-unification but i wish they would drop the political shit. everyone should be equal, but i guess it can't work very well if someone isn't in charge. anyway, it's much more complicated than that, i don't honestly believe that the differences in dogma and belief can be worked out that easily, the random grandma and aunt in village X is not going to change beliefs overnight, just because someone tells them so. after all this is religion, and they should work out the religious differences first.
the other thing i found interesting is some similar letters sent from the muslim religious leaders to the christian ones, saying that we really all believe in one God and we should try to live in peace with each other. if that isn't unification, then what is?

edit: i have to admit that i rather liked being in a religion noone was familiar with. now i might have to change.

 

[QRV]

You know what would be great? If the Pope returned to the old mediator model (that's Peter) and just said, "fuck it, we're closing the Vatican, this is not a monarchy anymore", and started traveling all around the world, staying in the countries that most need such mediator. Like, the situation is a bit tense in Latin America and there's a need for building bridges between the Catholics and the Protestants, then he goes to Brazil and stays there for a few years; or, there's a lot of trouble with the child molesters in the USA, so he goes there as well, and so on. Every location would be autonomous and religion would be as diverse as it needs to be, just like in the first days of Christianity.

But it's delusional, the world's going to end before anything like that can happen.

 

[hyena]

@qrv: well, actually B16 did say that he was against the model of the pope as an absolute monarch. while he's not going to go and live in brasil anytime soon, the federal model might mean more influence of people who are not in rome. of course right now the federation is going to be with eastern orthodox churches, ie religious groups that share the socially conservative bent of the current papacy, which is what the secular media tend to pick up most of all, and i guess this might - along with historical reasons - have oriented the pope in the direction of looking more at the orthodox than at the protestant for the first reconciliation.

@siren: worry not, religion's always going to be kind of obscure in european countries anyway, no matter the denomination.

 

[GHOST IN THE RUINS]

Hello everyone, I hope it's ok to join this discussion... What i think is the following:

There is no God in the sense of a separate entity or a consciousness. God is only an idea in man's mind, or the summary of a long answer. This long answer is a series of rules and principles on ways of behaviour and conduct towards oneself, towards others, and towards the world (earthly life) in general.

Because the majority of the people living back in biblical times (compare them to a 3 year old) could not grasp abstract and metaphysical ideas, concrete answers were needed and had to be made.These were (and are) answers to calm down the axiety of mankind that became aware of its ailments, illnesses, weaknesses and the eventual ultimate death, and there came the question of 'what next?'

The answers came in the form of many gods at first, gods which ruled over the designated territories of the countries of the time. These gods had stories. In the stories these gods were made into role models. The stories resembled and immitated real life and addressed the common problems and questions of the time (much like what movies are to us) and the role models (gods) provided the methods of conduct and solutions to the problems of the time.

Then came the idea of One god. One who not only presided over all other gods, but also rebelled against them all and slayed them one by one. (Yahwe was the name of that god, his father was called EL who presided over all the gods of that region [the middle east] Astaroth, Baal, Marduk and Tiamat from Mesopotamia (today's Iraq)). He killed them all announcing himself as the only god worthy of being worshipped and his main trait was jealousy: There was to be no other god not only equal to him, but also there was to be no other god but him! Or else he promised vengeance and wrath upon the people who worshipped any other god within the region.

This jealous god was the idea of the semites who were inspired by the Persians who believed in the presence ot two gods back then (Mazda, the omnicient god of the skies, and Ahura the god of the woods) Ahura was Mazda's leutenant on earth and he obeyed his every wish. He even died for 4 months in winter as a sacrifice to mazda and was resurructed every spring as a hope and sign of rebirth. The cycle of life was complete like that.

The semites took this idea and transformed Ahura, the god of nature and earth, into a demon who was in conflict with the heavenly god yahwe.... and then came Christianity that tried to tone down the language of a wrathful god etc...

One must be able to make the distinction between religion as a ritual or story and religion as an answer to lost mankind. Man who is born into this life, hopeful, eager at first, who has to struggle hard to survive, get sick and then die.... "All for what?" scrwamed man, and the answer came from the tongues of other men, disguised as a god in a book: To join with the ultimate maker and weaver of the universe: God, Allah, Brahma...

So life became worth living, its pain became more tolerable. Faith, only when it is blind, groundless, unfound on any logic or sense, can do miracles for its bearer. If you project yourself to being a loser all your life, then it is what you will eventually become, this is one form of faith. Another is more hopeful: If you believe that no matter what, in the end someone (god) will help you, then everything becomes easier. Faith is nothing but an idea. A perspective.

All the rituals and religious bogus associated with this idea is nothing but a physical and moral practice to help the average individual remember, keep him in 'uniform' through displays of ritual....

When Nietzche announced that "God is dead" he meant that the age of reason is on the rise, and god cannot go on living in the age of reason. Reason has no place for god. And he is right. God died, and with him gone depression and hopelessness is spreading... it becomes sort of like the words Rahvin quoted from John Steinbeck in the first page of 'books to read thread':

"when a child first catches adults out - when it first walks into his grave little head that adults do not have divine intelligence, that their judgements are not always wise, their thinking true, their sentences just - his world falls into panic desolation. the gods are fallen and all safety gone. and there is one sure thing about the fall of gods: they do not fall a little; they crash and shatter or sink deeply into green muck. it is a tedious job to build them up again; they never quite shine. and the child's world is never quite whole again. it is an aching kind of growing"

Religion as Osho has said, is the only thing that prepares man for death. Nothing else does the same job. Everything else is a promise for life... but when man nears the edge of his grave...when the years have passed in a blur in his mind... when nothing remains but old bones and weary eyes... what will give comfort to this grey man... who and what will catch him when he falls? who will give him a valid answer for all his suffering and toil on earth?

Nothing?

 

[ian.de]

Personally, I think that there's an innate, archetypal knowledge of the existence of a spiritual realm (call it instinct, collective unconscious, whatever) as opposed to the concrete tridimensional realm. Myths, dreams, artworks, philosophies, etc., all around the world and throughout history pretty much have shown shared motifs on this. But hey, that's just my opinion.

This is all a product of human consciousness of consciousness. You can think about thinking about thinking about thinking, no other animal can do that. And because of this, we can brew up some crazy shit in our heads.

It's a blessing and a curse, do you think a great white tiger often ponders his purpose? No, he's too busy banging other lions, taking other animals out of existence, and sleeping. I wish I could just accept that fact that my purpose is to eat, sleep, and live long enough to reproduce, it would make everything a lot easier. But no, I have to constantly worry every minute of my life, experience depression, sadness, and feelings of incompitence while questioning what I am doing with my life. Fuck the human condition is what I say.

@Magsec: By the way, i'm still waiting to read the truth about evolution, how about you finally get to that?

Why don't you crack open a book or two and come to a complete understanding on your own? Obviously you don't care enough to understand the concept beyond your current generalizations. How is asking magsec to post random articles/ideas so that you can pick at them going to further the argument?

 

[Siren]

Why don't you crack open a book or two and come to a complete understanding on your own? Obviously you don't care enough to understand the concept beyond your current generalizations. How is asking magsec to post random articles/ideas so that you can pick at them going to further the argument?

Thanks for making me laugh. I know more about evolution than you think. I was just waiting to see what i have missed, if there is something i have missed indeed. Much easier for someone who thinks he knows what i have missed to point it out to me.

 

[ian.de]

Evolution/science has left little to no room for intelligent design. The only thing left for God to possibly be responsible for is the beginning of the universe. Although they will probably figure that out soon enough and then God will be responsible for the begining of whatever our universe is "contained" inside of, and so on.

If you understand evolution/science you should know that God did not create any of the living things on earth. You should know that God did not create the earth, the solar system, or the galaxies in the universe. So everything in that ancient book, that "god" said he made, he didn't really make. Aside from false hopes, it leaves me wondering what God is even good for?

 

[DisplayofCharacter]

It's a blessing and a curse, do you think a great white tiger often ponders his purpose? No, he's too busy banging other lions

WIN!

I couldn't resist...

edit: I know this adds nothing to the topic at hand. I also know that I'm nitpicking on a minor inconsistency, for the sake of humor. I want to head that off before I get flamed over nothing. This thread could use some lulz.

 

[QRV]

This is all a product of human consciousness of consciousness. You can think about thinking about thinking about thinking, no other animal can do that. And because of this, we can brew up some crazy shit in our heads.

This is the most nonsensical crap I've read in months. What the hell was that? A parody of postmodern thinking?

It's a blessing and a curse, do you think a great white tiger often ponders his purpose? No, he's too busy banging other lions, taking other animals out of existence, and sleeping. I wish I could just accept that fact that my purpose is to eat, sleep, and live long enough to reproduce, it would make everything a lot easier. But no, I have to constantly worry every minute of my life, experience depression, sadness, and feelings of incompitence while questioning what I am doing with my life. Fuck the human condition is what I say.

Parody of postmodernism, indeed.

 

[MagSec4]

GHOST IN THE RUINS: It's the first time I have heard of some of those details in the historical background. ..Interesting to read, thank you for that.

 

[rahvin]

edit: I know this adds nothing to the topic at hand. I also know that I'm nitpicking on a minor inconsistency, for the sake of humor. I want to head that off before I get flamed over nothing. This thread could use some lulz.

Judging from his reply to Siren, ian.de couldn't spot humor if it were thrown in his face by a bunch of angry gods with sticks.

This thread is indeed a goldmine of revelations: I used to believe jugs of milk existed, but now I know better. I used to think it meant something to ponder about the universe, but now I know I should be having intercourse with lions instead. My life sure is bound to change a lot.