You Motw guys should know...
- Thread starter Static
- Start date
FuSoYa
Lunarian
A better example is, if you tell a joke, and I get the joke, but I just don't think it's funny.
Does that mean I didn't REALLY get the joke?
Does that mean I didn't REALLY get the joke?
FuSoYa
Lunarian
I think the burden is on you to explain why this came up. You made an outrageous statement along the lines of
and I'm saying that I think that is a ridiculous thing to say, and I thought you were trying to explain to me why it's not ridiculous.
and I'm saying that I think that is a ridiculous thing to say, and I thought you were trying to explain to me why it's not ridiculous.
the analogy is too problematic and too complex. there too many things involved. at this point I don't see the purpose in debating. if you or sam can see a sense to what I'm saying, if minimal one, that's all I intended. i feel no need to absolutely prove the validity of everything I post.. unless you really love discussing this.
FuSoYa said:
so you've never denounced an album only to love it the next day? I don't see anything outrageous about that.
FuSoYa
Lunarian
i actually do, I'm kind of just waiting for 6 o' clock to arrive. I'm not arguing to try to make you look wrong, I'm just genuinely interested in the logic of your point of view.
let's say the you of yesterday who hates an album can argue with the you of tommorow who loves the album. how do you think an argument of this kind would sound like? probably one guy would go "this music is incoherent" and second would go "nonsense, you've got to listen to it more. it's not incoherent".. see?
FuSoYa
Lunarian
I have indeed, but what you said was that, invariably, if a person hasn;t liked a record it meant they didn't understand it and what's more made a LESS INTELLIGENT analysis of it than a person who did like it.
I disagreed that this is true across the board, and I wanted to know why you think it is true.
not: invariably. it depends on the particular statement (and the reasoning supporting it)FuSoYa said:
FuSoYa
Lunarian
And furthermore, I don't think that Opeth is incoherent and that's not my issue with them. I like their sections but I don't like the way they fit them together.
I have listened to Morningrise hundreds of times, and while I expect the next parts and know the songs, I don't like how in, say, "To Bid You Farewell" for example, the clean part transitions into the distortion part. That's not where I would have preferred the song to go.
I have listened to Morningrise hundreds of times, and while I expect the next parts and know the songs, I don't like how in, say, "To Bid You Farewell" for example, the clean part transitions into the distortion part. That's not where I would have preferred the song to go.
FuSoYa
Lunarian
well in defense of Sam, I don't think he said anything that would indicate he gave an unintelligent or uninformed or misunderstood opinion of Opeth.
also:
I agree!
also:
I agree!
YaYo
whendaydescends.com
- May 6, 2001
- 4,458
- 23
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Yes. But EVERYONE interprets music differently... everyone listens for different things in music. Its not about understanding or 'getting' it. its about if the music is providing the things that you listen for in music.FalseTodd said:
A drummer for example, is a lot more rhythm based. Some tend to get more from the rhythm of the picking pattern and don't even hear the wierd harmonies that may be going on. A guitarist on the other hand might notice all these harmonies. Even amongst guitarists there will be differences, one will notice a slight vibrato and that'll affect them... while another didnt notice and it just passed them by. The differences are many, and they can be quite subtle with major effects on the listening experience. Two people with the same favourite band will most likely not be listening for exactly the same reasons.
Its like you meet someone who says they have the same favourite show as you. Lets say its the simpsons. So you sit down to watch it with them.. yet you find they laugh at all the slapstick jokes, while you're laughing at the political jokes.
The evidence for this is the amount of people who say things like "If you want to hear a band like Opeth then check out Novembre". Now to me the fundamental approach of these two bands is hugely different, but to the person making the comment they are obviously getting the same things from both bands.
And what you listen for does change over time, as you get bored of one area (ie from knowing it inside out) or suddenly notice other areas (maybe you talk to a drummer and he points out a weird drum thing).
To say a certain piece of music is 'incoherant' can be a valid point, but its still hugely subjective and only applies to the way you listen to music. While opeth gets the label 'incoherant' by some people, another group of people call the bands who stick to ideas longer 'boring'. Just different ways of taking music in. Its certainly a point about what opeth dont do well, but it doesnt mean opeth are incoherant.. it means they are incoherant in the things you look for in music.
It is possible the fault is not with Opeth, but with the way you are trying to listen to their music.
I could write a lot more about this topic... but i shall refrain as I've already rambled enough...
The reason I think that the whole 'incoherent' argument is completely irrelevant is that I believe there is hardly any music I've heard that I have thought that about...I ALWAYS try as hard as I can to understand what the music is saying, and what its good aspects are.
I mean, if you listen to something long enough incoherence is non-existant.
I don't mean that statement in an insulting way, I just believe its completely true...in saying so I have instantly marked myseld as a 'fanboy'. So be it.
I mean, if you listen to something long enough incoherence is non-existant.
I don't mean that statement in an insulting way, I just believe its completely true...in saying so I have instantly marked myseld as a 'fanboy'. So be it.
FalseTodd
Skirt Wizard
xtokalon: I think we've swung around to arguing the same point. I'm definitely not saying that Opeth fans are wrong for finding focus that I don't. I don't see focus (that I would love to be there!), and I just don't appreciate being told that it's my fault and I'm really missing out or whatever.
Yayo: the fault is not with Opeth, but with the way you are trying to listen to their music.
I find their music on some level unsuccessful to my ears. Why is there fault involved? They didn't write the music just for me. I understand this is not the major point of your response though. I agree with just about everything else you said.
Static: Of course nothing is incoherent ( I suppose meaning unpredictable and nonsensical) if you've listened to it 50 times! What I mean by lack of focus, incoherence, etc. is that certain changes, or the placement of certain parts, work against the music instead of for it (to me!). And by that I mean, lessening the emotional impact or what-have-you.
I think you're making the implication that I haven't listened hard enough, and that's annoying. That's really all I'm arguing about here.
Yayo: the fault is not with Opeth, but with the way you are trying to listen to their music.
I find their music on some level unsuccessful to my ears. Why is there fault involved? They didn't write the music just for me. I understand this is not the major point of your response though. I agree with just about everything else you said.
Static: Of course nothing is incoherent ( I suppose meaning unpredictable and nonsensical) if you've listened to it 50 times! What I mean by lack of focus, incoherence, etc. is that certain changes, or the placement of certain parts, work against the music instead of for it (to me!). And by that I mean, lessening the emotional impact or what-have-you.
I think you're making the implication that I haven't listened hard enough, and that's annoying. That's really all I'm arguing about here.
Hrmmm, I think that if I try to come up with some big 'intelligent' answer I'll look like a rambling ass so I won't bother.
I just think there must have been alotof cross-wires in this thread, and some misunderstanding. I think you are talking about personal preference more than anything else. I know where you are coming from though...sometimes I get this sort of feeling with music I listen to in which it just doesn't 'do it' for me..its hard to explain. The music sounds good enough, but it just doesn't 'take you there' so to speak. Some people ramble on and on about how great things are and you just don't see it.
A pretty abstract thing but I think I get what your saying, because I get it too. I guess at the end of it all its just personal preference, your taste, and the way your own brain connects with what you hear. I've always wondered what it is about some things that make you think 'YES', and why with other things that aren't necessarily any worse you think 'NO'.
Hehe, thats a nice and incoherent post for ya.
I just think there must have been alotof cross-wires in this thread, and some misunderstanding. I think you are talking about personal preference more than anything else. I know where you are coming from though...sometimes I get this sort of feeling with music I listen to in which it just doesn't 'do it' for me..its hard to explain. The music sounds good enough, but it just doesn't 'take you there' so to speak. Some people ramble on and on about how great things are and you just don't see it.
A pretty abstract thing but I think I get what your saying, because I get it too. I guess at the end of it all its just personal preference, your taste, and the way your own brain connects with what you hear. I've always wondered what it is about some things that make you think 'YES', and why with other things that aren't necessarily any worse you think 'NO'.
Hehe, thats a nice and incoherent post for ya.
