A brief note on the roster...

[teri]

So how about Volbeat? Anyone wanna place bets on how long until the crowd freaks out and starts oozing mushy love all over these guys? I give the guys 3 notes.

i was giving these guys mushy love after their first album.... i am anticipating that you are right... IF it takes 3 notes

 

[Kimavir]

i was giving these guys mushy love after their first album.... i am anticipating that you are right... IF it takes 3 notes

3 was for most of the rest of the crowd

I'm going to be front and center, already oozing in anticipation.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Pidgeonhole my ass, friend.
I don't think that prog should be limited to one specific "formula," just call it what it is.
To call me a contradiction or a hypocrite because I have the word "Prog" in my SN is not only stupid, it's embarrassing to you.
What a simply ignorant thing to say.
Clearly you must have confused "prog" with "technical."
Cynic, for example, were an early technical metal outfit that featured the growling vocal, but I can't think of a single original prog metal band that featured that snarling idiotic buffoonery known affectionately by most of you as "growling."
Just because a band changes their sound around every couple albums doesn't make them prog.
If that were the case, Madonna, Bon Jovi and Jewel are all prog bands.
I like what I like and I know why I like it, so next time you want to pick apart someone's online pseudonym based on their taste in vocal styles, might I suggest you look to someone who has NO IDEA what they're on about.

I really hate name calling on the internet... and in general... but this is arguably the dumbest most immature post on the internet hands down. I can probably look up arguments for white supremacy that are more mature than this post.

There is no such subgenre called "technical metal". There's tech death, which bands like Necrophagist and Decapitated encompass, but Cynic is without a doubt a prog band. In fact, that new Cynic song has no "snarling idiotic buffoonery", so I wouldn't even relate them to death metal anymore.

Second, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is the opinion of the sane that someone called "prog_muse" would be more open-minded to other nuances in music than high falsetto vocals. It definitely seems like in your post you are fishing for excuses to be intolerant of death vocals and that's sad.

 

[Pellaz]

I take crap ALL the time for not liking growlies ... ask pellaz, who constantly tries to get me to play Cradle of Filth on my show

Hey, "Creatures That Kissed In Cold Mirrors" has no growlies at all. For that matter, neither does "Satanic Mantra."

I wasn't gonna say that if you thought very highly of Amorphis' Silent Waters, then pretty much anyone could like Amorphis.....until you posted that.

Believe me, folks, if Teri -- whose distaste for growlies is legendary at Seismic -- can get into recent Amorphis, then anyone can!

 

[Prog_Muse]

dont sweat it, prog muse... i am called the mistress of metal, but left to my own devices i listen to blues, indie rock, and classical just as often....
what's in a name?
yer right... you like what you like... i take crap ALL the time for not liking growlies ... ask pellaz, who constantly tries to get me to play Cradle of Filth on my show

Thank you.

Not sure if you meant "original" as in not rip-offs or as in genre founders. In the latter case, my information is irrelevant.

No worries; I did mean genre founders, but it's all good.

First of all I didn't call you a hypocrite. I said I wouldn't call you that. Plus, you were way harsher on me than I was with you. That's fine if you felt the need for that. I don't get why you're ragging me for bringing up your screen name. You're the one who named yourself and for a reason I'm sure. Because you're a prog fan. Right? But, you did come off as wanting things to be formulaic and samey. Read again what you posted. Isn't what you're saying defying the logic of progressive?

Look, sugar:
To imply that I am a contradiction of terms is rude enough, but to use my SN as your foundation for your argument is just silly.
If you think I was too harsh on you, my apologies...but I have my own opinions on what is or isn't prog, as well as what does or doesn't completely suck to me.
I realize that alot of you on this board have this thing for growling vocals and that's your right, but don't try to nail me on my SN because my idea of PROGRESSIVE doesn't mesh with yours.

I really hate name calling on the internet... and in general... but this is arguably the dumbest most immature post on the internet hands down. I can probably look up arguments for white supremacy that are more mature than this post.

There is no such subgenre called "technical metal". There's tech death, which bands like Necrophagist and Decapitated encompass, but Cynic is without a doubt a prog band. In fact, that new Cynic song has no "snarling idiotic buffoonery", so I wouldn't even relate them to death metal anymore.

Second, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is the opinion of the sane that someone called "prog_muse" would be more open-minded to other nuances in music than high falsetto vocals. It definitely seems like in your post you are fishing for excuses to be intolerant of death vocals and that's sad.

Gee, the folks out there that comprise the bands and the fans that comprise the technical metal subgenre are going to be very hurt that you have eradicated them from existence.
Maybe you're a little wet behind the ears and haven't been around too long, but technical metal has been around since god knows when; at least the mid-eighties.
A lot of the technical metal bands have been inspiration and fuel for the prog metal genre, and bands like Fates Warning have even admitted strong influences from the classic technical metal sound.
In fact, the Perfect Symmetry album is more of a technical metal album than a prog album anyhow.
*opens floodgates*
For years there was a technical metal forum called Exact Science on the Perpetual Motion board dedicated to this small but absolutely valid subgenre.
Some people call technical metal bands "musician's music" because the complexity of the music tends to appeal to musicians as opposed to the average listener.
Growling vocals are not a prerequisite for technical metal, but here's a few technical metal bands that somehow are seemingly defying your claim that their genre does not exist:
Watchtower
Spastic ink
Manitou
Cynic
Canvas Solaris is carrying the torch for technical metal currently, and doing a damn fine job of it.
One could even argue that Zero Hour are a classic technical metal band.
Prog metal is not as minimalist and as disjointed as technical metal.


As a side note, I don't need to fish for excuses to hate death metal vocals.
I know why I hate the growling:
Because it SOUNDS LIKE SHIT.
I also think that high falsetto vocals can suck just as much as the growling.
These are opinions (although I know many who would state that they are fact.)
Oh, and for you to claim that technical metal isn't a valid subgenre, but that tech death is?
Well shit, bub...that's just plain stupid.

You know, the saddest thing about all of this is that these subgenres of genres are doing nothing but divide people who would most likely run into eachother at shows on a regular basis...

Now then.
If we are all done chewing on eachother's asses and throwing our respective dicks around, does anyone here have anything relevant to add to this discussion?
Or can we get back to discussing the rest of the roster?
:Smug:

 

[General Zod]

When I read what's said here and on as I exemplified earlier, Maryland Death Fest, the death metal fans seem to complain less about the bands on the roster.

Speaking as someone who listens to everything from extreme Black Metal to Prog (and Blues, Jazz, Nordic Lounge, etc.), I'll disagree with you. For starters, it's a little more clear what does and doesn't fit a Death Metal festival, than what does and doesn't fit a Prog Metal festival. By its very definition, Prog is much more ambiguous.

My point is that there are bands that combine the best of both worlds that could fit on either bill and the death metal fans generally seem to be more open-minded about those bands. It's just speculation on my part.

Yes, but there's a reason for this. Most Death Metal fans are accustomed to both clean and harsh vocals, whereas many Prog fans aren't. And to that end, there are certain deal breakers within the Death Metal sound (for Prog fans), that simply don't exist when you reverse the equation.

For example, if Mastodon were to headline the next Prog Power, the complaint level would go through the roof.

Of course it would, they simply don't fit. There's nothing progressive or Power about them. And don't tell me their sound has been progressive within the Metal genre as a whole, because Neurosis was doing that sound well before Mastodon. Plus, Mastodon's vocals are simply horrid (I'm speaking by Death or Black Metal standards).

But if Enslaved headlined Maryland Death Fest the complaint level would be much lower.

Why wouldn't it be lower? Enslaved started their career as a Black Metal band and evolved. Mastodon didn't start their career as a Prog Metal band. Your analogy is, in essence, a straw man argument. How do you think the Maryland crowd would treat Pagan's Mind? I'm guessing, not well. And hey, Nils throws in the occasional death growl.

And as I said, people seemed pumped about Cynic headlining and they employ so few growls that they ended up using pre-recorded growls on their reunion tour in Europe. Their stuff is mostly clean vocals and Dream Theater- ish riffs.

Cynic is one of the founders of the genre. Using a Death Metal band, to demonstrate how open-minded Death Metal fans are, seems like an odd way to make a point.

Zod

 

[Cheiron]

I don't know if I'd say Canvas Solaris is carrying the torch for tech metal, but they are damn good.

2007 is the year of the tech for a lot of tech metal fans. Behold...the Arctopus (and related side projects), Canvas Solaris, and Blotted Science all had incredible albums this year.

heh. If Protest the Hero was brought to ProgPower I wouldn't bitch. Because they are a form of prog.

-However- for some people here 'prog' (for this festival at least) means 'derivative of Yes and early-Genesis.' Anything straying from that is not meant for this festival. I don't know why there are fights over the term prog. Seems to me that it should just mean what it did 'not as simple as that shit that people listen to on the radio.... except for the ones that are on the radio... oh damn' Nevermind. Or how about... to borrow from a definition of bebop 'We play prog because jocks can't.' There we go.



I think the worst definition of prog I've seen is 'band who changes from album to album.' Yeah. Every trend following band is prog.

 

[Purveyor Of Evil]

Thank you.




No worries; I did mean genre founders, but it's all good.



Look, sugar:
To imply that I am a contradiction of terms is rude enough, but to use my SN as your foundation for your argument is just silly.
If you think I was too harsh on you, my apologies...but I have my own opinions on what is or isn't prog, as well as what does or doesn't completely suck to me.
I realize that alot of you on this board have this thing for growling vocals and that's your right, but don't try to nail me on my SN because my idea of PROGRESSIVE doesn't mesh with yours.



Gee, the folks out there that comprise the bands and the fans that comprise the technical metal subgenre are going to be very hurt that you have eradicated them from existence.
Maybe you're a little wet behind the ears and haven't been around too long, but technical metal has been around since god knows when; at least the mid-eighties.
A lot of the technical metal bands have been inspiration and fuel for the prog metal genre, and bands like Fates Warning have even admitted strong influences from the classic technical metal sound.
In fact, the Perfect Symmetry album is more of a technical metal album than a prog album anyhow.
*opens floodgates*
For years there was a technical metal forum called Exact Science on the Perpetual Motion board dedicated to this small but absolutely valid subgenre.
Some people call technical metal bands "musician's music" because the complexity of the music tends to appeal to musicians as opposed to the average listener.
Growling vocals are not a prerequisite for technical metal, but here's a few technical metal bands that somehow are seemingly defying your claim that their genre does not exist:
Watchtower
Spastic ink
Manitou
Cynic
Canvas Solaris is carrying the torch for technical metal currently, and doing a damn fine job of it.
One could even argue that Zero Hour are a classic technical metal band.
Prog metal is not as minimalist and as disjointed as technical metal.


As a side note, I don't need to fish for excuses to hate death metal vocals.
I know why I hate the growling:
Because it SOUNDS LIKE SHIT.
I also think that high falsetto vocals can suck just as much as the growling.
These are opinions (although I know many who would state that they are fact.)
Oh, and for you to claim that technical metal isn't a valid subgenre, but that tech death is?
Well shit, bub...that's just plain stupid.

You know, the saddest thing about all of this is that these subgenres of genres are doing nothing but divide people who would most likely run into eachother at shows on a regular basis...

Now then.
If we are all done chewing on eachother's asses and throwing our respective dicks around, does anyone here have anything relevant to add to this discussion?
Or can we get back to discussing the rest of the roster?
:Smug:

I never said AMORPHIS was prog. And, I really don't care what they are. If you don't like growling, that's all well and good, but don't rag because some of us like it. Don't watch AMORPHIS perform. There's your easy solution. Who are you to be the vocal police? You said in your original post that vocals should only be sung a certain way. It's there. I reread your post. Yet, you became intensely irate with me when I was trying to be as civil as possible. Your comments about me bringing up your screen name are ludicrous. I just went with the obvious. You picked your screen name. I will no longer reply to your posts because I don't like your tone or see the need for it.

 

[Cheiron]

Saying people shouldn't growl is like saying guitars shouldn't be distorted.

But I don't know if she said that since I didn't read her initial post =p

 

[Jim LotFP]

Prog metal is not as minimalist and as disjointed as technical metal.

Tech metal, minimalist?

I think you should lay out your definitions for every single thing you're talking about here, because it seems like you're talking in so many circles I'm surprised you haven't screwed yourself into the ground. You're trying to come up with official-sounding explanations when "I don't like it" is all you've really got to back it up.

 

[nailz]

 

[Cheiron]

Tech metal, minimalist?

I think you should lay out your definitions for every single thing you're talking about here, because it seems like you're talking in so many circles I'm surprised you haven't screwed yourself into the ground. You're trying to come up with official-sounding explanations when "I don't like it" is all you've really got to back it up.

Actually. Ron Jarzombek's solitary confinement CD could be said to be minimalist at times. For example, an entire song out of the B note. Or only a few notes for an entire song. Just a billion notes a minute.

But yeah. Minimalism and tech metal don't go together too well... too often.

Perhaps she's saying that tech metal doesn't tend to have as many chord changes as say an early Dream Theater song. Or as high of concepts. But... I have to disagree. And I think that Blotted Science - Machinations of Demise agrees with me. Even if it uses a Circle of 12 tones to compose.

 

[Burke]

I have always supported Glenn and progpower since PP2 and will continue to do so.

Hey ALWAYS has SOMETHING that appeals to me and has the best damn festival for music in the US

All that aside, MY PERSONAL cold hard facts:

- Glenn let me see SUPERIOR and ARK on US soil

- He got CONCEPTION back together again who I NEVER DREAMED I would see live

- RIVERSIDE in '08


With just that right there (not to mention all the other great music I have experienced at the fest), Glenn has enough 'credit' built up at this point to last through PP 20 with me

 

[Jim LotFP]

Actually. Ron Jarzombek's solitary confinement CD could be said to be minimalist at times. For example, an entire song out of the B note. Or only a few notes for an entire song. Just a billion notes a minute.

Jarzombek is in a class of his own. That album there... it's not even proper compositions, really, just a sketchbook of little musical ideas (whereas Spastic Ink would be what such sketches might turn into when fully detailed)... is it even proper to consider it in this argument?

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Zod,

Cynic was credited as a death metal band because of their demos and because of Paul and Sean's involvement with Death. Focus is hardly a straight up death metal album. Opeth is heavier. The new song the band has been playing live doesn't even have growls, so we'll see what their new album will be like. Also if you look at the majority of the bands booked for Maryland Death Fest, they are obscure grindcore bands. There are death metal bands of many different styles that have played int he past (Arsis, Necrophagist, Vital Remains being on the more melodic end of the death metal spectrum), but also Municipal Waste, Cynic, Nuclear Assault and plenty others who wouldn't fit in the death/grind category at ALL have been booked, and the response is mostly enthusiasm. Take that for what you will.

Also, Mastodon is definitely progressive (the band's own admission). I fail to see how they are not.

Prog_Muse,

Once again there is no such genre is technical metal. There is a genre called technical death metal (tech death for short), because there are a group of death metal bands that have similar riffs and musical themes (Yngwie style solos is one of the main staples) and thus, we have the subgenre. There are plenty of metal bands that are "technical". Dream Theater is technical. Symphony X is technical. One can even argue that Slipknot is technical. To say that all three of these bands could be lumped together into one subgenre is just incorrect. And as I have said earlier, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine though and I think you are simply wrong.

 

[Prog_Muse]

Tech metal, minimalist?

I think you should lay out your definitions for every single thing you're talking about here, because it seems like you're talking in so many circles I'm surprised you haven't screwed yourself into the ground. You're trying to come up with official-sounding explanations when "I don't like it" is all you've really got to back it up.

Despite the fact that you are being rude as opposed to inquisitive, I will tickle your brainmeats with the following useful information.
Enjoy:
Tech metal is often highly complex, busy, and some would say masturbatory, but there are cases where there is a lot of stark repetition, which is akin to minimalism.
I understand completely if you don't know much about progressive or technical music outside of the "metal" genre...not a whole lot of people do.
One last thing, sweetie...I already expressed that "I don't like it" several times now throughout this mockery of a discussion on the subject of growling vocals...and while "growl" is such a very metal term, it just doesn't do it for me on the grounds that it sounds like shit to me, which I think I just pointed out last night.
Oh, and for the record, Jarzombeck practically spearheaded the tech metal genre (Watchtower, anyone?) so he will always be associated with it, whether he likes it or not.
Thanks for playing...please drive thru.

 

[Rick Pierpont]

Despite the fact that you are being rude as opposed to inquisitive, I will tickle your brainmeats with the following useful information.
Enjoy:
Tech metal is often highly complex, busy, and some would say masturbatory, but there are cases where there is a lot of stark repetition, which is akin to minimalism.
I understand completely if you don't know much about progressive or technical music outside of the "metal" genre...not a whole lot of people do.
One last thing, sweetie...I already expressed that "I don't like it" several times now throughout this mockery of a discussion on the subject of growling vocals...and while "growl" is such a very metal term, it just doesn't do it for me on the grounds that it sounds like shit to me, which I think I just pointed out last night.
Oh, and for the record, Jarzombeck practically spearheaded the tech metal genre (Watchtower, anyone?) so he will always be associated with it, whether he likes it or not.
Thanks for playing...please drive thru.

I don't have a problem with the term "Tech Metal" -- in fact, I use it at times as well. Prog Muse, you hit right on the head with Watchtower. Of course, when I speak of tech metal, the first name that comes to mind is Spiral Architect! I don't think there would be a person on this earth that would argue that Spiral Architect isn't technical -- very technical in fact! And if they do want to argue, I'm not interested.

 

[Cheiron]

Next thing you know I'm going to be told there's no such genre as 'metal'

Only 'heavy metal' 'death metal' 'progressive metal'

ugh.

I've never heard of 'technical' being applied to anything but metal.

But genres are only used to explain music to people since we as humans always seem to try to categorize things. If we can't categorize it then the majority of people think it must be shit.

That said its really hard to write a music review without using genre terms. Sadly that's because if you can use a genre term the band isn't exactly doing much new =p

 

[Jim LotFP]

Despite the fact that you are being rude

... and you're the embodiment of sweetness and light...

Tech metal is often highly complex, busy, and some would say masturbatory, but there are cases where there is a lot of stark repetition, which is akin to minimalism.

OK, I see what you're saying there.

Oh, and for the record, Jarzombeck practically spearheaded the tech metal genre (Watchtower, anyone?) so he will always be associated with it, whether he likes it or not.

Watchtower was already in my CD player when the notification of this reply arrived. You're not teaching anyone anything here...

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

It's too broad of a term and simply doesn't exist/isn't accepted with most metal fans. Dillinger Escape Plan is technical, Lamb Of God is technical, and Zero Hour is technical. Lumping all those bands together is wrong. The reason why there is a indeed an "accepted" genre called technical death metal is because there are a large group (I could probably rattle off 100 easy) of death metal bands that share a specific style and are very different from say Possessed or Nocturnus.

Hell Mike from Opeth wrote recently that the new album has a few "tech death" riffs. It's a specific identifiable style. Just straight up being technical is not.

edit: Sorry for steering away from the thread