A theory on the lack of great new bands...

Nice work, Magius. I think it's always good to challenge the conventional wisdom, but you've built a pretty airtight case proving that the conventional wisdom (heavy metal took a huge dip in mainstream popularity between the 80s and 90s) is correct in this case.

Remember, particularly in the context of this thread, this is not about how you or I were cool enough to be clued into the underground and were unaffected by the dip, or how there there were still lots of great bands making great records. It's about how the profile of heavy metal dropped in the *mainstream* of society. Zod's theory presents it as a numbers game: to produce 10 great bands, you require 1000 great guitarists, which requires 1,000,000 kids to be inspired to pick up a guitar, which requires 10,000,000 people listening to heavy metal, which requires mainstream popularity, major label support, and radio play. When that support evaporates and the 10,000,000 drops to 10,000, you and I upping that number to 10,002 isn't going to have any effect on the number of great bands produced.

And according to the theory, there is no real need to differentiate between "hard rock" and "heavy metal". Guitarists inspiring kids to pick up a guitar and play it loud and ostentatiously is the key requirement. That means "hard rock" may actually be *more* important than "heavy metal", since the hopes of banging hot chicks can be hugely inspirational.

Neil
 
You know, I thought there was some actual serious change in Wikipedia - it went from being a total non-reliable source a few years ago to something to be considered a very good source of information. I remember reading something about it recently, that "wikipedia wasn't as bad as people used to call it." I often refer to it (not as only source obviously), and for the most it's been pretty accurate.
 
Zod's theory presents it as a numbers game: to produce 10 great bands, you require 1000 great guitarists, which requires 1,000,000 kids to be inspired to pick up a guitar, which requires 10,000,000 people listening to heavy metal, which requires mainstream popularity, major label support, and radio play. When that support evaporates and the 10,000,000 drops to 10,000, you and I upping that number to 10,002 isn't going to have any effect on the number of great bands produced.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at.

And according to the theory, there is no real need to differentiate between "hard rock" and "heavy metal". Guitarists inspiring kids to pick up a guitar and play it loud and ostentatiously is the key requirement. That means "hard rock" may actually be *more* important than "heavy metal", since the hopes of banging hot chicks can be hugely inspirational.
Again, 100%. How many Death Metal and Black Metal bands were inspired to pick up an instrument because they were originally turned on to "Metal" by Motley Crue or Kiss? Many. Very few people come from a world of Puddle of Mud and Matchbox 20, hear an Extreme Black Metal song once and become a fan. For most people, it starts with something mainstream, which eventually leads the listener down a deep and winding rabbit hole. Consequently, the absence of "mainstream" Metal has a ripple effect on all genres.
 
Top 100 Metal albums of the 90s voted on by readers of Metal Storm:
Keep in mind, my argument has never been that there was an absence of great music in the 90s. The 90s still had the advantage of having a ton of fresh blood, who were exposed to Metal in the 80s. However, the underground nature of the majority of bands you listed, kept the next generation of musicians from being exposed to it in large numbers. Consequently, there is a shortage of inspired artists today.
 
Keep in mind, my argument has never been that there was an absence of great music in the 90s. The 90s still had the advantage of having a ton of fresh blood, who were exposed to Metal in the 80s. However, the underground nature of the majority of bands you listed, kept the next generation of musicians from being exposed to it in large numbers. Consequently, there is a shortage of inspired artists today.

Right...and I was just responsing to the statement that Grunge "killed" Metal...it obviously did not...it just got more popular on mainstream radio & MTV (public conciousness)...
 
Nice work, Magius. I think it's always good to challenge the conventional wisdom, but you've built a pretty airtight case proving that the conventional wisdom (heavy metal took a huge dip in mainstream popularity between the 80s and 90s) is correct in this case.

Remember, particularly in the context of this thread, this is not about how you or I were cool enough to be clued into the underground and were unaffected by the dip, or how there there were still lots of great bands making great records. It's about how the profile of heavy metal dropped in the *mainstream* of society. Zod's theory presents it as a numbers game: to produce 10 great bands, you require 1000 great guitarists, which requires 1,000,000 kids to be inspired to pick up a guitar, which requires 10,000,000 people listening to heavy metal, which requires mainstream popularity, major label support, and radio play. When that support evaporates and the 10,000,000 drops to 10,000, you and I upping that number to 10,002 isn't going to have any effect on the number of great bands produced.

And according to the theory, there is no real need to differentiate between "hard rock" and "heavy metal". Guitarists inspiring kids to pick up a guitar and play it loud and ostentatiously is the key requirement. That means "hard rock" may actually be *more* important than "heavy metal", since the hopes of banging hot chicks can be hugely inspirational.

Neil

I agree with your representative numbers, and I consider your point on inspiration to be a very important element. The hope of banging hot chicks is, while I recognize the tongue in cheek nature of your statement, definately a motivator. No doubt that hope inspired masses of teenage boys to pick up a guitar, and form Metal bands. However, most of those boys would be content if they achieved that goal at the cover band level playing local clubs.

What lack of mainstram support took from Metal was the concept of "The Dream." The slim possibility that they could actually make it. The opportunity that they could be the next Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhodes, or KK Downing. The chance to be a star. The loss took from those kids the role models who's posters they put up on their walls and dreamed to emulate.

It took from them the visions of Learjets, and mansions, and limo's. Even barring that level of success it took from them the possibility of even making a living at something they loved to do. True, the greatest success wouldn't have happened for most of them. but the possibility provided the greatest inspiration of all, hope.

Playing sloppy seconds in clubs to get laid can motivate a kid to pick up an instrument, and become adequate at it. To aspire to be great, to experiment, to innovate, to practice for hours until your fingers bleed requires something more. It requires the possibility of a pay off for all the hard work and dedication. Because without that there is no goal. No point.

Pundits will claim that passion should be enough. However, they will do so as they live comfortably doing whatever it is they do. The concept of the starving artist may be charming for them. For the artists it just means they're hungry.

Some do choose to play Metal for the love of it. Some of them are even really talented. Here in Atlanta I love seeing Eclipsed by Sanity play, and I think they're by far the best local Metal talent in town. I've watched them since before they were out of high school, and have seen them develop and grow their skills. Val is an excellent young guitarist, and IMO has the possibility of become great.

Unfortunately, as it is now most of those who read this will never hear or see EbS, which is a loss to you. Equally as bad is the fact that, unless things change, eventually EbS will probably hang it up in order to have real lives and careers. Sad as it may be, they desreve to be able to make a living as much as anyone else.

The possibilty is slowly reemerging, and has reached a point where more and more musicians can actually eek out a living playing Traditional, Power, or Progressive Metal if they're lucky. But for at least ten years even that wasn't the case. The experience of Matt Barlow should attest to that quite clearly.

I don't know, maybe there is no lack of great new bands. Chances are that there's an EbS in every city, and even several in some of the larger cities. However, it doesn't matter whether there are no new great bands, or if there are but we never hear them. What the Hell's the difference?

Wikipedia is an acceptable reference in academic circles and has been demonstrated to be as accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

The problem with Wikipedia is (or maybe was) that almost anyone can (or could) edit or completely rewrite an entry and post it. The entry on Power Metal, for example, has been completely revamped several times. Origionally, it was pretty accurate, but completely rewriten by someone who clearly had no clue. The second contributer seemed to think that Power Metal was exclusively about Rhapsody, dragons, and elves. Fortuantely, the newest version has been revised to more closely reflect the first, although it lacks some of the original depth. It could be that the first author overwrote the second, or a completely different party altogether did it. there's no way to know since they don't accredit the authors.

It could be that they've revised their policies, and now vet submitted entries before they post them. However, they used to have instantaneous updates by anyone, and I've seen some dubious stuff there.
 
The entire model of how a band makes a living has changed. Plus, there is the distinction between those wanting to become Rock Stars and those who simply want to support themselves/their family by playing original music (ie Ego vs. career)...
 
Cool topic, Greg!! I was around when everyone said rock and roll was a fad -that was 45+ years ago!! Don was right about guitar styles - it kinda depends on who influenced the musicians when these folks were 12 - 15 years old. In the mid 60s, no one knew anything about how to play the guitar like the do now - shredding, feedback, harmonics, etc. It took innovtors like McGuinn, Clapton, Beck and Page (at first) just to get metal guitar going. Then, there were a couple of jump-staters like Hendrix and Kath (RIP, both), to show the world feedback didn't have to be bad and this is how you play fast.

My opinion, as Neil Young once said, rock and roll, in some form or fashion, will never die. What has always attracted me to this music is the energy. People will always be drawn to that, IMHO.

To second what Greg said, check out Six Minute Century. They will open the Showcase a PP this year on Thursday, so don't miss this extremely technical, but still kick ass band. Kinda imagine Dream Theater on steriods with Tony Harnell singing!!

Pece,
Chris :headbang:
 
Every time I see this, I wonder if any of the people voting were Death fans BEFORE Chuck died.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled arguing.

Believe it or not, Death had fans before Chuck died. The two discs that you quoted are the only two, in my opinion which are even listenable. "Individual Thought Patterns" hinted at a more technical direction and does have a few redeemable qualities, but "Symbolic" was masterful and " Sound of Perseverance" was stunning!

But, the list does cover a ton of underground bands that I am honestly surprised to see in a Top 100 list.
 
Believe it or not, Death had fans before Chuck died.

I know they did. I saw every Death show in my area, whenever it was. There just weren't that many Death fans at them. They drew pretty well, but the way everything Death is lionized now, you'd think they were playing arenas.

The two discs that you quoted are the only two, in my opinion which are even listenable. "Individual Thought Patterns" hinted at a more technical direction and does have a few redeemable qualities, but "Symbolic" was masterful and " Sound of Perseverance" was stunning!

It's noted that it's your opinion, but ITP and Human are the equal to those two - in fact, I'd rate SoP the worst of the four.

However, this does hint at something that's aligned with the topic: Chuck was striving to do something original - to become greater than the sum of his influences. How many bands do that in metal anymore?
 
Every time I see this, I wonder if any of the people voting were Death fans BEFORE Chuck died.

I wonder if that really matters. For instance, I only got into Death after Chuck had passed. I like the band, though wouldn't call myself a die-hard.

Does it really make a difference?