Are humans inherently evil?

[Blowtus]

good job at not getting the point however, you are an awesome philosopher

Is it the role of the 'awesome philosopher' to interpret dribble into something meaningful?

You say it is 'wrong' for anything to be done to another against their will. I provided a pretty easy to understand example of why that would be a relatively shallow / useless viewpoint.

 

[razoredge]

No the dribble was using an example of breaking a petti law and recieving accountability to miss the point, but alas I guess you just are not very deep. Gee lets see, Im breaking the speed limit, I might get a speeding ticket, I really dont want to get a speeding ticket but I know Im not supposed to go this fast..... Im now climbing through some womans window, to punch her in the head so I can cram my knees down into her thighs, thus spreding her legs so I can dry fuck her, then stab her a few dozen times when Im done... I can see the corrolation between forcing a woman to participate in that and being written a speeding ticket for breaking a law, good job, you are so profound, how I could have missed the connection is beyond me.

Ah yeas... I can clearly see your confusion because I dont word posts in a matter that is up to your specifications so as you could figure it out. Are you one of those instructions guys ? Need everything spelled out for you in little step by step increments before the mind begins to get the picture ?

 

[Blowtus]

You said it was simple, yet then say you don't / can't discuss it in a manner that is at least vaguely accurate. Rather than assume you're merely incapable at conveying your thoughts via a keyboard, I figured you were probably just wrong with 'its simple'.

 

[razoredge]

Sorry I insulted you basic logic against your will, it was a truely evil act on my part.

So I guess I would need to make a list of what would be considered wrongfully harmful acts forced upon one person by another. Then go through a few days of argument on whether they were really wrong and harmful because someone would surely pull the "its accepted in some cultures" or "was accepted at one time" trump card. Because we all know everyone is in agreement with the ways of the society they live in. So in the end it would be determined by the great minds of this forum that there is no such thing as evil and people should have the right to do what ever they choose to anyone they choose because we are great new age forward thinking philosphers ?

Yet again it all seems so simple to me.

Tonight in the news: Two men stopped a rapist in the act in Central Park, said rapist claimed these men were evil for stopping him because he didnt want to be stopped, he has filed hate crime charges against his two assailants. The victim of the rapist has said she is unsure which of the three actually performed an act of wrong doing and is unwilling to press charges against either of the three. However the DA's office has tried to convince her to press charges against her will so she has now filed charges of a hate crime against the DA's office.

Such a conundrum... understanding life

 

[Einherjar86]

What about this scenario:

A young woman runs away from home because she's tired of her controlling, oppressive household. She experiments with drugs and free sex, and eventually falls in league with an enigmatic, seemingly pragmatic man who explains things to her in what she believes to be perfect light/flawless understanding. He convinces her to help him kill some people whom he believes to be "evil." They've done nothing against him or the girl. So the young girl helps the man kill these "evil" people.

What are we to believe about a situation such as this? Who is truly evil?

 

[razoredge]

Who cares so long as the surface population is reduced.

First the teenage girl is a selfish, pouty, little wack job who only cares about impressing herself and being rebellious, "because no one has the right to tell me what to do, just give me some money"... so far just A typical teenage drama queen, now shes left home, and would die before she admits to being unhappy, uncertain and made a big mistake, she gets what she deserves, which in this scenerio should be a public hanging on the day of conviction.

Then we have the predatorial man who knows how easy it is to manipulate particular young girls. He is what he is, summed in the first sentence, and gets what he deserves, which in this scenerio should be slow torture until dead, upon the day of conviction and drawn out at least a week but no longer due to having a tight budget.

Now I know nothing about the people they assasinated so how am I to judge them ? Were they wallstreet types, speculators ? Were they corporate criminals ? Were they government employees who lack independant thought ? Government officials only pursueing their own personal agenda ? Were they just regular people trying to get through life the best they could, having no adverse affect on others ?

 

[Silver Incubus]

I think evil may be definable depending on the ends and intent of the person. To be "evil" is to knowingly cause distress, pain, and misery to otherwise innocent persons, whom in the same situation would not do so to the offender. A good current example is the murdering of a man on a bus in Manitoba. The man whom was sleeping at the back of the bus listening to music was brutally stabbed repeatedly by a complete stranger and ended in decapitation. Now, they did not know each other, probably never talked to one another yet the murderer chose him to die for no reason at all. This can be considered an evil act since its intent was only to cause distress misery and pain. Any time that there is NEEDLESS pain, suffering, death and misery could be considered evil, when a less severe alternative would meet the same ends.

 

[Einherjar86]

Who cares so long as the surface population is reduced.

First the teenage girl is a selfish, pouty, little wack job who only cares about impressing herself and being rebellious, "because no one has the right to tell me what to do, just give me some money"... so far just A typical teenage drama queen, now shes left home, and would die before she admits to being unhappy, uncertain and made a big mistake, she gets what she deserves, which in this scenerio should be a public hanging on the day of conviction.

Then we have the predatorial man who knows how easy it is to manipulate particular young girls. He is what he is, summed in the first sentence, and gets what he deserves, which in this scenerio should be slow torture until dead, upon the day of conviction and drawn out at least a week but no longer due to having a tight budget.

Now I know nothing about the people they assasinated so how am I to judge them ? Were they wallstreet types, speculators ? Were they corporate criminals ? Were they government employees who lack independant thought ? Government officials only pursueing their own personal agenda ? Were they just regular people trying to get through life the best they could, having no adverse affect on others ?

You're being unfair to the teenage girl.

Finally, tell me what you would say about any of the things you mentioned in the final paragraph. So what if they were government officials pursuing their own agenda? Does that give some manipulative man the right to take their lives?

 

[Blowtus]

I think evil may be definable depending on the ends and intent of the person. To be "evil" is to knowingly cause distress, pain, and misery to otherwise innocent persons,

To whom do we look for the definition of 'innocent'? The law - which can in some countries be totalitarian militias? Religion? What we ourselves 'reckon'? I'd bring up the speeding ticket example again. As far as I'm concerned I'm innocent of wrong doing, to call the police 'evil' seems a little far fetched.

 

[razoredge]

Im not sure if its manipulative or maybe you still talking about your scenerio but YES, I personally feel there are people in our government whos heads should roll and that is retro active as well. We once hung traitors in this country, lack of still doing so has lead to all kinds of corruption and ignoreing the job they are hired to do... they are civil servants, nothing more.

While you feel that is unfair to the teenage girl, she turned on her family, her own flesh and blood. She wanted a roof over her head, food to eat and play money, yet wanted to do as she damn well pleased while her so called controlling parents were trying to keep her head straight. Mistake #1. Then as she ate her pride allowed herself to lower her standards and drift aimlessly. Mistake #2. Then out of desperation, still riding the wave of her stubborn pride in desperation decided she has a new "daddy" who in reality is a real jackoff, her mind is mush from doing drugs and allowing herself to be used as a piece of meat when all she wanted was love that she had at home but she turned on them. Mistake #3. Now she allows her new daddy to convince her to take the life of people that she doesnt even know. Mistake #4... In what 2 years ? Now granted these are hard times for the average individual but this particular individual is proving to be below average and perhaps has some issues in the first place.

 

[Blowtus]

That there are 'some' in government whose 'heads should roll' (I'll leave out the question of their evility) is hardly an argument that all involved in the process of governing are doing wrong.

 

[razoredge]

True, some are complaciently "just doing my job". Which is best translated "not doing much". The aspects of government in this country are all encompassing and actual positive changes seem elusive, usually just more laws to turn more civilians into criminals to produce numbers for various "departments" to justify their funding. Abuse of power exists within all of these departments and the rest, complacient, cashing a paycheck and accumulating their weeks/months of vacation and lifetime benefits. Pretty good gig really being how there is only so much work and limited security selling used cars or telemarketing

 

[Blowtus]

I vaguely recall that you're in the US. I'm not. Not that I'm suggesting they are necessarily much different.

It's easy to latch on to the bad. Personally I'm a fan of a number of things my government helps in the provision of.

 

[razoredge]

Yes, I knew that, this countrys entire operations is very frustrating and a quagmire of incompetent employees. When I got trapped in the systematic chaos of one of the departments a few years back (I also dealt with another department for 20 years) I came up with a joke/riddle/saying... "whats the difference between a person on social services and a social servant ? The cost of their keep "

 

[monoxide_child]

What about this scenario:

A young woman falls in league with a man who convinces her to help him kill some people whom he believes to be "evil." the young girl helps the man kill these "evil" people.

What are we to believe about a situation such as this? Who is truly evil?

this question is adressed (but not really answered) in the Marvel comics story arcs where Daredevil interacts with The Punisher
The Punisher is going around killing people and he knows that (at this point in the comic) Daredevil insistantly refuses to kill anyone
the Punisher sees himself as a "hero" because he's specifically killing those people that "deserve to die"
the Punisher understands that Daredevil has somesort of superpowers and he feels that Daredevil is not worthy of the powers and is an ineffective superhero because he refuses to kill people
Daredevil on the other hand
is refusing to kill people out of his sense of ethics/morality so when he sees The Punisher going around killing dozens of people, Daredevil sees The Punisher as being the same as a serial killer
the question's never really answered
is The Punisher a hero for killing the people that deserve to die?
or is is killing completely totally evil humans still wrong and Daredevil is doing the right thing by refusing to kill people?

 

[Einherjar86]

While you feel that is unfair to the teenage girl, she turned on her family, her own flesh and blood. She wanted a roof over her head, food to eat and play money, yet wanted to do as she damn well pleased while her so called controlling parents were trying to keep her head straight. Mistake #1. Then as she ate her pride allowed herself to lower her standards and drift aimlessly. Mistake #2. Then out of desperation, still riding the wave of her stubborn pride in desperation decided she has a new "daddy" who in reality is a real jackoff, her mind is mush from doing drugs and allowing herself to be used as a piece of meat when all she wanted was love that she had at home but she turned on them. Mistake #3. Now she allows her new daddy to convince her to take the life of people that she doesnt even know. Mistake #4... In what 2 years ? Now granted these are hard times for the average individual but this particular individual is proving to be below average and perhaps has some issues in the first place.

razor, all the "mistakes" you claim she made stem from a specific system of your own personal morals and values that you cannot force on others. You obviously have very firm beliefs in family first. What if she ran away from her family because she couldn't stand her alcoholic mother, and her father was never at home but always at work. Or, go ahead and develop some other scenario. There are dozens of factors that could be at play. Furthermore, even if she was treated fairly well in her household, family values is not a universal moral system. I know you think you're right, but parents in other cultures exile their children. Why is it then wrong for a child in our culture to exile himself or herself from her parents? We are slaves to cultural conventions. Breaking away from these conventions is not necessarily "bad," but is frowned upon in our society, as demonstrated in your post.

 

[Silver Incubus]

To whom do we look for the definition of 'innocent'? The law - which can in some countries be totalitarian militias? Religion? What we ourselves 'reckon'? I'd bring up the speeding ticket example again. As far as I'm concerned I'm innocent of wrong doing, to call the police 'evil' seems a little far fetched.

Well the definition of innocence in this CONTEXT is that the person is undeserving of the misery, pain, and despair by the person doing the act. If you would have read my example I pretty much Gave a ratio' example. Not all laws in society can be seen as just. Speeding is an understandable law made to protect others from dangerous speeds and the horrors of accidents at those speeds. The policeman is not evil in this context because even though you were not endangering peoples live at that time, you could have killed someone and its their job to prevent that as much as possible. Yet if the policeman pulls you out of your car and beats you, could be considered evil based on the use of force being unnecessary, and is clearly their intention to give you misery, pain, and suffering.

So you would not be innocent if for example you tricked someone out of a substantial bit of money. In this case the person you tricked could take his revenge and not be evil, enacting justice for the knowing intent of the swindle. A government definitely can be evil depending on how it victimizes its people. That totalitarian militia gov probably abuses its people, making laws that are unjust (and reasonably so) and many people are punished out of accordance of whatever crime they commit.

 

[razoredge]

razor, all the "mistakes" you claim she made stem from a specific system of your own personal morals and values that you cannot force on others. You obviously have very firm beliefs in family first. What if she ran away from her family because she couldn't stand her alcoholic mother, and her father was never at home but always at work. Or, go ahead and develop some other scenario. There are dozens of factors that could be at play. Furthermore, even if she was treated fairly well in her household, family values is not a universal moral system. I know you think you're right, but parents in other cultures exile their children. Why is it then wrong for a child in our culture to exile himself or herself from her parents? We are slaves to cultural conventions. Breaking away from these conventions is not necessarily "bad," but is frowned upon in our society, as demonstrated in your post.

Fighting ones own society to the point that you drew the scenerio from is overly radical. Many times runners are also spoiled little girls. None the less in your scenerio you still painted a picture of an insecure girl allowing herself to be depleted of independent thought and decided to take life of those that brought her no harm. I strongly suspect some emotional instability in the first place and thats assuming that drugs arent talking. We can look at the history of Charles Mansons entourage to see this in play. Myself I have looked at that wack job and wondered what kind of weak personality could have ever fallin for a single word that came out of his mouth.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, it would be a personality that suffers from insecurity, probably due to its upbringing and previous life experiences. The blame cannot be placed on an individual because he or she suffers from insecurity due to an unstable home life.

 

[razoredge]

Then that means you dont believe in accountability ?

And also dont believe in mental instabilities at birth ?

Thats what teachers and law does, blames everything on parents.

Whos to say it wasnt caused by watching gore flicks and playing violent video games during ones impressionable years ?

Whos to say it didnt come from a few observations of watching the cops and various governmental departments being bullies.

Whos to say someone isnt twisted at birth ?

Whos to say some doctor didnt do the wrong thing at birth or at some point during a childs life ?

Then regardless why is it not the responsibility of any given person to take accountability for themselves, regardless ? ... wait... isnt that a current goal of our "modern" society, to remove accountability... same as the bible always did "the devil made me do it, I repent... everything is alright now"..... funny that