Are humans inherently evil?

[Einherjar86]

Then that means you dont believe in accountability ?

Explain to me how you came to that conclusion.

And also dont believe in mental instabilities at birth ?

I do.

Thats what teachers and law does, blames everything on parents.

Parents are those most responsible for their children's lives, no matter what the case.

Whos to say it wasnt caused by watching gore flicks and playing violent video games during ones impressionable years ?

This has nothing to do with a child's development, as long as they are properly educated and guided through the matter by their parents. It seems to me that you wish to remove all responsibility from parents. Regardless, the blame will always ultimately fall to them. They should be those most involved with their children's lives. It appears to me that you wish to lighten the load by instituting regulations that limit what society can view simply because you think parents shouldn't have to do the work. If they don't want to raise their children, then they shouldn't have fucking had any.

Whos to say it didnt come from a few observations of watching the cops and various governmental departments being bullies. Whos to say someone isnt twisted at birth ? Whos to say some doctor didnt do the wrong thing at birth or at some point during a childs life ? Then regardless why is it not the responsibility of any given person to take accountability for themselves, regardless ? ... wait... isnt that a current goal of our "modern" society, to remove accountability... same as the bible always did "the devil made me do it, I repent... everything is alright now"..... funny that

Parents take on a huge responsibility when they choose to have children. Every single one of the problems you just mentioned falls within the parents' obligations to discover and manage. If your child is acting strange, do something about it. Talk to your children. Regulate yourself what they're watching on television, don't get others to do it for you.

Parents nowadays are too afraid to talk to their children about things that really matter. Children don't just run away without provocation. They cry for help first. Parents have more responsibility than you want to admit, razor. Children aren't mature as soon as they hit fucking puberty. A lot of work goes into it on the parents' part.

 

[razoredge]

I came to the accountability conclusion due to this statement: The blame cannot be placed on an individual because he or she suffers from insecurity due to an unstable home life. and this : Furthermore, even if she was treated fairly well in her household, family values is not a universal moral system. and this: "You're being unfair to the teenage girl." apparently off the hook ?

Parents - Well, let me see, I raised a daughter whom is now 19, have many friends in the field as well. Thanks for the heads up but there is much you are yet unaware of as were all of us, my friends and myself. Nearly all holds are off when it comes to teens, outside influences are monumental. Influences within the school and the liberal school system itself have many parents fighting a loosing battle. From the time children are in elementary school teachers are telling them their parents are wrong. Other children teaching their little tricks and attitudes, the mass media, internet connection and yes indeed music and movies. Get yourself a hard working dual income family and at least one child... completed, then get back to me on this subject, till then if you havent walked the walk you cant talk the talk... believe me

No, that is not me pulling the age trump card, thats a hand I held you should not have called if you dont like it.

 

[Einherjar86]

Aw, we have fun, don't we?

I came to the accountability conclusion due to this statement: The blame cannot be placed on an individual because he or she suffers from insecurity due to an unstable home life. and this : Furthermore, even if she was treated fairly well in her household, family values is not a universal moral system. and this: "You're being unfair to the teenage girl." apparently off the hook ?

Saying "you can't blame a certain person" doesn't mean I don't believe in blaming anyone. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. It's pretty dumb, if you ask me.

Furthermore, I'm not saying the daughter is blameless. I'm saying that even if she is partially to blame, she isn't wholly to blame. No one is ever wholly to blame. Everyone is accountable. So I guess you were way off the mark with that one. You are being unfair to the girl; but that doesn't mean she's completely off the hook. You want to throw all of the blame upon her, but you can't do that razor. You want everything to be black and white.

Parents - Well, let me see, I raised a daughter whom is now 19, have many friends in the field as well. Thanks for the heads up but there is much you are yet unaware of as were all of us, my friends and myself. Nearly all holds are off when it comes to teens, outside influences are monumental. Influences within the school and the liberal school system itself have many parents fighting a loosing battle. From the time children are in elementary school teachers are telling them their parents are wrong. Other children teaching their little tricks and attitudes, the mass media, internet connection and yes indeed music and movies. Get yourself a hard working dual income family and at least one child... completed, then get back to me on this subject, till then if you havent walked the walk you cant talk the talk... believe me

No, that is not me pulling the age trump card, thats a hand I held you should not have called if you dont like it.

If you're daughter turned out alright, then that's because you did a damn good parenting job, razor. I'm not saying you didn't or that you're a bad parent. It seems as though you feel the need to defend yourself, but no one is questioning your parenting abilities.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion about teachers. I can only assume that you're not being objective at all, but only speaking for the school district(s) that you know of. I'm not sure what you mean by "teachers are telling [kids] their parents are wrong." If you could explain, that would be great. But no matter what the case, you're being extremely biased. It's unfair and ignorant to think that all school teachers are like that. I haven't put a child through a school system yet, but my parents have. And I have to admit, they never experienced this battle against faculty that you did.

I'm not going to get myself a dual income family with at least one child, because I know that I'm not ready for that yet. See, that's the key; preparing oneself. If parents don't have the means or resources to raise a child, then they shouldn't be having any. You, on the other hand, sound as though you were more than capable of doing so. So, once again, stop trying to prove to everyone how successful you were/are as a father. No one is judging you in that respect. All I'm judging is your lack of respect towards people who worked their asses off to teach your children how to write and spell correctly (because, let's face it, we all know that your kids didn't learn how to spell from you).

 

[Blowtus]

Furthermore, I'm not saying the daughter is blameless. I'm saying that even if she is partially to blame, she isn't wholly to blame. No one is ever wholly to blame. Everyone is accountable. So I guess you were way off the mark with that one. You are being unfair to the girl; but that doesn't mean she's completely off the hook. You want to throw all of the blame upon her, but you can't do that razor. You want everything to be black and white.

Blame as a concept becomes useless when you start delving into the 'whys' of the situation. 'The universe did it' is probably the most accurate reason anyone could come up with for bad shit happening, but for practical matters I'm a fan of leaving full blame at the supposedly rational entity - to do otherwise is to disempower (that a word?) people. The view that our own lives is our own damn fault is the only one allowing positive action, imho...

 

[Einherjar86]

Okay, let me reorganize my thoughts and restate my position.

I do believe that people are responsible for their own actions. I believe that each person is accountable for his or her own life. But we live in a world of outside factors. No one can deny the fact that a plethora of influences play upon our daily lives, and at a young age the human mind is very susceptible to these influences. At a young age, humans beings are disempowered, and require intervention on the part of others, most acceptably their parents. Therefore, you cannot blame a person for psychological trauma acquired during his or her infancy or youth. It is a parent's responsibility to recognize these pressures upon a child's life and to act accordingly.

Blowtus, you say you're a fan of "leaving full blame at the supposedly rational entity..." But I'm talking about long-term effects stemming from one's youth, when human beings cannot be expected to be fully empowered. The point is, you cannot immediately jump to the conclusion of leveling blame at just one person. More often than not, multiple people/factors are to blame. Some are simply more at fault than others.

 

[razoredge]

I guess Im on the same wave as Blowtus with this one, I believe in full personal accountability. My fuck ups are mine and I will not share them with anyone... damnit ! Sure we can all go back and find the little obsticals that deflected the ball along the way but choices have consequences. In your scenerio this girl made choices, assuming shes caught... consequences, if not I would think she has a heavy burden to bear anyhow but will prolly attempt to numb it in drugs, further slipping away from reality, yet full of her pride.

As for parenting, I wasnt defending myself, only all parents. I know the buttcakes out there but thats a small percentage, unfortunantly we all dance to their tune, reduced to the lowest common denominator, a full time battle for parents wishing to implant a degree of restraint. You just have the wrong attitude toward parents, there is alot beyond our control and that increases every year. My daughter was so free compared to what my age group was in the 70's. When she became a teenager I got a chance to see the end results of these more liberal times. She was a high honor student, granted this is easier prior to highschool but still top 10% of her class, only struggling with math when it became more advanced (which was advanced math classes) and I could no longer help because I forgot. Then she turned 15, dropped her priorities, became boy crazy and hooked up with a mentally unstable boyfriend, seriously, he was legally diagnosed with mental problems, we did not know this at the time. Well he had to see her all the time, and when he couldnt he held suicide over her head. We had no idea why she was behaving so radically or irrationally, I was suspect and damn near spot on but it was all too late. She made our lifes a total hell, abandoned us, abandoned her friends who also gave her crap about the boy, got the asswipes at social services involved... end of family. Year and a half later, she sees the light and is so ashamed she almost dropped school so she wouldnt have to face her friends, locked her bedroom door and screamed words I would have been "killed" for had I tried them on my father. I got her back in school with help from the court system as I had no choice, they had already disempowered me in her eyes and mine frankly. We got her through school but she is still caught in the after math of this turn she made. Forget about the family, we all live in seperate houses now. So yeah, ol boy, I have been down this road and dont have a frikin good thing to say about it. I help her when she really needs it, that all. Its called tuff love. But no she is not going to become a part of the scenerio you spoke of and does show much of the stature that I inspired in her youth.

Bottom line: There is shit out there that parents have no control over when the hormones kick in, its not always the way you think it is or should be. As far as having children, I did not know I was going to be a father until I was told, it wasnt in my plans lets say... however anyone that has ever bonded with their own baby will never forget the day, its like inheriting a pocket full of cryptonite and needs no instructions, no f'in books, no studying, no planing, a strong person will become ten fold what they had dreamed in abilities and ambition. I think this feeling I got excaped some and its said some mothers never actually bond with thier children, another thing I dont understand, like rape or violent tendencies I believe it is a sickness, and I say that proudly.

 

[razoredge]

Okay, let me reorganize my thoughts and restate my position.

I do believe that people are responsible for their own actions. I believe that each person is accountable for his or her own life. But we live in a world of outside factors. No one can deny the fact that a plethora of influences play upon our daily lives, and at a young age the human mind is very susceptible to these influences. At a young age, humans beings are disempowered, and require intervention on the part of others, most acceptably their parents. Therefore, you cannot blame a person for psychological trauma acquired during his or her infancy or youth. It is a parent's responsibility to recognize these pressures upon a child's life and to act accordingly.

So you begin to see the conundrum, there is hope, lol. Time, it all takes time, education is not exclusive to school nor does it end after, death is the only excape from education

Blowtus, you say you're a fan of "leaving full blame at the supposedly rational entity..." But I'm talking about long-term effects stemming from one's youth, when human beings cannot be expected to be fully empowered. The point is, you cannot immediately jump to the conclusion of leveling blame at just one person. More often than not, multiple people/factors are to blame. Some are simply more at fault than others.

Well we cant start prosecuting parents for their kids fuck ups, though our cry baby clubs who have won over our governing bodys have convinced them to try their damnest.

What kind of area out toward Buffulo do you live in Einherjar ? For my personal reference is why Im asking, then I can understand better where your coming from. Im a tried and true country boy, small town upbringing however, was like a tiny burb in a small village, now Im a "hillbilly" lol

 

[Blowtus]

Therefore, you cannot blame a person for psychological trauma acquired during his or her infancy or youth. It is a parent's responsibility to recognize these pressures upon a child's life and to act accordingly.

Blowtus, you say you're a fan of "leaving full blame at the supposedly rational entity..." But I'm talking about long-term effects stemming from one's youth, when human beings cannot be expected to be fully empowered. The point is, you cannot immediately jump to the conclusion of leveling blame at just one person. More often than not, multiple people/factors are to blame. Some are simply more at fault than others.

Anyone who consciously chooses to do something is to blame for the choice imho. Others may be held to blame for their own conscious actions, such as the emotional torment of the child or whatever. If we are to recognise influencing factors in any consideration of 'blame', why stop at parenting? Like I implied earlier, the only truly accurate description is that it's bloody existence at it again, the naughty thing

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm from Clarence, razor. Wealthy suburban community, lots of families with two kids and a dog, very little crime... your typical Twin Peaks.

Blowtus:
But don't you think that certain responsibilities are awarded (poor choice of words, probably ) to parents when they choose to conceive? During the growth process the human mind is extremely malleable and susceptible to negative influences. These choices, while ultimately the chooser's fault, must also be attributed to the parents. It's a up to a parent to detect uncommon moods or attitudes in their children. If they do detect such things, it's their responsibility to take action. To ignore this fact is basically to say that parents have no responsibility. If their child is mentally sick, it's up to the parents to seek help. The child is not cooperating well with others, so the parents just say "oh well, it's his/her own damn fault"? No, it's their responsibility to look into why their child is acting this way. Later they discover that their child is autistic. The child would have no responsibility to look into treatment for such a problem. It falls to the parents. The same goes for drug use, suicidal tendencies, fighting in school... everything. Parents have a great deal of responsibility towards their children.

 

[Blowtus]

Whether or not they have the 'duty' to act in a certain manner I'm not interested in touching - that they are partially responsible for many facets of their child I'm in complete agreeance with. However I don't feel that child abusers who bear children who turn out to be mass murderers, should be said to be 'to blame' for the mass murders. They can be said to be 'to blame' for some facets of their murderous child though.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, that's where we disagree, I guess. Kids are so impressionable, I don't believe you can completely blame them for turning out fucked up if they had a fucked up childhood. A child's developmental process determines what kind of adult he or she will turn out to be.

 

[Blowtus]

I don't blame them for 'turning out fucked' I just refuse to not blame them for actions they consciously perform. 'My parents caused me', 'I was teased', 'the universe did it' are all just methods of shifting 'blame'. 'Blame' has never been about finding root causes, it's about pointing the fucking finger and making sure people feel responsible for that which they choose to do, regardless of whatever excuses they wish to concoct. Your method probably seems the nicer, more socially tolerable way of considering the matter, particularly these days, but I believe that mine is the only one that grants people the capacity for acting in a manner outside of that which is expected, removed from the excuses that people make for their failures.

 

[razoredge]

My point regarding this is that its not all carved in stone. My good friends parents adapted a baby, he got the same upbringing as my friend which was excellent, but as he got older some really odd stuff started happening, he has now grown up to be a complete loser.

The biggest problem I felt as raising my daughter was the kids whos parents let them do as they pleased, they were unruly, disruptive and high maintainence, then as parents you are continously fighting this. Around here no meant no, not maybe, so many parents say no and then let the kids go ahead anyhow and this teaches them what ? Now turn this around and the parents that kept firm rules and acceptable behavior patterns... when the kids become teenagers, we become the repressive enemy subject to all kinds of blame and become targeted. Its like no one has a fucking clue whats going on and suddenly people that were good parents for 15-16 years become public enemy #1 and everybody goes for it, yet in prior years these unruly children were running around fucking up the works all the time and no body says a word. Adults that fall for the antics of teenagers are retarded, "oh poor poor Angelica, her parents are mean to her and didnt raise her right" NO! bullshit, shes a little manipulative fucking liar, attention whore, period, end of story.

I think I grew up in the wrong town because I didnt see any of this crap going on when I was a teen. We respected parents, understood our role as kids, did what we were told, did our petty share of sneaking when we could get away with it, accepted our punishment when caught, accepted that there was a proper way to communicate with all others. Today everything is upside down, parents dance to the tune of their children... WTF ? Then take the blame when the whole "new" idea falls on its face.

 

[Einherjar86]

But as you said, razor: it's the parents' fault if they let their children get away with stuff like that. That's part of parental responsibility as well, and too many parents refuse to tell their children "no." You sound as though you've done a fine job with your daughter. Unfortunately, there are a great deal of parents who won't take the time or put in the effort to properly discipline/counsel their children.

 

[razoredge]

But as you said, razor: it's the parents' fault if they let their children get away with stuff like that. That's part of parental responsibility as well, and too many parents refuse to tell their children "no." You sound as though you've done a fine job with your daughter. Unfortunately, there are a great deal of parents who won't take the time or put in the effort to properly discipline/counsel their children.

Im not sure anymore if its that or two different points of view (scumbag parents excluded). In the end most of us grow up to be just fine, regardless of liberal or conservative parents. It seems to me now that more old fashion parents like myself payed too heavy of a consequence when we lost control of the situation, where as the more liberal parents never gave a shit to begin with and it was all just another day in paradise. Myself I just felt I need to instill some forms of respect and dignity, but teens lash out at this the hardest. It was fine for my generations upbringing and the ways of the times but today stricter parent are beaten over the head by these new spoken and unspoken rules and laws of our current American society.

My wife has said since that we just lived in a bad area to raise a kid due to the lackadaisical attitude of some parents, but I know it universal no matter where you live, at least in theis country. For example at the extreme, we had parents allowing boy/girl sleep overs (not ins, but we all know kids) and vacation trips at the age of 14-15. So those of us who refused to have anything to do with that became enemies of our own children. Like I said dancing to the lowest common denominator. "Well ____ can do this, why cant I" and there you stand speachless, wondering how the fuck such and such parents could wind up with their anything goes views appearing in your own livingroom.

Sure, no one said it was going to be easy, but let me get my hands on those that make it hard.

Seriously, those three years, erased the first 15 and I personally would never do it again knowing what I know now.

 

[NinjaGeek]

The notion of "good" and "evil" is stupid, it implies some sort of universal sense of right and wrong, but right and wrong are entirely dependent on the person and their point of view. All living creatures are inherently selfish as a manner of survival, and good is merely what benefits us, and evil is what would harm us.

The idea that anything committed against someone's will is invalid in my opinion. You kill and eat animals to survive, and they do the same, this is the nature of the world. We do not kill and eat each other in most situations because it's more beneficial to our survival to have a functioning community where we get along. But when people are stranded out in the middle of no where, and run out of food, they often resort to cannibalism because the need to eat overrides the need to have a community.

You can say there things like rape are always wrong. But what if there's 1 man on earth left and 1 woman on earth left, and the woman doesn't want to have sex. Is it wrong for the man to rape her for the sake of preserving the species? It's easy to sit on your high horse in society, and say "no it's still wrong, I wouldn't do it". But to me it's no different than eating animals for food, and while it's preferable to have sex be consensual so you can work together to raise the child, rape can be necessary under the proper circumstances, as can almost any act that humans can commit.

There's no good, and no evil, simply what we need to do to survive and spread our seed.

 

[Vimana]

I wouldn't say all are. Ants aren't selfish. If they were they would be extinct.

 

[NinjaGeek]

But if acting as a collective is what prevents them from being extinct isn't that selfish? They act mindlessly as one unit for the sake of the good of the whole, so that they have a better chance of survival. It's not selfish in the classic sense, but it is in a manner of speaking it is selfish in the sense that they do it because it's beneficial to them.

 

[Einherjar86]

You can say there things like rape are always wrong. But what if there's 1 man on earth left and 1 woman on earth left, and the woman doesn't not want to have sex. Is it wrong for the man to rape her for the sake of preserving the species?

"Doesn't not want to have sex" means she wants to.

It's easy to sit on your high horse in society, and say "no it's still wrong, I wouldn't do it". But to me it's no different than eating animals for food, and while it's preferable to have sex be consensual so you can work together to raise the child, rape can be necessary under the proper circumstances, as can almost any act that humans can commit.

That's interesting.

I wouldn't say all are. Ants aren't selfish. If they were they would be extinct.

However, there is also the idea of communal conscience. A species such as that of ants would realize that their best chance of surviving would be by working together.

EDIT: ninja'd by the ninja

 

[NinjaGeek]

"Doesn't not want to have sex" means she wants to.

fixed